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View Full Version : Cool/Heat: New water pump ??



Mike Van Veghten
06-09-2015, 12:37 PM
Ok...here we go again...(maybe).
Talked to a guy/company making water pumps for just about everything on the road. Mostly machined aluminum.

Who out there would be -
1. Interested in impellers only, that would increase the efficiency by about 100% (or twice as much), to install on "your" stock pump.
2. Interested in a complete aluminum, bolt-on water pump.

This is all in the, lay-it out on the table stage, and I'll be sending them a pump assembly and if there's enough interest, a whole water pump manifold so they can see "exactly" what they need to do to increase the efficiency and longevity.
Unfortunatly, because the stock pumps don't seem to have a long life, there's no way to remove this proposed new impeller once it's in place without warping it, or special home made tools. So bad bearings in the pump would also require a new impeller.

Leme know......

Mike

64V-K7
06-09-2015, 01:06 PM
Unless the blades were going to be made larger, how would an aluminum impeller increase efficiency?

StudeRich
06-09-2015, 01:16 PM
I would be all in for an Impeller that improves efficiency by double if it does not cause too much turbulence and too fast a flow to cool properly.

However I would never put Aluminum in an all Cast Iron Engine, that is just looking for trouble.
Can't the same design be made of Iron or Steel?

Mike Van Veghten
06-09-2015, 02:00 PM
Unless the blades were going to be made larger, how would an aluminum impeller increase efficiency?

Better shaped blade.
Full wall behind the blades for less internal leakage, better head pressure.
More blades for smoother flow, less internal leakage, better head pressure.
Blades tighter to the stock housing for less internal leakage, better head pressure.

A full new pump would use better bearings, be notably lighter, less friction, better seals.

Is this a cure-all for everyone's ills..no. Is this a big step for many ills, yes.

As far as aluminum around cast iron.........??????????!!!!!!!!!!!
Done ALL the time for many, many years now by most ALL hot rodders and most all of the factories....!

Mike

Skybolt
06-09-2015, 02:21 PM
The main concern I have is the actual flow. If too fast not enough heat soak occurs and therefore heat is not removed from the engine at the required rate. The flow of the standard pump is fine, as long as all other components are working well and in good condition. A few % might bring the flow to blueprint spec over the factory produced product.

It could be as easy as changing pulleys to ascertain a % over stock flow. Once that factor is known then a pump that flowed more could be required. Having a more efficient pump, irregardless of flow, could free up some HP, or fraction thereof.

Len

JoeHall
06-09-2015, 02:44 PM
I am all about drive-ability improvements, but from the school of, if it ain't broke don't fix it. I have not yet found one thing wrong, or shortcoming about OEM pumps, in any sense of the word. I prefer the HD version, but that is because I run AC in all Studes.

Lots of other things could use improvement, but water pump is not one of them. If I wanted more flow, I'd simply run a smaller pulley, but have not found that necessary. Just my 2-cents.

TWChamp
06-09-2015, 04:11 PM
I agree with Joe.

In fact Model A's often have so much flow that when a few radiator tubes get plugged, the top tank fills up and goes out the overflow. The car then runs dry and overheats.

Mike Van Veghten
06-09-2015, 04:34 PM
Other than the housing, there's no "heavy duty" pump. All impellers are the same.
The "Avanti" housing has ribs cast into it for strength.

As for the water flowing "too fast", that's why there is a restriction in the water manifold...the thermostat and the radiator itself. That is somewhat of a fallacy according to more than one thing I've read on cooling anyway.

Mike

jnormanh
06-09-2015, 06:09 PM
I would be all in for an Impeller that improves efficiency by double if it does not cause too much turbulence and too fast a flow to cool properly.

However I would never put Aluminum in an all Cast Iron Engine, that is just looking for trouble.
Can't the same design be made of Iron or Steel?

Why not mix aluminum and iron? There are millions of iron block/aluminum heads engines out there, running just fine and lasting a long time. In fact my old Caddy has an iron block and aluminum water pump. As does my '59 Sprite.

Warren Webb
06-09-2015, 06:31 PM
Flathead Fords have been notorious for years in overheating & many of the concerns expressed here have been echoed there too. Bob Drake has been a supplier & manufacturer for flathead parts for years & has just come out with a new water pump with many of the same characteristics that Mike has proposed. It would be wise for those skeptics to go to Bob Drake's website & read what they have done with their pump. I'm with Mike on this one. The design of the impeller especially is highly inefficient compared to modern designs. Better seals & bearings added in is a huge plus. I'll take 3 or 4 right now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxhexnjdRs8

stude dude
06-09-2015, 07:30 PM
Are we still experiencing problems with the new V8 water pumps? We have sold a lot of them over the past 15 years and are yet to have a single failure. Is the bearing the issue or the seal?

Chris.

Alan
06-09-2015, 08:07 PM
The seal goes first, then it takes out the bearing. All depends on who rebuilds them and the parts they use. But the Stude impellers are 4 vane and heavy. Some rebuilders use BBChrysler impellers that have either 5 or 6 vanes.

Skybolt
06-10-2015, 12:03 AM
Going back to your original questions and not getting caught up in semantics.

1. I would be interested in a better impeller. Would the stock manifold need to be resurfaced/machined to have more benefit for the new design?

2. I would also be interested in a new bolt-on water pump if it was stronger than the HD style.


Len

JLB
06-10-2015, 05:27 AM
Going back to your original questions and not getting caught up in semantics.

1. I would be interested in a better impeller. Would the stock manifold need to be resurfaced/machined to have more benefit for the new design?

2. I would also be interested in a new bolt-on water pump if it was stronger than the HD style.


Len

Ditto the above.........I'd be interested
John

Mike Van Veghten
06-10-2015, 07:48 AM
Some very strange comments...

It seems strange for the 'if it aint broke, don't fix it' crowd...!?
MANY companies have made a LOT of money making aftermarket things that are already on cars...from the factory, OEM...!
Water pumps are just one...of the many things people don't SEEM to NEED but buy.
Why, to make better, to make lighter (that Stude engine IS after all pretty light..!). things like manifolds, heads, carburetors, etc., etc., and yea, even water pumps..!
Good thing that MOST don't think this way, we'd still be driving model "T"s.


And, for those with some foward thinking (forethought)...
I'll keep looking into this, see what the costs end up to see if it's worth the time and money or just put a solid disc on the back of my impeller to "improove" the flow a little. Try to update the 1940's design a little.


And no. Unless your current manifold is bad (corroded pitting) at the machined surface where the blades should seal, I'm not currently looking to modify the manifold.
Replace that monster...yea, maybe. On my driver 54 wagon, an electric pump with a 3lb instead of a 25lb manifold may be in order in the future.
I removed about 2-1/2+ lbs of unneeded iron from my stock manifold. Not a big deal, but it made me feel a little better

Will update when I get answers back. Probably a few weeks from now.

Mike

jackb
06-10-2015, 08:51 AM
not interested....(just saying)

Chicken Hawk
06-10-2015, 09:14 AM
I must be interpreting something wrong here. All the pumps I have seen have six, not four, "blades, paddles, vanes" or whatever you call them. ??

Ted

Alan
06-10-2015, 11:50 AM
Ted; This is from my Avanti. I just made the aluminum housing. It has 5

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g171/artcloud/IMG_0671.jpg[/URL]