Identify an OD solenoid?

[gordr]

I have a 2-terminal overdrive solenoid that I can't identify. Number on the end of the case is 1119772. That may be a Warner Gear number, and not a Stude number.

It operates on 6 volts, but sluggishly, and snaps in quickly on 12 volts, which leads me to think it's a 12 volt unit, but I'm not sure. Needless to say, it's a six-volt one I need right now. The only other loose one I could find today is a 3-terminal job, and I know THEY are 12 volts.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

[DilloCrafter]

Gordon,

I can't help ID that OD solenoid, but I do have the original 6 volt solenoid that came in my 1955 truck (it still has overspray from the 1955 Alberta Blue engine paint). The previous owner had converted the truck to 12v, but kept the 6v solenoid in place, and rigged up a toggle switch to activate/engage it. It was still working when I got the truck, but I have replaced it with a 12v unit.

If you can tell me the best way to test this spare 6v solenoid, I can make a good deal on it for you (provided it tests ok, of course). It's got the #4 and #6 terminals on it. From the wiring diagram, it appears I would just connect a positive battery terminal to one of them, and a negative terminal to the other. I have a 6/12 volt battery charger that can serve as the 6v dc voltage source.



I would have sent this message to you off the forum, but others will benefit from the testing setup that you can suggest here.

[img=left]http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Avacar-hcsdc.gif[/img=left]
Paul Simpson
"DilloCrafter"

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

[gordr]

Paul, I'm sure I can find another 6 volt one locally. I have one I can rob out of a car for the time being.

To test a solenoid (assuming it's 6 volt), connect the mounting flange to the battery positive, and connect a wire from the battery negative to each terminal in turn. One will do nothing; it's an open circuit when the solenoid is de-energized. The other should cause the actuator rod to pop out briskly about a half-inch. The action is SO brisk, that if you are holding the solenoid loosely, it may jump right out of your hand.

If you were to connect a test light between the #4 and #6 terminals, and had the case of the solenoid connected to battery positive as above, then connecting the negative wire to one of the studs would cause the light to come on, but nothing else...that stud is the grounding terminal, and should be wired to one of the pair of contacts on the kickdown switch furthest from the plunger.

Connecting the negative wire to the other stud should cause the solenoid plunger to jump out, and as it does so, the light should come on, as the moving part inside the solenoid operates a switch that grounds out the the other terminal. It might help to think of the solenoid as combining the function of a short-travel linear "motor" that does physical work with the function of a normally-open relay, which does electrical "work" by providing a path to ground for another circuit to utilize.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

[Dwain G.]

It's a Delco-Remy part (Autolite was also used in some models) and they show it for '56 Stude.


Dwain G.

[gordr]

Thanks, Dwain. Then it is indeed for a 12 volt car. I robbed one out of a '53 Champion, and put the 12 volt one in its place to fill the hole. The Champion is not roadworthy, so it won't miss its overdrive for the time being.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

[DilloCrafter]

Thanks for the step-by-step testing procedure Gordon. Using my 6/12v battery charger, I couldn't quite get it to activate the plunger, but it seemed to want to. I used that battery charger as a voltage supply when testing the windshield wiper motor and wiper switch, so it should be sufficient for this purpose.

Mike, I'll take your suggestion and take this OD solenoid apart, clean up any contacts, and try it again.

I did read somewhere that there is a large coil to engage the plunger, and a small coil to keep it "held in". Supposedly, it's not so good to keep 12v across that small coil of a 6v solenoid. That's why I obtained a 12v unit for my 12v converted truck. Someone please shed more light on this, or correct me if this is wrong. I don't want to spread bad information!

[img=left]http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Avacar-hcsdc.gif[/img=left]
Paul Simpson
"DilloCrafter"

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

[gordr]

Paul, a battery charger might not be a good source of power to operate the solenoid. The initial pull-in current is pretty high, probably beyond the capacity of most small chargers. I'd definitely try it on an actual battery before condemning it. Can I suggest you hook a set of jumper cables to the battery in your truck, and test it at the end of the jumpers? Never a good idea to make sparks around the top of a battery.

To remove the cover on these, remove both terminal screws completely, then undo the nuts on the end, and the cover should slip right off. #4 terminal goes to the coils, and #6 goes to the grounding switch on a two-wire solenoid.

FWIW, I used calipers to measure the diameter of the pull-in coil wire on my 12 volt solenoid, and it appears to be around 0.8 mm, say about .032 inch. I would expect that a six volt solenoid would be wound with wire about 50% larger in diameter. Since I now have a six-volt one on the bench, I'll measure it and report back today.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

[Roscomacaw]

gordr says: "Never a good idea to make sparks around the top of a battery."

Man, that's the truth! When I worked at the auto restoration place in the 70s, we had, for a time, a 30s vintage Rolls Royce Town Car that was a giant, black beast of an auto in presence and temperament.
It had it's battery located in a box that was beneath the rear seat floorboards.The box was twice the size of the battery it held and was fairly well sealed save for a couple of rather small vent holes.
The car was there with us on consignment and it musta had something wrong with the charging system as we always had to use the beefy battery charger every time we had to move the beast.
One of the co-owners of the operation was well acquainted with old cars and KNEW the dangers of sparks and batteries. Of course, since this guy was ALWAYS in a hurry, not always did he respect the safety guidelines of anything. Consequently, he had the Go-Fer guy attach the charger to the sub-floor battery one day in anticipation of demonstrating the car to a potential customer. Letting it charge the livin' you-know-what out of the battery for half an hour or so, he reached in thru the back door and snatched one of the charger clamps off one of the battery posts. From the shop area, I heard a loud POP![:0] and then lotsa cuss words.
Not only had the hydrogen ignited, but it blew the caps off the battery and sprinkled acid all over the original interior in the back of that vintage Rolls.[xx(][8][B)][V]


Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle


1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

[gilmo100]

Im in the process of converting my champion from 6 volt to 12 volt, could we work out a trade?

[dictator27]

Further to what Mr. Biggs said, years ago I knew a fellow who had a 1933 Packard Club Sedan. This car had a persistent short that would kill the battery in about a hour. The initial "fix" was to install a trickle charger on the firewall and keep it plugged in when the car wasn't being used. The battery was located under the driver's seat which meant removing the seat cushion to check it. It was normally left like this with the caps off the battery when the charger was being used. This fellow was a cigar smoker and one day after lighting a stogey next to the car, he held the match down to the battery to check the acid level. Dumb move! [)] BOOM. The battery platform was diamond shaped and that is the only time I have ever seen the bottom blow out of a battery. Fortunately for him the explosion went down rather than up, even thought the caps were off. Yours truly had to crawl under the car to change the battery since the upper access hole was too small to get the battery through. The short was fixed properly shortly thereafter. [8][^]

Terry

[gordr]

quote:Originally posted by gilmo100

Im in the process of converting my champion from 6 volt to 12 volt, could we work out a trade?

I'd certainly be willing to swap, Gilmo. Where are you located? Shipping on this item will be kind of pricey, since it's heavy. I actually found the "lost" six-volt solenoid I was looking for. It was in a box marked "overdrive parts". Who'd have ever thunk it?

BTW, I did measure the diameter of the wire in a six-volt solenoid; it's about 1.2 mm, say around .048"

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

[DilloCrafter]

For Gilmo100's situation of converting from 6v to 12v, is there any reason he can't continue to use the 6v solenoid, considering, as Gordon has found out, the coils are wrapped with thicker wire? In fact, with Gordon's diameter measurements of .8mm and 1.2mm, the formula for area of a circle give a cross section in the 6v unit that can carry twice as many electrons (current) at a time. But, will the higher electro-motive force (of the 12v system) be too much for any component of the 6v solenoid?

[img=left]http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Avacar-hcsdc.gif[/img=left]
Paul Simpson
"DilloCrafter"

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

[gordr]

Paul, others here have stated that you can in fact use a six volt solenoid on a 12 volt car, but it will pull twice the current it did when running on six volts, and it might overheat and burn out.

Electromagnetic devices designed for six volt service use fewer turns of heavier wire than those used for twelve volts. The magnetic force generated by an electromagnet is a function of the current through each turn, and the number of turns. True for motors and generators, too.

And one cannot simply use a voltage-dropping resistor on an OD solenoid, because it contains TWO windings, one being relatively few turns of heavy wire that gives a strong magnetic force for a snappy action, and the other having more turns of finer wire that gives a moderate force to hold the solenoid in the extended position without consuming too much power and getting hot.

Believe me, the simplest and best answer is to swap the solenoid for a 12 volt version. There should be plenty out there. Solenoids off other makes that used overdrive should work, too.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

[gilmo100]

quote:Originally posted by gordr

quote:Originally posted by gilmo100

Im in the process of converting my champion from 6 volt to 12 volt, could we work out a trade?

I'd certainly be willing to swap, Gilmo. Where are you located? Shipping on this item will be kind of pricey, since it's heavy. I actually found the "lost" six-volt solenoid I was looking for. It was in a box marked "overdrive parts". Who'd have ever thunk it?

BTW, I did measure the diameter of the wire in a six-volt solenoid; it's about 1.2 mm, say around .048"

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

Im located in the Los Angeles area. Id definitely be willing to work out the swap, Is it worth the shipping cost?

[gordr]

I'd guess shipping by mail would run close to $20.00 (each way!)

Honestly, I'd try to find one closer to you. Mr. Biggs might have one, or Bob Peterson.

If you got the '56-'57 12 volt two-terminal solenoid, it'd be a direct swap for the six-volt one.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands