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tanna
05-25-2006, 11:05 AM
Good morning, I work for the Dept. of Motor Vehicle in Nevada and I have a customer that has a 1950/51 Studebaker 2R5 PU that I am trying to identify. Does anyone know where I might obtain information on the vin numbers?

Tanna

Roscomacaw
05-25-2006, 11:36 AM
The "VIN" number (actually the "Serial number" in the case of a Studebaker) should be on a small metal plate, just below the lower end of the seat - on the driver's side.;) IF that plate's gone, you're outta luck.
There's another little ID plate (or should be), just inside the door jamb - driver's side and low - that has numbers on it but they ARE NOT the serial or VIN number.
Many states - in the 40s & '50s - registered vehicles by using the engine number for identification. THAT number is STAMPED into the engine block (assuming this 2R5 still has it's flathead 6 cylinder engine) on the upper front corner (driver's side) where the cylinder head meets the engine block.

There's NO other numbers on this truck to be found. Not even some "hidden" numbers stamped into the frame. There might well be some 4-digit PART numbers stamped into various frame pieces, but they don't constitute anything you could register the truck by.

With the 2R series of trucks (built from '48 thru '53) there's NO real way to tell one year from another. Even the serial numbers aren't a TRUE means of defining a given year, unless of course, you DID have a serial number that you could send to the Studebaker museum and thereby obtain a production order for YOUR specific truck. Said PO would yield a build date that you could use to define it as a "___" model 2R5 truck!;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Roscomacaw
05-25-2006, 11:55 AM
By the way... the First 2R5 would've been serialized "2R5-001" Since there were 110,500 of these built from '48 thru '53, we can theorize that the last one's serial # would be "2R5-110,500". And also, the plates these serial numbers were stamped on, MAY have lost all their painted portion over the years. Since the "2R5" portion of the serial numbers was painted on the tags, we can end up with only the stamped, last numbers of the serial #.
Another thing peculiar to Studebakers is that for unknown reasons, they used the capitol letter "I" as the numeral "1" in any serial or engine numbers.

One other note : Studebaker had another assembly plant in Canada at the time. Trucks built there had a bit different serial number. An example would be 2HR5-001. The inclusion of an "H" after the "2" being the way to set apart a Canadian-built truck from a US-assembled one. After half a century, surely a few Canadian-built 2R5s have found their way south. Likewise, a few US-built examples have ended up in Canada.:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

tanna
05-25-2006, 12:41 PM
The plate has a serial number of R5-46600 but the title is registared with an engine number of 1R68203 and the title also give year as 1950 and 1951 there lies the problems. Do you have a number or email address for the Studebaker museum?

Tanna

Roscomacaw
05-25-2006, 01:06 PM
www.studebakermuseum.org

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Dwain G.
05-25-2006, 08:41 PM
Frank Drumheller over on the Studebaker Truck Forum........... http://www.network54.com/Forum/23885/
..........can somehow come up with a breakdown of serial numbers to model year for most M series, and I think some R series too.

Dwain G.

Dick Steinkamp
05-25-2006, 08:55 PM
quote:Originally posted by tanna

The plate has a serial number of R5-46600 but the title is registared with an engine number of 1R68203 and the title also give year as 1950 and 1951 there lies the problems. Do you have a number or email address for the Studebaker museum?

Tanna


The engine number crosses to a '49-53 2R5...

http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/tech_6data.asp

-Dick-



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Skip Lackie
05-26-2006, 08:57 AM
quote:Originally posted by tanna

The plate has a serial number of R5-46600 but the title is registared with an engine number of 1R68203 and the title also give year as 1950 and 1951 there lies the problems. Do you have a number or email address for the Studebaker museum?

Tanna


I have a poor Xerox copy of Studebaker Truck Service Letter dated October 26, 1950 that states that 2R5 models starting with serial number R5-42501 should be considered as 1951 models. A similar Service Letter dated October 22, 1951 (that went to the state of Nevada among others) states that the starting serial numbers for 1952 Model 2R5 trucks was R5-78579. Therefore, the subject truck with serial number R5-46600 is a 1951 model. As has been stated, the engine number indicates that it is the correct engine for this model, though not necessarily the engine that was originally installed in this truck. If needed, I could mail you copies of these service letters -- could also try to fax them, but I'm not sure they'd be readable.

I have used these service letters in the past to resolve similar uncertainties about Studebaker vehicles with the District of Columbia DMV.

Skip Lackie
Wash, DC

garyash
05-26-2006, 09:20 AM
Skip, if you have the information handy, can you also post the serial numbers where the dividing point is between 1949 and 1950 and also between 1952 and 1953 models? These questions come up all the time in reference to 2R trucks and their year of manufacture.

It would also be useful if someone had a breakdown on the 1R sequence of engine numbers. The list on the tech data pages on this SDC site lumps all the '49-'53 engines together. I guess it didn't seem important to Studebaker at the time.

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com

Roscomacaw
05-26-2006, 11:25 AM
Skip, I too would love to get that info. I answer that question on a regular basis and while I've been sure that someone had researched this point at one time (obviously, they had), I had no more to go on than what's been written in TW and other places (like the parts manuals) thru the years.
Obviously, it didn't mean much when the trucks were new, but modern day DMVs want definitive proof of YEAR. They don' know nuthin' 'bout no injun nummers!:(

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Skip Lackie
05-26-2006, 12:48 PM
quote:Originally posted by Skip Lackie


quote:Originally posted by tanna

The plate has a serial number of R5-46600 but the title is registared with an engine number of 1R68203 and the title also give year as 1950 and 1951 there lies the problems. Do you have a number or email address for the Studebaker museum?

Tanna


I have a poor Xerox copy of Studebaker Truck Service Letter dated October 26, 1950 that states that 2R5 models starting with serial number R5-42501 should be considered as 1951 models. A similar Service Letter dated October 22, 1951 (that went to the state of Nevada among others) states that the starting serial numbers for 1952 Model 2R5 trucks was R5-78579. Therefore, the subject truck with serial number R5-46600 is a 1951 model. As has been stated, the engine number indicates that it is the correct engine for this model, though not necessarily the engine that was originally installed in this truck. If needed, I could mail you copies of these service letters -- could also try to fax them, but I'm not sure they'd be readable.

I have used these service letters in the past to resolve similar uncertainties about Studebaker vehicles with the District of Columbia DMV.

Skip Lackie
Wash, DC


Tanna-
In attempting to respond to the above notes by Gary Ash and Mr B, I started looking through my truck service letters, and this causes me to correct my above response to Tanna. The confusion WRT the model year results from a bit of sleight of hand executed by the Studebaker Corp itself in 1950. An Oct 1949 service letter states that all 2R5 models with serial numbers above R5-42501 shall be considered to be 1950 models. Okay so far. But then the Oct 1950 service letter referenced earlier states that all 2R5 models above R5-42501 (IE, THE SAME NUMBER) that were sold new to a retail customer on or after 1 November 1950 shall be considered to be 1951 models. One can only speculate on the reasons for this little fib, but one would be that there were essentially no differences between the 1950 and 51 models, so it really didn't matter.

All that said, it will be extremely difficult to make an absolute determination of the model year without knowing when the retail customer actually bought the vehicle. The production order will tell you when the truck was built and (usually) the name of the dealer that ordered it, but won't include the date of retail sale. Maybe common sense should prevail: R5-42501 was the first 1950 model truck, and R5-78579 was the first 1952 model. Number R5-46600 was clearly built early in the 1950 model year (probably in late 1949), and it would not be unreasonable to assume that it was sold some time before November 1950. So the best bet would be to call it a 1950 model.:D

Good luck!
Skip Lackie
Wash DC

Skip Lackie
05-26-2006, 05:20 PM
quote:Originally posted by garyash

Skip, if you have the information handy, can you also post the serial numbers where the dividing point is between 1949 and 1950 and also between 1952 and 1953 models? These questions come up all the time in reference to 2R trucks and their year of manufacture.

It would also be useful if someone had a breakdown on the 1R sequence of engine numbers. The list on the tech data pages on this SDC site lumps all the '49-'53 engines together. I guess it didn't seem important to Studebaker at the time.

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com


Gary and Bob-
Okay, here is the best I can do on starting serial numbers for Stude trucks. First, there is no breakdown of engine numbers in the truck service letters I have seen. So on that score, we're still stuck with the numbers in the parts books. Second, I do not have the computer skills of a JDP or N8N, so there's no Excel spread sheet attached. But here are the data I gleaned from the service letters:
1949: As stated in parts books, all models start at 001
1950: R5-42501; R10-20101; R15-10801; R16A-24401; R17A-13501; and any of the above models with earlier numbers if delivered new to retail customer after 1 Jan 50. Also R6-001; R11-001; R14-001.
1951: R6-201; R11-101; R14-101. For other models, same numbers as 1950, if delivered new after 1 Nov 50.
1952: R5-78579; R6-3355; R10-31339; R11-3127; R14-531; R15-12770; R16A-33041; R17A-22791; or any earlier number sold new on or after 15 Nov 51.
1953: R5-96238; R6-7424; R10-34250; R11-5926; R14-1011; R15-13398; R16A-39413; R17A-31039; or any earlier number sold new on or after 15 Nov 52.
1954 - 57: in parts book
1958: E5-125401; E6-16901; E7-9801; E11-13001; E12-3601; E13-2301; E14-2801; E16-45201; E17-38401; E28-6201; E38-11101; E40-1501.
1964: Any 8E sold new on or after 1 Aug 63.

Skip

garyash
05-26-2006, 06:10 PM
That's great, Skip! If you don't mind, I'll add the info to a page on my web site where I have the numbers for the M trucks (thanks to Fred Fox's article and the manuals). I have a bunch of paint codes for the trucks there, too.
See http://www.studegarage.com/refdata.htm

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com

Skip Lackie
05-26-2006, 06:43 PM
Glad to be of service (for once!).

Roscomacaw
05-26-2006, 07:10 PM
Yeah - thanks Skip! Cool Deal!

As to the date of retail sale, I don't see where that's of much matter. At least so far as the DMV's concerned. Given the 2Rs are almost indistinguishable thru their run, I would think it would be valid to say that if a given truck was built in 1950, then it ought to BE a 1950 truck. [8D]
After all, when lingering models from a previous year are sold, their STILL sold as the year model they really are - not according to what the calendar says on the day of sale.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Alan
05-26-2006, 07:41 PM
Mr. Biggs, Not so in California. I have a 68 MGC that has a higher or later serial no. than my 69 MGC, a few friends in the Southern Cal. MG club have 81-83 MGB's even though they made the last one in 1980 they go by the date sold.

rockne10
05-26-2006, 07:57 PM
Left coast. Go figure.[}:)]

studegary
05-26-2006, 08:47 PM
1959 and 1960 truck starting serial numbers are in the shop manual. They are too numerous for me to type in here. The numbers that Skip provided should go in a reference section on this SDC site.

Studebaker not only carried over trucks for later model year registration but also authorized new 1963 Avantis that were still in stock to be sold as 1964s. This is as per Service Letter G-1964-3, dated September 27, 1963. This caused many 1963 Avanris to be registered/titled as 1964s and continues to be an identification problem to this day.

Gary L.
1954 Commander Starliner (restomod)
1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)

Dick Steinkamp
05-26-2006, 08:49 PM
quote:Originally posted by Alan

Mr. Biggs, Not so in California...they go by the date sold.


They do? I bought a 2001 GMC in November of 2000. It was titled in California as a 2001 (not the date sold).

I'm sure there are exceptions, but I believe it is California DMV's intent to title a car corresponding to the model year of that vehicle. Not when it was necessarly produced, and not necessarly when it was sold.




http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Guido
05-26-2006, 08:53 PM
In this time frame in Virginia, vehicles were titled according to the engine number and the year they were sold. Thus if the dealer had leftover stock (which incidently looked just like the new stock) it was then titled as the following year.

Guido

1946 M-16 fire truck
1949 2R16A grain truck
1949 2R17A fire truck
1955 E-38 grain truck
1957 3E-40 flatbed
1961 6E-28 grain truck
1962 7E-13D 4x4 rack truck
1962 Champ pickup
1962 GT Hawk 4 speed
1964 Avanti R2 4 speed
1964 Cruiser

garyash
05-26-2006, 10:19 PM
I took Skip's numbers and some info from the June 1985 article in Turning Wheels by Fred Fox and put a quick web page together on the 2R serial numbers. It's here:
http://www.studegarage.com/REFDATA/2R_sernum.htm

We're getting very close now. We still can't distinguish 2R5, 2R10, 2R15, 2R16A, and 2R17A trucks between 1950 and 1951 (if it's really imporatnt). Maybe a few people could post serial numbers for trucks built in August-October 1950 to get an idea.

Also there is a discrepancy between the serial numbers in the service letters that Skip references and the Fred Fox June,1985 article in TW on 2R trucks for 2R16A and 2R17A trucks. Fred stated that the first serial numebr for 2R16A is R16A-13,201 and for 2R17A trucks is R17A-7,201. I have no idea where Fred got the numbers. How do we resolve the difference?

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com

Dwain G.
05-26-2006, 11:47 PM
quote:Originally posted by garyash
Also there is a discrepancy between the serial numbers in the service letters that Skip references and the Fred Fox June,1985 article in TW on 2R trucks for 2R16A and 2R17A trucks. Fred stated that the first serial numebr for 2R16A is R16A-13,201 and for 2R17A trucks is R17A-7,201. I have no idea where Fred got the numbers. How do we resolve the difference?

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com


Fred Fox gave starting serials (as per the parts catalog) for the very first 16A and 17A from the 1949 model year.
Skip Lackie gave the 1950 model year starting numbers as per service letters.
Dwain G.

garyash
05-27-2006, 10:36 AM
Thanks, Dwain. My one-cell brain got confused. I fixed the list on my web page. It's here:
http://www.studegarage.com/REFDATA/2R_sernum.htm

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com

Roscomacaw
05-27-2006, 05:56 PM
Alan, I've got an old registration here in front of me. (California - "pink slip") This one's for the '57 President 2-door I have. It shows the car to be a '57 but says: "Date Sold - 56". What you would get from that?[?]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

rockne10
05-27-2006, 06:10 PM
U.S. Postal Service back then was so efficient, mail was received before it was sent.[:o)]

Alan
05-27-2006, 06:28 PM
MG's were dated by year sold, don't know if they did the same for Non foreign cars. 2007 cars being sold now should they be regestered as 2006's? You can get into many different scenerios depending on the situation. Calif. D.M.V. can make you want to tear your hair out. Am parting out a 53K now that I bought in 1977 from a guy who's son died in Vietnam, said he would look for the pink. Sat in my yard for years. Went looking for the guy I bought it from and he died in 96. So I went to Sacramento 2 years ago to get it straightened out and seams to have had a fire in the archives and there is no record of anything before 1985. It is just one episode of chaseing your tail after another.

rockne10
05-27-2006, 06:44 PM
Years ago I bought a 48 Cadillac hearse for which the title had been lost. When I tried to obtain a duplicate the lady at our DMV told me that, since Pennsylvania had updated to computerized records, she was sorry but the vehicle no longer existed.[:0]
And David Copperfield had not yet been born.

Skip Lackie
05-28-2006, 09:16 AM
quote:Originally posted by garyash

I took Skip's numbers and some info from the June 1985 article in Turning Wheels by Fred Fox and put a quick web page together on the 2R serial numbers. It's here:
http://www.studegarage.com/REFDATA/2R_sernum.htm

We're getting very close now. We still can't distinguish 2R5, 2R10, 2R15, 2R16A, and 2R17A trucks between 1950 and 1951 (if it's really imporatnt). Maybe a few people could post serial numbers for trucks built in August-October 1950 to get an idea.

Also there is a discrepancy between the serial numbers in the service letters that Skip references and the Fred Fox June,1985 article in TW on 2R trucks for 2R16A and 2R17A trucks. Fred stated that the first serial numebr for 2R16A is R16A-13,201 and for 2R17A trucks is R17A-7,201. I have no idea where Fred got the numbers. How do we resolve the difference?

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com


Gary-
A minor glitch in your listing: The 2R6, 2R11, and 2R14 were introduced late in the 1950 model year (my recollection is June 1950, but I don't have access to my sales letter collection at the moment). Their serial numbers all started at 001. Apparently a small number of these were sold as 1950 models, as my serial number listing above shows 1951 models starting at R6-201, R11-101, and R14-101. Your listing does not include these in the 1950 data, and shows the 2R6 models starting at R6-101 instead of 201. Of course, the uncertainty regarding the 1950/51 split for Champion-engined trucks remains.

Skip

garyash
05-28-2006, 10:46 AM
I fixed it. Thanks again, Skip.

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com

Swifster
05-29-2006, 02:30 PM
The DOT standardized VIN's in the mid '70's, starting with the 1981 model year. Prior to this, the numbering system was left up to the manufacturer. This includes all foreign models as well. Prior to this, it was the states decision on how the car was titled.

Current VIN's show the country the vehicle was built in, types of restraint systems, engines, assembly plant, model, trim level (in some cases), and body style. Older 'serial numbers' could have some of this information, or a straight rolling counter from the assembly plant. Mostr cars, even foreign ones had a break point to designate one model year from another. This did not stop some states from titling some cars based on date sold, engine number, etc., right up until 1981.

Depending on your DMV, a little explaination will go along way with some DMV employees dealing with older cars. After explaining the issue with the "I" vs "1" deal (and having a copy of the Production Order), the Michigan Secretary of State made the necessary changes to correct the number when I submitted the old CA title for new. Some DMV's are easier to deal with than others, and the same can be said about their employees.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona

Michigan Speed - www.michiganspeed.com
Club Hot Rod - www.clubhotrod.com
LS1 Tech - www.ls1tech.com

tanna
05-30-2006, 07:21 PM
I would like to thank every one for their help. I contacted the museumn that M.Biggs told me about and I was able to confirm the year as a 1951. So thank you all again.


Tanna

smt57
04-30-2007, 10:45 PM
can anybody tell me the year of manf. for
serial number E5-119XXX.
studebaker pu.
thanks

N8N
04-30-2007, 10:53 PM
Tanna,

if you're still reading this, just wanted to say that it is great to see a DMV employee going "above and beyond" to resolve a titling issue like this. If you ever move to VA let me know where you end up working :)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Roscomacaw
04-30-2007, 10:56 PM
It's a '56

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

smt57
05-01-2007, 06:39 PM
Mr. Biggs can you tell me anything else about the
serial number on this vehicle.
thanks

Roscomacaw
05-02-2007, 09:41 PM
There's no "secret codes" tied up in these old Stude numbers. They simply reveal the trucks place in the sequence of production. The E indicates it's a 55 or later, And since the serial number is as late as it is, this means this truck is really a 2E (which is what the designator for '56 models is) as opposed to a just plain E (whichj is what the designator for '55 models is). Really - your truck is a 2E5, but for whatever reason, these things were registered using only the "E" as a first numeral in the serial numbers. And if you think that's goofy, consider that 57s and 58s wore 3E as their designator! I said there were no "secret codes" in the number, but the "5" right after the E tells us it was a half ton with the 185cu.in. six cylinder engine. If it had originally come with a V8, it would be a 2E7.:D

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

smt57
05-03-2007, 11:44 PM
Mr biggs thanks alot, sounds like you have been around
studebakers awhile and know your stuff.

StudeRich
05-04-2007, 03:35 AM
I am sure Mr. Biggs knows, but for the record: Calif. has a box on the registration card and the Title for "Yr.Model" AND "Yr. first sold" it would be a typo if they are not both filled in or the yr. sold shown as 00/00/00 if unknown (my older titles even have the actual date). California's registration system is by far the best in the Country, and they do understand that it's yr. model is the advertised configuration year of the vehicle. Way better system than some states that have their heads completely in the sand and do not even believe in issuing titles! :(

Of course we all know this 1957 with a date sold of 1956 is quite common since most all year models were sold beginning in Sept. of the prior year.


quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

Alan, I've got an old registration here in front of me. (California - "pink slip") This one's for the '57 President 2-door I have. It shows the car to be a '57 but says: "Date Sold - 56". What you would get from that?[?]

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA