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jbishop
07-18-2015, 02:56 PM
All,

I am putting together a 55 engine and transmission. 3sp OD and a 259. I have almost everything done but when I when to out the trans into the engine I noticed that it doesn't sit inside the large hole that looks like it should.

Can I just get this machined bigger? I have another bell housing but the holes for the trans don't line up. Any help would be appreciated, I'm trying to get this thing done for my wedding at the end of August and my back is really getting up against that wall.

TIA!

Jared

Alan
07-18-2015, 03:14 PM
Jared; We need pics. and measurements to answer your question. There were a number of bellhousings and trannys and Studebaker yelled fire in the theater in 58.

PackardV8
07-18-2015, 03:40 PM
All,

I am putting together a 55 engine and transmission. 3sp OD and a 259. I have almost everything done but when I when to out the trans into the engine I noticed that it doesn't sit inside the large hole that looks like it should.

Can I just get this machined bigger? I have another bell housing but the holes for the trans don't line up. Any help would be appreciated, I'm trying to get this thing done for my wedding at the end of August and my back is really getting up against that wall.

TIA!

Jared

Jared, Studebaker changed the transmission bell housing bolt pattern in '58. The '51-57 have a square pattern and the '58-64 have a tall rectangle, commonly known as a Ford pattern.

To further complicate things, there are 6-cyl and V8 transmissions which don't interchange.

As Alan says, photos and dimensions will help get it straightened out.

jack vines

jbishop
07-18-2015, 03:41 PM
http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l388/jbishop2/BEA5057B-530A-4D0D-84BC-65A20C066387_zps7zlp7fvr.jpg (http://s329.photobucket.com/user/jbishop2/media/BEA5057B-530A-4D0D-84BC-65A20C066387_zps7zlp7fvr.jpg.html)

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l388/jbishop2/5ACC331D-ED49-49D6-A7E5-3A33D460EACA_zpsvb6wcsla.jpg (http://s329.photobucket.com/user/jbishop2/media/5ACC331D-ED49-49D6-A7E5-3A33D460EACA_zpsvb6wcsla.jpg.html)

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l388/jbishop2/1FF3F42C-2666-4E3B-8E6D-7771AB323746_zps2iwpuzdf.jpg (http://s329.photobucket.com/user/jbishop2/media/1FF3F42C-2666-4E3B-8E6D-7771AB323746_zps2iwpuzdf.jpg.html)

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l388/jbishop2/3B1ADCB6-A0AE-42DD-86FD-38BF3419DEE8_zpskkbtmqb2.jpg (http://s329.photobucket.com/user/jbishop2/media/3B1ADCB6-A0AE-42DD-86FD-38BF3419DEE8_zpskkbtmqb2.jpg.html)

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l388/jbishop2/9AFB8188-77CC-4BA9-AEB2-5211D6FAF4C2_zpsjq8ithmr.jpg (http://s329.photobucket.com/user/jbishop2/media/9AFB8188-77CC-4BA9-AEB2-5211D6FAF4C2_zpsjq8ithmr.jpg.html)

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l388/jbishop2/EBE68D13-106F-4043-8898-2473962318B9_zpscq6plh6a.jpg (http://s329.photobucket.com/user/jbishop2/media/EBE68D13-106F-4043-8898-2473962318B9_zpscq6plh6a.jpg.html)

StudeRich
07-18-2015, 07:00 PM
Does that Clutch housing actually FIT your 259 V8?

It looks like it may be the shallow type for the small clutch/pressure plate of a '51-''54 232 V8.

Try giving us the Casting number on the Clutch Housing.

Have you already Dialed-in that Housing to center on your 259?

jbishop
07-18-2015, 08:44 PM
Does that Clutch housing actually FIT your 259 V8?

It looks like it may be the shallow type for the small clutch/pressure plate of a '51-''54 232 V8.

Try giving us the Casting number on the Clutch Housing.

Have you already Dialed-in that Housing to center on your 259?

I'm not really sure what that means but the motor was in a stand rebuilt with that bell housing attached. The guy I got the engine and car from said it was all original 55'. I will get the casting number tomorrow.

Thanks

Alan
07-18-2015, 08:54 PM
The size of the hole in the bellhousing looks to be a little over 4" That is Champion trans. size. The tranny front bearing retainer looks to be a 4.680" which is the proper size for the V8. Those pics. are slightly distorted, which throw out my micrometer eyes.

jbishop
07-18-2015, 09:03 PM
The size of the hole in the bellhousing looks to be a little over 4" That is Champion trans. size. The tranny front bearing retainer looks to be a 4.680" which is the proper size for the V8. Those pics. are slightly distorted, which throw out my micrometer eyes.

