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studefan
10-25-2015, 09:41 PM
Shouldn't an Avanti this late in the production run have a solid color interior with thick back bucket seats? Owner claims 16K original miles but the front seats don't look right to me. Thoughts?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Studebaker-AVANTI-ORIGINAL-/181913083323?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2a5add5dbb:g:9YgAAOSwYHxWLUwI&item=181913083323

Bob Andrews
10-25-2015, 10:05 PM
Not sure what you're asking, but the seats are solid black. Isn't that correct for those cars?

Bob Caser
10-25-2015, 10:12 PM
Seats should be thick back according to the serial number and should match the dash color and door panels. Plus side it has original carpet. I would like to see the car in person. How those black seats entered the picture is a mystery.

Bob Caser

64studeavanti
10-26-2015, 05:50 AM
I agree with the O.P. The front seats are earlier. I have serial #5408 and it has the thick seats. There are no pictures of the rear seat, so we don't know the correct color. Otherwise it is a nice example and should be worth at least $25,000 IMHO.

Silverplate
10-26-2015, 09:55 AM
Mine is #4986 and has thin seats.

64studeavanti
10-26-2015, 10:59 AM
Best info I have indicates that the seat changed for serial R-5361 in Sept 1963. The newer seats have a 3 piece stitched vinyl back and a tubular steel frame that re-enforced the fiberglass shells. They are thicker due to the Styrofoam padding that was added to cover the steel frame.

00RACER
10-26-2015, 02:15 PM
In the ebay ad I ask you to inquire with questions. Thank you for any and all questions. Attached is a picture of the back seat -please excuse it not being bright as I took it in the garage with the car cover on-I was purposeful at looking at the mounting bolts to see if they ever had a wrench on them and they do not appear as if they did. I checked back on pictures of the car when Burnell and Fettick owned it, and it has the black seats. If you need anything else checked, please let me know.
THANKS

64studeavanti
10-26-2015, 03:07 PM
So for what it is worth, the seats look like they have been replaced/recovered or the rest of the interior was replaced. All information available would indicate that the entire interior should be black. Additionally, Avantis of this vintage would have the thick reinforced seats. The color and grain of the 'wood' vinyl also looks off. Of course, the production order would clear up any mystery.

But for the record, I still think this is a very nice example and should fetch a very good price and I do not intend to be nitpicky. If I didn't already have four, I would be very interested.

00RACER
10-26-2015, 04:49 PM
Here is the production order. Notice what I printed earlier about the x's. Hopefully this helps, as I do not think or know of anything being changed.
I HAVE BEEN ASK THAT QUESTION BEFORE BY STUDEBAKER PEOPLE, AND I DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWER. I HAVE A COPY OF THE BUILD SHEET THAT I COULD EMAIL YOU, AND THE BODY NUMBER,KEY NUMBER,TRUNK KEY NUMBER, ENGINE NUMBER, AND SERIAL NUMBER WERE XD OVER AND NEW NUMBERS BESIDE THEM. MAYBE THAT IS WHAT THE LADY-BETSY GILMORE WANTED. IF YOU WOULD KNOW WHERE I COULD GET THAT ANSWER, PLEASE HELP. THANKS

StudeRich
10-26-2015, 04:57 PM
The Production order shows a Elk Vinyl Interior, so the Seats were Elk before replacement with early '63 Black Seats.

6hk71400
10-26-2015, 05:16 PM
I remember this car. The interior has been a topic of discussion. The question is whether Betsy had it changed by the dealer when she bought it or if the dealer changed it before it was sold. She had the car until she died and in her collection of papers there were several letters about people including Ed Reynolds wanting to buy the car. It was the literal little old lady in tennis shoes that drove the car maybe a mile away to go to the store. It had 13,000 miles on it. My guess and only a guess, is that Betsy liked getting in and out of the car with the thinner seat back and that is why it was changed. As I say, only a guess.

When she died, I got a call from someone handling the estate as to value. I did not put a value on it; suggested they call others and they had decided to place sealed bids on the car. Jim Feddick held back and quietly listened to people talking then at the end of the day placed a bid that was slightly higher than the last bid and won the car. After Jim died, lost track of the car.

Anyway, that is the way the car had seats in it.
Hope this helps

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ

00RACER
10-26-2015, 05:47 PM
WOW! Thanks for clearing up that issue. And I see you are from Tucson where the car resided most of it's life
THANKS AGAIN

NOTHING BETTER THAN A CAR WITH A NICE STORY!!!

StudeRich
10-26-2015, 08:02 PM
The Production order shows a Elk Vinyl Interior, so the Seats were Elk before replacement with early '63 Black Seats.

studefan
10-26-2015, 08:11 PM
Since you have it, you might want to consider adding a copy of the production order in Post 9 to the ebay ad so the bidders know how the car was originally equipped.

WCP
10-26-2015, 09:50 PM
Is it possible that this is one of the earlier Avantis that was recycled by the factory, hence the x-outs. The factory forgot to xxx the ELV on the original order.

StudeRich
10-26-2015, 10:36 PM
Is it possible that this is one of the earlier Avantis that was recycled by the factory, hence the x-outs. The factory forgot to xxx the ELV on the original order.

If that were the case it would have Black Door panels, 1/4 Panels and Dash.

This Car was very likely one of the MFC rejected by Studebaker '63 Bodies that was later updated to late '64 Specs and sold, it was re-Body and Serial Numbered.

lschuc
10-27-2015, 01:12 AM
WOW! Thanks for clearing up that issue. And I see you are from Tucson where the car resided most of it's life
THANKS AGAIN

NOTHING BETTER THAN A CAR WITH A NICE STORY!!!

And this would be a great story for Avanti Magazine. Would you like to put everything together and sent to me with photos for a future issue?

00RACER
10-27-2015, 01:09 PM
Lew
i plan on doing a photo shoot of this car. I will let you know
thanks

Bob Caser
10-27-2015, 02:53 PM
This appears to be a very, very nice Avanti. But , I doubt very much that it left the factory with those black seats. In the car world I have seen stranger happenings being done at the factories. This is a production car, with no special instructions on the build sheet.

Bob Caser

go-studebaker
10-27-2015, 04:15 PM
Hi
I tend to agree with Bob Miles on this
Normally I would not chip in on this sort of subject but I had a similar late model 64 Avanti way into the thick seat build production that also had thin seats. The car was probably changed to thin seats by the dealer as the owner did not like the feel or position of the thick seats.
My car also had a black steering wheel and there would only be a very few people that could tell me why that was.
That sort of stuff does not exist on the factory production orders.
Anyway what do I know, I am at Disneyland Paris with the kids getting pictures with every Disneyland princess I can find........
Regard
Greg Diffen

8E45E
10-27-2015, 07:37 PM
My car also had a black steering wheel and there would only be a very few people that could tell me why that was.

It is explained in the Lamberti paper here: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?55529-The-Lamberti-papers-26-(July-1-1963) #5 under 'Manufacturing'. I know of one other Avanti with black painted instrument cluster and wheel.

Craig

go-studebaker
10-28-2015, 02:40 AM
Hi Craig
Nice one. My car only had that black steering wheel with full wood grain and normal brown tilt steering wheel column. It really looked like the factory should have painted the column black to match it in. I can't think they made many cars with the black wheel though as I have never heard it mentioned before even though they thought that there wouldn't be more than 40. It was probably substantially less.
Regards
Greg

stude dude
10-28-2015, 03:33 AM
Greg, I did read about the factory having a few black wheels floating around in the later days of Avanti production. Apparently they had been sent to Studebaker by the wheel manufacturer for possible use in production.

Chris.

8E45E
10-28-2015, 06:29 AM
Hi Craig
Nice one. My car only had that black steering wheel with full wood grain and normal brown tilt steering wheel column. It really looked like the factory should have painted the column black to match it in. I can't think they made many cars with the black wheel though as I have never heard it mentioned before even though they thought that there wouldn't be more than 40. It was probably substantially less.

One Studebaker executive did not like it at all. http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?54288-The-Lamberti-papers-16 Maybe it was a car he got to use, and had the wheel changed.

Craig

6hk71400
10-28-2015, 11:35 AM
Reading through the post that Craig was fascinating. Although the company was still trying to keep going, distractions about the "dining room" and other things provided insight as to the companies meetings.

It still does not address the questions about this cars interior. For many years in Tucson there was stories about the car and a few people knew about it but were keeping quiet for obvious reasons. Ed Cometz the Studebaker dealer passed away in 1995 so no answer there. Betsy had the car from new but we still are not any closer to why the car was equipped the way it was. Jim did not do anything to the interior just a fresh paint on the outside.

I recall that the thicker back seats were just about the last change on the Avanti before shutdown. If you will notice, it says rush on the order. Did the factory put those seats in because they were available to get the car out before the shutdown? When was the decision made to shut down South Bend? Did Betsy not like the thick seats and have them changed because of the way the car felt getting in and out? Maybe she was thinking the Elk seats would show more dirt than a black seat.

All of this is speculation which we will never really know the answer. Does this detract from the value of the car? I guess only the next buyer will be able to answer that when they vote with there check book. All I know is when the car was sold, at the estate auction, it had the black seats in it and it still does today.

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ

go-studebaker
10-29-2015, 05:22 AM
Bob Miles
It would be stretching it a bit to even consider that it came from the factory like that
Regards
Greg

6hk71400
10-29-2015, 10:39 AM
You are probably right as there is not any notation on the production order. Why the seats were changed again is just speculation, but that is the way the car was from people that serviced the car up to the time Betsy died. This car was rumored around for years and as I stated in a previous post some people knew about the car but never divulged where it was. I only knew it was true when I was contacted by the executors of the estate about value. How they got my name I don't know but I was Newsletter editor and President of our local chapter at one time.

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ

WCP
10-30-2015, 01:02 PM
For a definitive answer as to whether a seat change was made at the factory, late in the preparation, order a copy of the final inspection detail sheets. If done, there would be a notation there. That will cost you $65 to find out.

ddub
10-30-2015, 02:47 PM
Where can you order the inspection sheets?

Bob Langer
10-30-2015, 03:34 PM
Where can you order the inspection sheets?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Studebaker-Avanti-Factory-Inspection-Sheets-/110462680783?hash=item19b816becf:m:mPHMUqBSC9CLjnrhC0XJROw&vxp=mtr

Ted Johnson
01-08-2016, 05:33 AM
Member "64studeavanti" said on 26 October that the 64 Avanti seats changed to the thicker backs at car R-5361, stating that he owns #5408 with those thicker seats. He also stated that there is a tubular steel reinforcement in them that made them thicker. However, I spoke to Linda at Myers Studebaker yesterday who said that only the cars from 5631 up have those thicker seats (the last 18 made). The production order doesn't tell you what size the seats are, only the color.
Not trying to start an argument here, but what is the "Rest of the story"? Did ALL the cars after a certain date come with thicker seats? The final inspection sheet should tell for sure, right? That's forthcoming, will let you know.

53k
01-08-2016, 07:12 AM
Member "64studeavanti" said on 26 October that the 64 Avanti seats changed to the thicker backs at car R-5361, stating that he owns #5408 with those thicker seats. He also stated that there is a tubular steel reinforcement in them that made them thicker. However, I spoke to Linda at Myers Studebaker yesterday who said that only the cars from 5631 up have those thicker seats (the last 18 made). The production order doesn't tell you what size the seats are, only the color.
Not trying to start an argument here, but what is the "Rest of the story"? Did ALL the cars after a certain date come with thicker seats? The final inspection sheet should tell for sure, right? That's forthcoming, will let you know.
Linda is wrong on that statement. I don't remember exactly what number first got the thicker seats, but I own 5527 which has the original thick seats and I formerly owned 5420 which also had thick seats.

8E45E
01-08-2016, 07:31 AM
Member "64studeavanti" said on 26 October that the 64 Avanti seats changed to the thicker backs at car R-5361, stating that he owns #5408 with those thicker seats. He also stated that there is a tubular steel reinforcement in them that made them thicker. However, I spoke to Linda at Myers Studebaker yesterday who said that only the cars from 5631 up have those thicker seats (the last 18 made). The production order doesn't tell you what size the seats are, only the color.
Not trying to start an argument here, but what is the "Rest of the story"? Did ALL the cars after a certain date come with thicker seats? The final inspection sheet should tell for sure, right? That's forthcoming, will let you know.

Post #27 here ---> http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?51160-Avanti-Production-Statistics-now-available states #4765 was tagged 'J. Husvar - experimental trim'. He was the trim engineer, and this 'experimental trim' car was possibly the first with the thicker seats.

Craig

Dwight FitzSimons
01-08-2016, 11:44 AM
My square-headlamp Avanti # R5407 has the late, thick-back buckets, as on all the later '64s I have ever seen. It should also be noted that there were THREE styles of Avanti bucket seats, not two. There was an interim bucket seat on the earlier '64s that looked like the '63 seat, but which had a "straight" backrest, unlike the '63 backrest. In other words, if one placed a yardstick vertically against the backrest (where one would sit) the yardstick would contact the vinyl everywhere. In contrast, with the yardstick placed on a '63 seat there would be a void between the yardstick and the vinyl where the vinyl transitions from pleated to solid. This is difficult to describe, but the effect is that the '63 seat cups one's back whereas the early '64 seat doesn't. IMHO this early '64 seat is the most comfortable of all three.
-Dwight FitzSimons

studegary
01-08-2016, 01:06 PM
My square-headlamp Avanti # R5407 has the late, thick-back buckets, as on all the later '64s I have ever seen. It should also be noted that there were THREE styles of Avanti bucket seats, not two. There was an interim bucket seat on the earlier '64s that looked like the '63 seat, but which had a "straight" backrest, unlike the '63 backrest. In other words, if one placed a yardstick vertically against the backrest (where one would sit) the yardstick would contact the vinyl everywhere. In contrast, with the yardstick placed on a '63 seat there would be a void between the yardstick and the vinyl where the vinyl transitions from pleated to solid. This is difficult to describe, but the effect is that the '63 seat cups one's back whereas the early '64 seat doesn't. IMHO this early '64 seat is the most comfortable of all three.
-Dwight FitzSimons

Thank you for this new news (to me). I have wondered why my 1964 Avanti's seats were more comfortable than the seats in my 1963 Avanti, or any other 1963 Avanti that I have driven for a distance. IIRC, my 1964 was S/N 5176 and did not have the thick seats. I have not owned an Avanti with the thick seats, but I have sat/rode in them and remembering that I did not like them as much as my thin back 1964 seats. All of these cars were original, not reupholstered. Therefore, I agree with you that the early 1964 seat is the best (until you get into some of the later Avantis).

Of course, different seats fit different people. My sister really liked the seats in her Bonneville and drove it hundreds of miles many days. I felt that the seats were very uncomfortable, with no back support. The difference was in our height. She was five feet tall and "snuggled" into the lower area of the seat back. When I sat in the seat, the horizontal cross padding cut across my back and I had no lower back support.

8E45E
07-15-2016, 07:48 PM
Hi Craig
Nice one. My car only had that black steering wheel with full wood grain and normal brown tilt steering wheel column. It really looked like the factory should have painted the column black to match it in. I can't think they made many cars with the black wheel though as I have never heard it mentioned before even though they thought that there wouldn't be more than 40. It was probably substantially less.

Not to be overlooked by that excellent Holmann-Moody article in this month's Turning Wheels is the article on page 44 showing how many Avantis were made with painted black interior trim and steering wheels.

Dale Hurd in Idaho owns one of these Avantis:

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8665/27726744704_aa2d481738_k_d.jpg

And this car is on the list: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?8220-Avanti-interior-combinations

Craig

wise raymond
07-17-2016, 12:48 PM
Deferent bye design