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cool58 Stude
09-11-2015, 11:06 AM
I a trying to buy a Silver hawk but the seller has no idea where the title is and he has moved several times so I need to get a title for this car, can you help? Thanking you in advance Roy B. email address is cool55@tampabay.rr.com, :QQ: phone number is 352 596-9010

BobPalma
09-11-2015, 11:10 AM
:) Not enough information. :(

It depends on the state in which the car is being sold, the last state in which the car was titled, and the state where the car will be going; where the new owner will attempt to get a title.

The question is too general to be answered simply, without knowing the states / provinces involved. :cool: BP

TWChamp
09-11-2015, 11:43 AM
I agree with Bob. Usually it's best for the current owner to apply for a lost title. It used to cost $10 to get a duplicate title.

Skip Lackie
09-11-2015, 11:59 AM
Agree. BY FAR the easiest approach will be for the old owner to get a duplicate title. Otherwise, depending on the state(s) involved, you could end up with 3000 lbs of un-registerable scrap steel.

dleroux
09-11-2015, 12:00 PM
Here in Washington state you can apply for a provisional title. If you got the car from uncle Harry, who happened to be a hoarder & is no longer with us, then you make the application for a provisional title, wait 3 years, & if there isn't any other claim to the vehicle, the state will issue a "clean" title. If, however, you're looking at a $25K car and "Lenny" is going to sell it to you for $10K, but he just can't find the title, then run. If you buy the car without the title & it's either stolen or someone has a claim to it, you're out of luck. & why do I know so much about this? All I can say is, please don't learn the hard way.

Stu Chapman
09-11-2015, 12:14 PM
I understand that some states do not required titles, simply a bill of sale in order to get a vehicle permit. I see you are in Florida and I believe Georgia does not requires titles. Could you have the car sold to a Georgia individual and then have the car transferred to you? Just thinking. Anyone else have thoughts on this or am I off base?

Stu Chapman

Scott
09-11-2015, 12:16 PM
Just wondering what color the hawk is and what year. It's possible it could be my old one. Slim chance, but still possible.

wittsend
09-11-2015, 12:58 PM
Read and re-read what poster #5 (dleroux) said. Something similar just came up in my Pinto world. A guy recently bought a car here in California. Took it to the DMV and SURPRISE there are over $600 in back registration fees. In Calif. if you don't Non-Op a car before the registration expires you are held accountable for those fees/fines even if the car sat on someones property on jackstands all that time (yes, you are guilty without recourse to prove yourself innocent). Our minimal registration is about $80. In just three years those fees/fines add up to $920! Timely filing of a $20-ish Non-Op status would have abated all that.

Living proof is to search Craigslist (California) and see cars linger month after month. More often than not is because the astute buyer finds out there are title ("Bill of Sale" means virtually nothing here) or back registration fees/fines making the "Deal" not one at all.

So, while this thread primarily concerns titles, be aware some states have registration laws that also cost dearly.

GinettaG12P
09-11-2015, 01:15 PM
Years ago, I acquired a vehicle on a Bill-of-Sale. To get a title, I "sold" the vehicle to a leasing company in a non-title state (a state that recognizes vehicle registration as proof of ownership.) They registered the vehicle in the name of their company and then "sold" the vehicle back to me, providing me with the certificate of registration and a Bill-of-Sale. I took the registration and the out-of-state Bill of Sale to the CA DMV, which issued me a title to the vehicle. During the entire transaction, the vehicle never left my barn. I think it is still possible to obtain a CA title in this way.

6hk71400
09-11-2015, 02:13 PM
Matthew, chime in as you live in Florida and would know about such things. What I did in Arizona to get a title for my Speedster has no bearing on what the Sunshine State has as requirements.

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ

studegary
09-11-2015, 03:06 PM
I understand that some states do not required titles, simply a bill of sale in order to get a vehicle permit. I see you are in Florida and I believe Georgia does not requires titles. Could you have the car sold to a Georgia individual and then have the car transferred to you? Just thinking. Anyone else have thoughts on this or am I off base?