Those are about my measurements as well. Can I just machine the hole?

63t-cab
07-18-2015, 09:48 PM
Jared, check Your pm box "blue bar upper right corner"

PlainBrownR2
07-18-2015, 09:59 PM
Check your measurements on the second photo. Just looking at the photo, I can tell you that it's 4 inches in diameter from one end of the face of the input flange to the other end. The bellhousing also appears to be correct as I have a T86 bellhousing for a '55 Commander hardtop that also has a 4 inch hole.
The kicker though is that I had the same issues with getting the transmission into the bellhousing, and it revolved around the alignment of the pilot bearing in the crankshaft, with the alignment of the clutch and clutch splines. If any of those are off with the splines or the flange on the transmission, it's not going to go in. So, I took the bellhousing off, and loosened up the pressure plate on the flywheel, just enough to let the clutch slide around. I then slid the transmission in until the nose was in the pilot bearing, and let the clutch naturally center with the input shaft on the transmission. Once that was done, I torqued the pressure plate back up to specification, and put the bellhousing back on. Now, without touching or moving anything on the clutch assembly, the transmission should slide all the way into the pilot bearing, and then can be tightened up on the bellhousing. Easy enough! :cool:

jbishop
07-19-2015, 07:02 AM
Check your measurements on the second photo. Just looking at the photo, I can tell you that it's 4 inches in diameter from one end of the face of the input flange to the other end. The bellhousing also appears to be correct as I have a T86 bellhousing for a '55 Commander hardtop that also has a 4 inch hole.
The kicker though is that I had the same issues with getting the transmission into the bellhousing, and it revolved around the alignment of the pilot bearing in the crankshaft, with the alignment of the clutch and clutch splines. If any of those are off with the splines or the flange on the transmission, it's not going to go in. So, I took the bellhousing off, and loosened up the pressure plate on the flywheel, just enough to let the clutch slide around. I then slid the transmission in until the nose was in the pilot bearing, and let the clutch naturally center with the input shaft on the transmission. Once that was done, I torqued the pressure plate back up to specification, and put the bellhousing back on. Now, without touching or moving anything on the clutch assembly, the transmission should slide all the way into the pilot bearing, and then can be tightened up on the bellhousing. Easy enough! :cool:

From the picture I can see how it looks like 4" on the transmission but it's more like 4 3/4. I will try to grab a better picture and also get the casting number off the bell housing.

jbishop
07-19-2015, 08:03 AM
http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l388/jbishop2/7FF75483-EBDC-4D02-898A-0DA915D8C488_zpshltjw135.jpg (http://s329.photobucket.com/user/jbishop2/media/7FF75483-EBDC-4D02-898A-0DA915D8C488_zpshltjw135.jpg.html)

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l388/jbishop2/90E8AB17-C112-45B9-A60B-89CC933FDE75_zpscs8prnuv.jpg (http://s329.photobucket.com/user/jbishop2/media/90E8AB17-C112-45B9-A60B-89CC933FDE75_zpscs8prnuv.jpg.html)

TrickyRick
07-19-2015, 09:32 AM
Besides the hole in the bell housing the trans bolt pattern might be different.

Also with the bell housing bolted on the motor measure from the engine side of the clutch spline to the trans mounting face of the bell
housing. This will show any difference in the input shaft length.

gordr
07-19-2015, 11:21 AM
If the depth of the bellhousing is correct, which Rich says may not be the case, then simply changing the front bearing retainer on the transmission would solve your problem. Much easier than milling out the hole in the bellhousing, which would be a machine shop job. Suggest you find a piece of 1/2" wooden dowel, and a straightedge. with bellhousing looselu bolted to block, insert the dowel into the pilot bearing area of the crankshaft, withdraw it about 1/4", and mark it where it meets the straightedge laid across the hole in the back of the bellhousing. This will give you a good approximation of the effective length for the transmission input shaft intended to be used with that bellhousing. Now measure the length of the input shaft on your transmission, from the tip to the face of the transmission case itself. If it's equal, or slightly less, a new bearing retainer on your tranny, and you are good to go. If the shaft is longer, or exactly equal to your marked dowel, double-check your measurements to be certain, but expect to be changing bellhousings.

Alan
07-19-2015, 11:40 AM
Part numbers and casting numbers are 2 different things. 586, if those are the first 3 numbers, would put it newer than 54. That is as high as my books go. You should be able to find the proper bellhousing in your area. If you were around the Left coast I would just give you one, but back in MA, it would cost more than it is worth to send it to you.

unclemiltie
07-19-2015, 11:40 AM
I like learning new things and I just found out that the front bearing retainer is not the same on all transmissions. I have been trying to clean out some and one of the clean up areas is my spare transmissions. I just looked in the garage and I have 3 T86 trannys. Two are long tail and one is short tail. The retainer on the short tail is a little over 4" and the ones on the long tail are around 4 3/4. The retaining bolts on all are the same diameter so as was said above the best solution is probably to change your front bearing retainer. I previously had not looked at this and assumed all were the same I suppose the parts books would tell us when this changed

StudeRich
07-19-2015, 12:39 PM
Part numbers and casting numbers are 2 different things. 586, if those are the first 3 numbers, would put it newer than 54. That is as high as my books go. You should be able to find the proper bellhousing in your area. If you were around the Left coast I would just give you one, but back in MA, it would cost more than it is worth to send it to you.

It is 536288, there are no 586 Casting or Part Numbers.

jbishop
07-19-2015, 02:03 PM
I just did the dowel trick, everything bolts up bell housing wise and the tranny bolt pattern matches the bell housing. The input shaft on the tranny is about 1/2" less then what was measured with the dowel. Does anyone have a 4" bearing retainer they want to part with?

PackardV8
07-19-2015, 02:42 PM
I like learning new things and I just found out that the front bearing retainer is not the same on all transmissions. I have been trying to clean out some and one of the clean up areas is my spare transmissions. I just looked in the garage and I have 3 T86 trannys. Two are long tail and one is short tail. The retainer on the short tail is a little over 4" and the ones on the long tail are around 4 3/4. The retaining bolts on all are the same diameter so as was said above the best solution is probably to change your front bearing retainer. I previously had not looked at this and assumed all were the same I suppose the parts books would tell us when this changed

IIRC, some T86s were used in some 6-cyl pickup applications. So a short-tailshaft T86 may actually be a truck T90.

jack vines

unclemiltie
07-19-2015, 03:03 PM
IIRC, some T86s were used in some 6-cyl pickup applications. So a short-tailshaft T86 may actually be a truck T90.

jack vines

I never new that either, that may explain why the overdrive solenoid on the short tail t86 was a two wire instead of a three, it could have been in 63/64 truck.

jbishop
07-20-2015, 10:01 AM
I'm still looking for a bearing retainer. I have a call into Dave Thibeault and a bunch of machinists. If all else fails I can just get this machined and hopefully be on my way.

If anyone has a line on a bearing retainer, I will go that route.

Thanks,

Jared

unclemiltie
07-20-2015, 10:29 AM
You might try Gerry Kurtz from Dover, Pennsylvania. He rebuilds transmissions, not sure if he sells parts but should be able if nothing else to give you a source.

gordr
07-20-2015, 11:09 AM
Jared, I probably have a bearing retainer, but I'm in Alberta, and you are in Massachusetts. Shipping would be more than the part is worth. Any machinist with a decent sized lathe could skim that down in about ten minutes. Cast iron cuts like butter. Just take the bellhousing along so the retainer can be cut to be a free fit in the hole, but with zero slop.

PackardV8
07-20-2015, 11:25 AM
Jared, I probably have a bearing retainer, but I'm in Alberta, and you are in Massachusetts. Shipping would be more than the part is worth. Any machinist with a decent sized lathe could skim that down in about ten minutes. Cast iron cuts like butter. Just take the bellhousing along so the retainer can be cut to be a free fit in the hole, but with zero slop.

As usual, Gord's advice will git 'er done and if you have a nearby/friendly machinist with a lathe, go for it.

However, on Stude V8s, if one has to crank up the lathe or welder, the parts aren't correct for the application. The correct bell housing and transmission bearing retainer parts are still thick on the ground in the northeast, so FWIW, before paying the machinist, let's figure out exactly which transmission you have which doesn't fit exactly which bell housing you have.

Alan is more current than I am on this, but didn't some 6-cyls have an adapter plate to bolt up a V8 bell housing? If so, did the 6-cyl bell come with a small center hole? If so, is it possible he has a 6-cyl T90 bell housing? If so, how did the V8 T86 get together there? Any chance a 6-cyl bell is a different depth than the V8?

jack vines

r1lark
07-20-2015, 11:41 AM
Alan is more current than I am on this, but didn't some 6-cyls have an adapter plate to bolt up a V8 bell housing? If so, did the 6-cyl bell come with a small center hole? If so, is it possible he has a 6-cyl T90 bell housing? If so, how did the V8 T86 get together there? Any chance a 6-cyl bell is a different depth than the V8?
jack vines

The 8E ('63 thru '64) six cylinder truck engines used an adapter plate to allow a V8 bellhousing to be bolted to the six cylinder engine.

jbishop
07-20-2015, 11:54 AM
I will help with any information I can. I have been a ford guy my whole life so the stude stuff is all fresh to me. I just know I was given an engine/bell housing and trans and was told they were all part of the same puzzle which is obviously not the case here haha.

I appreciate everyone taking the time on this, and I have already learned a lot from this issue. I'm just trying to make the future wife happy.

karterfred88
07-20-2015, 12:26 PM
I "think" this may be the one you need-contact the seller and see if he'll measure it for you.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/181553624372?lpid=82&chn=ps

jbishop
07-20-2015, 12:38 PM
I "think" this may be the one you need-contact the seller and see if he'll measure it for you.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/181553624372?lpid=82&chn=ps

Thanks, I just reached out.

r1lark
07-20-2015, 01:10 PM
I'm just trying to make the future wife happy.

You are a smart man to have already figured that one out BEFORE you get married! A lot of men are married for many years before they get that part right. :)

Alan
07-20-2015, 03:28 PM
You can keep them happy, but not for long.

jbishop
07-20-2015, 03:56 PM
So I did my research, I think I am going to machine down the bearing housing, in the interest of time. I can have this back to me by Wednesday night. The bell housing already has the pins and I believe to be the one that came with the motor, that being said does anyone sell a tool that I can use to dial indicate the bell? I don't have a welder to make one. TIA, Jared

StudeRich
07-20-2015, 06:25 PM
Just put your Dial Indicator on it's Magnetic Base, attach to Crank or Flywheel and indicate (Dial) the Hole in the Bellhousing. The location does not matter.
If you don't have one, Harbor Freight has these cheap, a Dial indicator is very handy for many other things.

altair
07-21-2015, 01:23 AM
Facing your transmission as in one of your photos there is a boss in the casting towards the rear of the transmission there is a series of numbers stamped that will tell the application, year and the shift it was assembled. T 86 is just a casting number there are two T 86 models. In 58 the bolt pattern changed but the T 86 designation remained the same. The stamped number is the main key to its application.

jackb
07-21-2015, 05:13 PM
not knowing the answer, and hoping to help avoid yet further trouble: is everyone in agreement that once he machines open his bell housing that all will be fine ???

Alan
07-21-2015, 06:22 PM
No, he should get the right bellhousing, or the right throwout bearing collar, or have his old collar machined down. But I do not like the machined down collar, since it will machine down to an area that is a little thin.

RadioRoy
07-21-2015, 07:03 PM
Is it possible that the internal surfaces of the bell housing will not allow sufficient clearance for the clutch cover assembly?

I've never heard of having to machine these parts to make them fit. Something else is wrong and all of the "gotcha's" have yet to be discovered, I fear.

jbishop
07-23-2015, 08:54 AM
All,

I installed the machined retainer last night and everything is bolted together and seemingly happy.

I will keep you updated.

Thanks,

Jared

PackardV8
07-23-2015, 09:11 AM
Happy for you it's going together.

Still to be answered - what V8 bell housing would have come with a 4" diameter center hole?

jack vines

karterfred88
07-23-2015, 12:33 PM
All,

I installed the machined retainer last night and everything is bolted together and seemingly happy.

I will keep you updated.

Thanks,

Jared
Great--appears a few responses disappeared with the internal error encountered yesterday

PlainBrownR2
07-23-2015, 03:59 PM
Happy for you it's going together.

Still to be answered - what V8 bell housing would have come with a 4" diameter center hole?

jack vines


It's like I said, I took a bunch of these measurements off of my T86 bellhousing in the event I wanted to use one as a T10 bellhousing. My engine, transmission and bellhousing were out of the '55 last year for a rebuild, so I took the time to get a bunch of measurements before I put everything back together.
Anyway, the 1955 T86E-1A 3 speed with overdrive bellhousing for my 1955 Studebaker Commander hardtop has a 4 inch circle. The transmission was originally behind the 259 in the '55 Commander.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1090994_zpscuihx727.jpg (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/PlainBrownR2/media/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1090994_zpscuihx727.jpg.html)

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1090951_zpsnro6mrf0.jpg (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/PlainBrownR2/media/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1090951_zpsnro6mrf0.jpg.html)

Alan
07-23-2015, 04:11 PM
R2, If you run a dial bore gauge in there it should read 4.0625" That is 6 cylinder size. Oh!
Live and learn with Studes.

PlainBrownR2
07-23-2015, 04:19 PM
I'm talking in general numbers Alan. The 4 inch diameter should be slightly larger than the front bearing retainer to accept the transmission of course, but rest assured, that the bellhousing and the transmission did come from a stock 1955 259 drivetrain. The transmission behind the bellhousing, is a six bolt, T86E-1A, 6 volt overdrive transmission for a 259. All I did with the '55 was change the engine block to a later full flow 289. :cool: