Transmission / Overdrive: 51 Land Cruiser coolant and transmission problems.

[EmersonCollie]

I already know what you are going to say Gordon.. The car had no problems what so ever when you had it. Well no offense, but I need the car to have no problems now, not then..

Transmission is now not shifting in second. Sometimes I have to come to a complete stop in order for it to start over again. I did the fluid change on it months ago and it ran fine in the summer. Well now that it is cooler out side. It will shift fine only when I've been driving it for an hour, and even then won't leave first gear sometimes. Maybe it's the oil that I am using (Dexron III is in it now) The transmission is a Borg-Warner DG-200. Prior to changing the fluid, the old fluid came out like water and it wasn't dark red like the Dexron III. It was a light pink color. Maybe there is a lighter transmission fluid out there? The auto store has Dexron III For GM transmissions. Mercon III For Ford Transmissions and One for Chrysler transmissions not sure what the name for the Chrysler ones are called.

The radiator cap was rated for 4 pounds and it leaks its coolant out from the over flow tube after driving it. I bought a new cap. Rated for 16 pounds (cross over part number is of a 78 Chevy El Camino) and it leaks even more. It's not running hot. The temperature gauge needle reads in the middle of that square box between the center and the "H" on the temperature gauge.

Any help would be great. Thanks.

[jclary]

Emerson, my very original '51 Land Cruiser has used Type F fluid in the 27 years I've owned it. Other than checking/adding/and changing the fluid, I have not messed with it. These early automatics require you to check the fluid level with the car running and "IN DRIVE"...So you need someone to hold the brakes or have very good working hand brakes when doing this task. Before tinkering with mechanical adjustments, make sure the fluid is at the correct level. I have removed and installed automatics, but never tore into one. So I'm hoping someone with better knowledge will provide some useful information.

As to the engine coolant. I don't know your mechanical skill level, or experience with these cars. So, forgive me, if it seems I'm being a little too "basic." All cars of this era, Studebaker or other brands, were built before the "over-flow," or "coolant recovery" (also known as "expansion") tank was invented. If you completely fill the radiator, as it warms up, water will flow out your overflow tube. If your car has an overflow tube that has been crushed flat, or removed, water will still blow out around the cap. Without a recovery tank, you should always leave enough space in the radiator to allow for expansion. There are inexpensive aftermarket expansion tanks available to cure the problem. First, you need to determine if you have the overflow tube, and a proper fitting radiator cap. The decision to add a tank is up to you.

[mbstude]

The radiator cap was rated for 4 pounds and it leaks its coolant out from the over flow tube after driving it. I bought a new cap. Rated for 16 pounds (cross over part number is of a 78 Chevy El Camino) and it leaks even more. It's not running hot. The temperature gauge needle reads in the middle of that square box between the center and the "H" on the temperature gauge.

Any help would be great. Thanks.

I can't offer any help on the transmission issues.. But, I've seen 51's with non pressurized coolant systems, and the ones that are pressurized, have a 4 pound cap. I wouldn't change that to anything else. If your gauge indicates the temp is in the middle of the "box", then your coolant system is working as it should. That "box" represents the correct operating range for the coolant temp.

Are you filling the radiator up all the way to the neck? If so, it's going to puke out what it doesn't want through the overflow tube. I've always filled them up and the car will puke out the excess, and all is fine. It's an open system and that's how it works.

BTW.. I wouldn't be too hard on Mr. Kertzel. No 64 year old car is going to be completely problem free.

[Studebakercenteroforegon]

Your so-called "crossover" on the radiator cap is very wrong. Most early cars had a 1" deep filler neck, while anything as new as application for the cap you bought would have been for a 3/4" deep filler neck. No wonder it leaked worse. Get the correct cap and do not overfill the radiator, as others here have instructed.

[TWChamp]

Coolant loss

The top tank is the expansion tank, so as long as the antifreeze is above the top of the radiator tubes you are good to go. My 50 Champion has a non pressure cap and after driving the car a couple thousand miles over 18 months I had to add about a quart of antifreeze. I see no leaks, so I assume it evaporated out the overflow pipe

[EmersonCollie]

Emerson, my very original '51 Land Cruiser has used Type F fluid in the 27 years I've owned it. Other than checking/adding/and changing the fluid, I have not messed with it. These early automatics require you to check the fluid level with the car running and "IN DRIVE"...So you need someone to hold the brakes or have very good working hand brakes when doing this task. Before tinkering with mechanical adjustments, make sure the fluid is at the correct level. I have removed and installed automatics, but never tore into one. So I'm hoping someone with better knowledge will provide some useful information.

As to the engine coolant. I don't know your mechanical skill level, or experience with these cars. So, forgive me, if it seems I'm being a little too "basic." All cars of this era, Studebaker or other brands, were built before the "over-flow," or "coolant recovery" (also known as "expansion") tank was invented. If you completely fill the radiator, as it warms up, water will flow out your overflow tube. If your car has an overflow tube that has been crushed flat, or removed, water will still blow out around the cap. Without a recovery tank, you should always leave enough space in the radiator to allow for expansion. There are inexpensive aftermarket expansion tanks available to cure the problem. First, you need to determine if you have the overflow tube, and a proper fitting radiator cap. The decision to add a tank is up to you.

I did check it in drive and it is at the full mark. In fact it's on the line of the full mark. As for the Type F fluid. Does it matter what brand it is?

[EmersonCollie]

I can't offer any help on the transmission issues.. But, I've seen 51's with non pressurized coolant systems, and the ones that are pressurized, have a 4 pound cap. I wouldn't change that to anything else. If your gauge indicates the temp is in the middle of the "box", then your coolant system is working as it should. That "box" represents the correct operating range for the coolant temp.

Are you filling the radiator up all the way to the neck? If so, it's going to puke out what it doesn't want through the overflow tube. I've always filled them up and the car will puke out the excess, and all is fine. It's an open system and that's how it works.

BTW.. I wouldn't be too hard on Mr. Kertzel. No 64 year old car is going to be completely problem free.

I still have the 4 pound cap. I wasn't filling it all the way up to the neck. Just enough to where the radiator part it under. Maybe I should have less then that.

I wasn't trying to be hard on him. Really, I wasn't. Sorry if it sounded that way.

[EmersonCollie]

Your so-called "crossover" on the radiator cap is very wrong. Most early cars had a 1" deep filler neck, while anything as new as application for the cap you bought would have been for a 3/4" deep filler neck. No wonder it leaked worse. Get the correct cap and do not overfill the radiator, as others here have instructed.

Okay, first off. It wasn't MY "so-called" crossover. That's what I got from the auto parts man. Obviously it's the wrong one and it leaked worse, I can clearly see that.

[EmersonCollie]

The top tank is the expansion tank, so as long as the antifreeze is above the top of the radiator tubes you are good to go. My 50 Champion has a non pressure cap and after driving the car a couple thousand miles over 18 months I had to add about a quart of antifreeze. I see no leaks, so I assume it evaporated out the overflow pipe

Okay, thanks. I'll make sure that the antifreeze doesn't go passed the top of the tubes. Thanks again.

[jclary]

I did check it in drive and it is at the full mark. In fact it's on the line of the full mark. As for the Type F fluid. Does it matter what brand it is?

I became aware of the SDC in the 1970's. I think I have issues of Turning Wheels magazine with our technical advisers discussing this issue way back then. Many folks, either don't know, or have forgotten, that the first fluid used in these transmissions was something akin to 10wt motor oil. The early oil had "foaming" issues. Therefore, a better performing hydraulic fluid, specifically formulated for automatic transmissions was developed. It apparently solved the foaming issue, but being based on "Whale Oil"...opened another can of worms. Seems like certain folks were not too happy 'bout other folks processing whales into a liquid to pour into their transmissions.

(Keep in mind that I'm sipp'n' morning coffee, feet propped up, and watching the leaves develop fall colors, while plinking out these thoughts on a laptop. Besides faulty memory, reading comprehension, and making my spell checker work overtime, any "factual information," is purely accidental. However, it is how I remember it.)

The earliest articles I recall on the subject, recommended Type F. It was not until I acquired a Studebaker with an automatic transmission that I actually "paid attention" to the fluid type discussion. That is when I noticed a contradiction. Through the years, I've seen arguments, and testimony supporting both. Dexron and Type F. It has left me uncertain on the issue, since it is my nature to give "credibility" credit to those who have positions of writing technical advice columns. Therefore, I have stayed the course with what "has worked" for me.

As to "BRAND"...I'm not going there. If the "experts" can't agree on the Type...I doubt they'll agree on brand.

(In addition to the disclaimer above, I'm also attempting to type this while pretending to be attentive to my wife's comments while she's watching and absorbing Monday morning ESPN talking head sports programs. She is a female sports nut. I really cherish that. So...you'll forgive me if any of my comments here are less than accurate, or confused. I'd much rather piss you off than her!)

[Studebakercenteroforegon]

Okay, first off. It wasn't MY "so-called" crossover. That's what I got from the auto parts man. Obviously it's the wrong one and it leaked worse, I can clearly see that.

The crossover comment was aimed at your parts person, not you. They have access to "illustrated Parts Guides" which would have shown this difference.

[mbstude]

Okay, thanks. I'll make sure that the antifreeze doesn't go passed the top of the tubes. Thanks again.

No.. You want the coolant higher than the tubes. Just not all the way to the neck.

Like I said, fill it up and the car will spew out what it doesn't want. It's as simple as that.

[TWChamp]

Right, 1/2" to 1" over the top of the tubes is fine and will leave enough room for expansion.

[EmersonCollie]

I became aware of the SDC in the 1970's. I think I have issues of Turning Wheels magazine with our technical advisers discussing this issue way back then. Many folks, either don't know, or have forgotten, that the first fluid used in these transmissions was something akin to 10wt motor oil. The early oil had "foaming" issues. Therefore, a better performing hydraulic fluid, specifically formulated for automatic transmissions was developed. It apparently solved the foaming issue, but being based on "Whale Oil"...opened another can of worms. Seems like certain folks were not too happy 'bout other folks processing whales into a liquid to pour into their transmissions.

(Keep in mind that I'm sipp'n' morning coffee, feet propped up, and watching the leaves develop fall colors, while plinking out these thoughts on a laptop. Besides faulty memory, reading comprehension, and making my spell checker work overtime, any "factual information," is purely accidental. However, it is how I remember it.)

The earliest articles I recall on the subject, recommended Type F. It was not until I acquired a Studebaker with an automatic transmission that I actually "paid attention" to the fluid type discussion. That is when I noticed a contradiction. Through the years, I've seen arguments, and testimony supporting both. Dexron and Type F. It has left me uncertain on the issue, since it is my nature to give "credibility" credit to those who have positions of writing technical advice columns. Therefore, I have stayed the course with what "has worked" for me.

As to "BRAND"...I'm not going there. If the "experts" can't agree on the Type...I doubt they'll agree on brand.

(In addition to the disclaimer above, I'm also attempting to type this while pretending to be attentive to my wife's comments while she's watching and absorbing Monday morning ESPN talking head sports programs. She is a female sports nut. I really cherish that. So...you'll forgive me if any of my comments here are less than accurate, or confused. I'd much rather piss you off than her!)

Sure, I can understand that. But what I meant which brand is. There is just Type F, Mobile One Type F and Royal Purple Type F. Some may say the the Royal Purple might be a little too slick for it. But I don't know. That's why I asked to see if it mattered.

So far, I have tried Dexron and it's not working out too well. So I'll have to give the Type F a go and see.

[EmersonCollie]

The crossover comment was aimed at your parts person, not you. They have access to "illustrated Parts Guides" which would have shown this difference.

No problem.

That was all the parts man could come up with that was close. As we both know, Its not close at all.