Stu Chapman

New York State does not issue titles for pre-1973 cars. Instead, the registration is different than for the later cars. The registration is the legal transfer document for pre-1973 cars. It does not matter if that registration is current or has expired. The last registration form is still the legal ownership document. I give a notorized bill of sale along with this ownership document.

rockinhawk
09-11-2015, 03:07 PM
Is the car and the seller located in Florida?

cool58 Stude
09-11-2015, 04:26 PM
Fla.
is a tough state to get a title when the car has not ever been registered in Fl. the car was sold to a guy in S.C. and he never registered it and sold it to another guy who did the same thing and there has never been a registered title to this car in the last 13 years it's been in a garage for the last 10 years here in Fl.

Skip Lackie
09-11-2015, 06:09 PM
See post #9 above. Broadway Title may be able to help you. Not cheap, and not possible in every state -- but they will tell you if their paperwork is acceptable in your state or not. If not, I think it's a parts car.

6hk71400
09-11-2015, 06:20 PM
Put your hand in your pockets, turn and walk away. Sorry but the time, energy, frustration, and money you will spend to try to get legal ownership after the cars checkered past probably won't be worth it. It is a crying shame, but I am sure this is repeated over and over again.

I am sure there are other Hawks around with no ownership issues that you can find.

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ

T.J. lavallee
09-11-2015, 08:17 PM
I have to agree with Bob Miles. This is just too much of a run around. Your energy would be better spent finding the car you want that has the title already with it. If I'm in the market for a car or motorcycle and there's no title I'm not interested. Simple as that!

mbstude
09-11-2015, 10:03 PM
cool58... Get in touch with my granddad, Neil (rockinhawk). He has first hand experience with this. :)

6hk71400
09-11-2015, 11:06 PM
Thanks for helping Matt. I would like to know the outcome. If it is possible, let all of us know. How many times have we found a great car only to have to walk away because no legal way to take ownership?

The state of Arizona allows with a bill of sale and a purchase of a bond to get legal title to a car. This can lead to someone that has never heard or seen a Studebaker before to place an arbitrary value anywhere from $1,000 to $10,000 on a bucket of bolts. I have a friend that bought a 60 lark for $100 and was told it had a title. Surprise! PO could not find the title. My friend chose to be staunch in his belief about the value and went through 19 months of trying to argue with the state on value. After all was said and done, it cost him around $250.00 to get a bonded title from the state. The bond is to protect the state against possible claims of ownership for a three year period. All that for a 1960 4 door Lark Six with missing bumpers and cylinder head.


I picked up a1955 Speedster in pieces and boxes. I guess instead of a basket case, it is a boxet case. It had sat in California for several years and had back fees involve with a few owners before the guy I bought the car from brought to a small town in South East Arizona. He did not know what the car was and was going to sell it at a hot rod show. He thought he has a title but it turned out to be a 56 Flight Hawk he had. He filled out a notarized State of Arizona Bill of Sale. I got a private title company licensed with the state to do and inspection, and bond. The paperwork was sent to the state, research done and bond purchased with title paperwork in a month. Cost, $250.00. By the way, if the car was sold out of state with a bill of sale, the State of Arizona can take up to six months and decide to have a bond amount of full number one value on a car. Depending on who you deal with a the DMV, you can get 10 different answers to one question. It was easier to deal with a private title company than with the state bureaucrats.


That is what I had to get done but I have a clear title. Let me and others know how this plays out for you. I wish you well and maybe some light can be shed on how to save more Studebakers. Sorry this is so long.

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ

irish
09-11-2015, 11:31 PM
According to the Florida DMV if a title is lost all the owner has to do is provide there ID and $75 and new replacement title will be issued, a change of address doesn't matter at all. The key here is that Florida will issue the title to the legal owner they have on record. If this is a problem for the seller he is either very ignorant or has something to hide.

Joe

6hk71400
09-11-2015, 11:53 PM
See Post 13 The car was never registered in the State of Florida therefore there is no legal owner in the Sunshine State. I doubt if the Peach State has an owner of record either. This is why I am interested in how this all plays out.

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ

karterfred88
09-12-2015, 12:16 AM
Yikes--seems simple enough "on paper" you just need an approved inspection of the various serial, engine #s etc, and some signatures saying it was never registered if Florida, don't know where it was, if ever in the last 20 years:
http://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/forms/BTR/82042.pdf
http://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/forms/BTR/82040.pdf
go pay the local tax assessor and drive away.

candbstudebakers
09-12-2015, 01:53 AM
Read and re-read what poster #5 (dleroux) said. Something similar just came up in my Pinto world. A guy recently bought a car here in California. Took it to the DMV and SURPRISE there are over $600 in back registration fees. In Calif. if you don't Non-Op a car before the registration expires you are held accountable for those fees/fines even if the car sat on someones property on jackstands all that time (yes, you are guilty without recourse to prove yourself innocent). Our minimal registration is about $80. In just three years those fees/fines add up to $920! Timely filing of a $20-ish Non-Op status would have abated all that.

Living proof is to search Craigslist (California) and see cars linger month after month. More often than not is because the astute buyer finds out there are title ("Bill of Sale" means virtually nothing here) or back registration fees/fines making the "Deal" not one at all.

So, while this thread primarily concerns titles, be aware some states have registration laws that also cost dearly.

This is only true if you go into the DMV and don't know that they can not charge you any back fees or fines on any old car or truck that is older than 25 years and is a classic, most workers in DMV either don't know this and have not read their own manual or they are told not to tell any one that does not know this, all this info is on the internet just by going into California DMV it is all there in black and white, when I go in to take care of this type of transaction I take the right pages with me and prove them wrong if needed. California is easy to get a new title for any old car or truck you just need to know more then they do. and a clear title from California will work in any other state.

6hk71400
09-12-2015, 12:16 PM
In Arizona, you may know more than and have the documents to prove what you need to get a title. That means nothing if the moron at the DMV doesn't care about regulations or proof. The will have their eyes glaze over and dig in there heels just to show they are right even though they are not. The State of Arizona really does not care about collector cars or their owners. This state places a tax on the value of the car. Henceforth, all the money time and effort in the eyes of the state is fruitless. Therefore, buy a new car, state is happy to take $400 minimum on a new car. Try to buy an old car without paperwork, you will pay dearly in time effort and frustration dealing with the state directly. Go through an agent that is licensed with the state, usually smooth sailing.

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ

wittsend
09-12-2015, 12:37 PM
Bob, would you (for the sake of all car collectors in California) be willing to point to the specific codes that allow this? It is the first I've heard of it. In many, many years past you could just fill out a "Statement of Facts" saying the car was not on the roadway. Or, if it was 7 years without registration it dropped out of the system. Either covered you for back fees and fines and I too made use of those aspects. Today I don't think either apply (as far as I see what the DMV posts).

That said..., Going back 20 years (1995) I had someone give me a 1961 Corvair station wagon. It came to California from Michigan in 1971 and was promptly park and never registered here (a very good thing) and changed hands a few times. The guy who gave me the Corvair had a Michigan title that was signed over from yet a third party (and some time in the past too). The California DMV treated the car like it had just come into the state that day and never cared about the far ago date on the release. That is specifically what the woman told me. I still had to have VIN checked which required a second trailer rental but today (20 years later) it sits in my side yard, titled to me and on Non-Op status.

karterfred88
09-12-2015, 03:03 PM
This is only true if you go into the DMV and don't know that they can not charge you any back fees or fines on any old car or truck that is older than 25 years and is a classic, most workers in DMV either don't know this and have not read their own manual or they are told not to tell any one that does not know this, all this info is on the internet just by going into California DMV it is all there in black and white, when I go in to take care of this type of transaction I take the right pages with me and prove them wrong if needed. California is easy to get a new title for any old car or truck you just need to know more then they do. and a clear title from California will work in any other state.

I almost posted something like that yesterday, but wasn't sure if it was 20 or 25 years old that mattered. I used to live in Ca., and as an insurance adjuster, ran into this a couple of times. However you are too kind to the DMV workers, they not only know it, but are instructed to "not know it" till reminded, as it generates unearned revenue. I'm sure they won't offer you this if you've already were forced to pay those fees.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/connect/4949cf84-4360-4443-96f2-689375cb51f8/adm399.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

candbstudebakers
09-12-2015, 11:46 PM
Bob, would you (for the sake of all car collectors in California) be willing to point to the specific codes that allow this? It is the first I've heard of it. In many, many years past you could just fill out a "Statement of Facts" saying the car was not on the roadway. Or, if it was 7 years without registration it dropped out of the system. Either covered you for back fees and fines and I too made use of those aspects. Today I don't think either apply (as far as I see what the DMV posts).

That said..., Going back 20 years (1995) I had someone give me a 1961 Corvair station wagon. It came to California from Michigan in 1971 and was promptly park and never registered here (a very good thing) and changed hands a few times. The guy who gave me the Corvair had a Michigan title that was signed over from yet a third party (and some time in the past too). The California DMV treated the car like it had just come into the state that day and never cared about the far ago date on the release. That is specifically what the woman told me. I still had to have VIN checked which required a second trailer rental but today (20 years later) it sits in my side yard, titled to me and on Non-Op status.

When I find some extra time I will find the right pages and post them, but even in California if the car is from out of state or not in the system then it would need to be vin verified and a statement of fact filled out. the statement of fact only takes it off the back of DMV if something shows up later and comes back to haunt them. one does not need to haul it on a trailer to DMV they can have a cop or a certified person do the verifying and there is a lot of them out there they also do the paper work for lien sale cars.

sals54
09-13-2015, 02:04 AM
Bob's right about this. I've never had to pay back fees for getting a title for any of my Studebakers purchased without a title. And that includes cars purchased from out of state on bill of sale only.

bill matwijec
09-13-2015, 09:06 AM
I had a little issue in New York. All I can say is if the dmv. worker is not being helpful I would leave and go to a different one at another time. If you find someone who is trying to be helpful it makes a huge difference in working these problems out.

Jessie J.
09-13-2015, 09:33 AM
I have a bit of a different title 'problem' to yet resolve. When I purchased my '48 M-5 some 20 years ago I received the original title and dealer Bill of Sale in the transaction ($995 inc horn and heater).
The original owner had 'signed off' on the back of the title but left it undated. This vehicle is a 'barn find' that was parked in a Northern Michigan farmers barn back in 1956.
Other than accumulating parts I have done little to it over the ensuing years, it is a bit rough and weathered but all original right down to the original upholstery and wiring. Rigged up a gallon gas can and have started it on occasion, and even driven it carefully around the block (no brakes).
Moved it with me to Kentucky for a decade, and then back to Michigan. After all these years I expect that original purchaser (whom I never met) has passed on.
Never done anything about titling it, as I am in no hurry and certainly have no desire to surrender that old and original title to the DMV. Any suggestions about how to retain that original title, while attaining a new one in my own name would be greatly appreciated.

candbstudebakers
09-13-2015, 10:43 AM
Here in California I would just keep the old title and start over as if there never was one because either way I would need to go through the same steps to get a new one, when not in the system it is a lot easier then an old one that might have some issues from the past.

studegary
09-13-2015, 12:12 PM
I had a little issue in New York. All I can say is if the dmv. worker is not being helpful I would leave and go to a different one at another time. If you find someone who is trying to be helpful it makes a huge difference in working these problems out.

In NY, I have gone to three different DMV offices, in two counties, in the same day with the same paperwork for a Studebaker. I knew that I had what was appropriate, but most of the DMV people are not familiar with pre-1973 cars. I just keep trying different offices until someone approves the paperwork. You are then set from then on.

studegary
09-13-2015, 12:14 PM
I have a bit of a different title 'problem' to yet resolve. When I purchased my '48 M-5 some 20 years ago I received the original title and dealer Bill of Sale in the transaction ($995 inc horn and heater).
The original owner had 'signed off' on the back of the title but left it undated. This vehicle is a 'barn find' that was parked in a Northern Michigan farmers barn back in 1956.
Other than accumulating parts I have done little to it over the ensuing years, it is a bit rough and weathered but all original right down to the original upholstery and wiring. Rigged up a gallon gas can and have started it on occasion, and even driven it carefully around the block (no brakes).
Moved it with me to Kentucky for a decade, and then back to Michigan. After all these years I expect that original purchaser (whom I never met) has passed on.
Never done anything about titling it, as I am in no hurry and certainly have no desire to surrender that old and original title to the DMV. Any suggestions about how to retain that original title, while attaining a new one in my own name would be greatly appreciated.

I see no point in retaining the original tiitle. I have had many original titles (Studebakers and others). I just make a copy of them. I have even had the DMV make a copy for me (without asking). The copy still has all of the information on the vehicle and the original owner.

Jessie J.
09-13-2015, 12:47 PM
I could also make a copy of the original Bill of Sale. But its only the original paperwork once, and that is what I intend to preserve and to pass on.

57pack
09-13-2015, 03:12 PM
Ah, longing for the good ole days...here in NJ you used to be able to fill out a lost title form, a tracing of the serial/vin number and a check for five dollars mail it off to Trenton DMV and a month later you had a new clean title.
No so anymore. Now they put you through the tortures of the damned. :mad:

StudeRich
09-13-2015, 06:07 PM
Please do not forget people, it is a very BAD thing to hung on to these treasures for decades until their Titles are out of the system! :( DO NOT DO THIS, get ON that Title re-instatement!
If you do not, it won't be you with a problem, but your Heirs with a even BIGGER problem!

I could tell you lots of long stories about that, but suffice it to say, you could lose your Car, your right to it and a lot of money if you chose to do that.

When I tried to report a quite valuable to me at least Car stolen, the Police said a Car without a current Title "IN THE SYSTEM" is NOT a Car, but a piece of property that you will have to sue to get back, because it can not be reported as stolen without the proof in the Computer, it then becomes a Civil Case, NOT a Criminal one!
I do not know about other States, but this was Calif. in 2010.

6hk71400
09-14-2015, 10:15 AM
So Roy, after all this pontificating and verbal posturing, what do you think you are going to do? Any update on the State of Florida processes? Think you might want to look for another Hawk with title?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ

sals54
09-14-2015, 02:10 PM
I have a bit of a different title 'problem' to yet resolve. When I purchased my '48 M-5 some 20 years ago I received the original title and dealer Bill of Sale in the transaction ($995 inc horn and heater).
The original owner had 'signed off' on the back of the title but left it undated. This vehicle is a 'barn find' that was parked in a Northern Michigan farmers barn back in 1956.
Other than accumulating parts I have done little to it over the ensuing years, it is a bit rough and weathered but all original right down to the original upholstery and wiring. Rigged up a gallon gas can and have started it on occasion, and even driven it carefully around the block (no brakes).
Moved it with me to Kentucky for a decade, and then back to Michigan. After all these years I expect that original purchaser (whom I never met) has passed on.
Never done anything about titling it, as I am in no hurry and certainly have no desire to surrender that old and original title to the DMV. Any suggestions about how to retain that original title, while attaining a new one in my own name would be greatly appreciated.

It seems to me that your "uncle" left you this truck when he passed away. The title was lost in the move. Now you want to resurrect the truck in his honor. Who at the DMV is gonna turn you down with such a heart warming story such as that? Be creative.

StudeMichael
09-15-2015, 09:46 PM
Try this: http://benboyle.com/blog/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=74&v=M8sWBqgP1PI

Mrs K Corbin
09-16-2015, 06:42 AM
I think I would quietly get the Hidden ser# from the car and see if it matches the ser# and then run it thru the DMV to see if it's ever been reported stolen anywhere, before I went any further. Depending on what you're to pay for the car it might be better to pay one of those title services as they "Bond" the title. If it's a parts car, then I wouldn't worry about it, except for the running of the ser#'s.

joncon
09-16-2015, 06:59 AM
I have a bit of a different title 'problem' to yet resolve. When I purchased my '48 M-5 some 20 years ago I received the original title and dealer Bill of Sale in the transaction ($995 inc horn and heater).
The original owner had 'signed off' on the back of the title but left it undated. This vehicle is a 'barn find' that was parked in a Northern Michigan farmers barn back in 1956.
Other than accumulating parts I have done little to it over the ensuing years, it is a bit rough and weathered but all original right down to the original upholstery and wiring. Rigged up a gallon gas can and have started it on occasion, and even driven it carefully around the block (no brakes).
Moved it with me to Kentucky for a decade, and then back to Michigan. After all these years I expect that original purchaser (whom I never met) has passed on.
Never done anything about titling it, as I am in no hurry and certainly have no desire to surrender that old and original title to the DMV. Any suggestions about how to retain that original title, while attaining a new one in my own name would be greatly appreciated.

Not sure on MI but in Indiana they just void the original title and return it to you. The old title is no longer good since the new title in my name is in the system. I have done this on my 33 Ford and a 67 Chevy. I still have both titles for the Ford having sold the Chevy and gave both titles to the new owner along with the other paperwork.

cool58 Stude
09-16-2015, 10:29 AM
Just wondering what color the hawk is and what year. It's possible it could be my old one. Slim chance, but still possible.

It's red with white fins The car was sold in Clinton South Carolina at a dealer's lot Regards Roy B.

cool58 Stude
09-16-2015, 10:33 AM
I am having a Title Service getting me a title Registration and plates, then I can go to my DMV and transfer everything. Regards Roy B.

cool58 Stude
09-16-2015, 10:37 AM
Bob Miles, I went to a Tile Service and they are getting me a Title,Registration and Plates, Then I go to my DMV and transfer everything ( I Hope) Regards Roy.

6hk71400
09-16-2015, 12:28 PM
Great News! I always like a happy ending and a great beginning for a Studebaker being brought back!

Best Regards,
Bob Miles
Tucson AZ

rockinhawk
10-02-2015, 03:50 PM
Any chance we could get an up-date on this? I would like to know the out come and the name of the title service.

Swifster
10-02-2015, 03:57 PM
Why are YOU looking to title the car. Let the current sap go thru the B/S to title it. If he won't do it, walk away. My Commander was purchased in Florida and the title was incorrectly signed. I made him fix the title issue and threatened to dump the car back on his lawn. He got a title...

6hk71400
10-02-2015, 04:03 PM
Fla.
is a tough state to get a title when the car has not ever been registered in Fl. the car was sold to a guy in S.C. and he never registered it and sold it to another guy who did the same thing and there has never been a registered title to this car in the last 13 years it's been in a garage for the last 10 years here in Fl.

This is the reason why he can't get a title. After all this time, and the fact it is from another state, who knows where the original owner is that sold the car in the first place.

I went to a private title service in my state, got an inspection, and did get a bonded title for a 1955 Speedster

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ

Swifster
10-02-2015, 06:14 PM
Walk away unless the current owners wants to supply the title. Why should you do the running and chasing?

6hk71400
10-08-2015, 10:13 AM
How about an update? How is the progress going? Sometime dealing with these problems is like molasses pouring from a bottle in the dead of winter outside.

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