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View Full Version : Steering Power Steering Hose Routing 1963 Lark V8: Rerouting to underneath like Hawk,Avanti



tomhoo
05-22-2015, 11:27 PM
My Starting Setup - Attempt to be Factory Original:

I installed PS on my 63 R2 Super Lark and bot the SI kit with the loop spring, etc. but could only guess where the loop was anchored.

I put a spring tab on the steering column to box clamp and hooked the spring loop to it - this kept a steady aft pull on the hose loop from the Eaton pump.

The sleeve which keeps the two hoses together I positioned between the loop and the control valve.

PROBLEM: When the control valve is maximum forward position (RH turn to lock), it put a severe bend in the return hose where it was crimped to the tubing coming off the control valve - it is now leaking!

Here are some pics. I already have the loop off and if you look carefully, you will see the spring attachment tab on the steering column clamp.

44061 44062 44063 44064

The PROBLEM as I see it:

Assuming I have the basic routing "correct," the pump hoses, coming off their tubing at the control valve are pointing upward and forward so that the hoses can clear the steering box shaft when the control valve is Full Aft Position (FAP).

In the FAP, the hoses have the following bends starting from the control valve: (viewed from side from inside the wheel well)


Bend around the steering box shaft CW (about 135* bend)
U-Bend around loop CCW (about 180* bend)

The hoses are fairly happy when FAP.

However, the opposite is true in the Full Forward Position (FFP). Now the Loop Spring has a lot of force and is putting the hose crimps at the control valve in severe duress. Any my return hose failed (is leaking.)

The hose routing for the cylinder is fine. It consists of a single 180* bend and there is no strain on the hose crimps.

The hose routing for the pump has a stressed 135* bend which is simply a design to be avoided.

Solution - Single 180* Hose Bend:

With a single 180* bend, there would be no bending at the crimps and the control valve could move fore and aft without putting the hose under any duress.

Top Routing:

Tubing would have to be bent that would wrap around the steering box shaft when in FAP so that the hose would attach horizontally aft.

There would be a single 180* bend at the loop spring.

Bottom Routing:

Tubing would have to be bent that would allow the hoses to attach horizontally aft like the cylinder hoses. (This seems to be the way Hawk and Avanti are routed.)

I am not sure how the routing would have to change from the pump: The OE routing is simply aft, but if bottom routing, the hoses would have to go downward to frame bottom. The return line would be trivial, but the pressure line may need a different tubing end bend.
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One Other Solution: Vertical Pull Loop Spring:

If the Loop Spring was attached to spring tab where the master cylinder bolts to the PB booster, there would be an upward pull that would significantly minimize the return hose kink at its control valve tubing crimp.

While not ideal for hose articulation, this would be the simplest. However, this would be similar to OE and involve hoses rubbing against the exhaust manifold.

I can get hoses made locally (Murray Electric again) and perhaps just get the existing return hose recrimped.
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Suggestions?

I'm all ears because any of these solutions are going to be a major PITA.

tomhoo
05-23-2015, 12:28 AM
More on Vertical Loop/Pull Loop Spring:

A "Big Vertical Loop" would be another good routing:

The pump hoses would be vertical at the pump and mostly vertical at the control valve (there is some forward component to that angle, while not ideal, it does not seem to be excessive.)

This may be fairly easy since the only mod is the pump hose angles:



The pressure hose 90* tubing bend can simply be rotated vertically
The return hose will need a 90* piece of tubing spliced onto the reservoir nipple to get the hose vertical (a mochup is trivial.)


I've rotated the pressure hose and it looks good so far - but I need to get the return hose vertical too to see how they move together. And it looks like the loop spring may be unnecessary.

I'm going to dump out the reservoir so I can remove the return hose, simply position it vertically, and see how the hoses articulate. (I'll post some pics when I get this done.)

tomhoo
05-23-2015, 10:23 AM
What was the Original Bendix Application and how were the hoses routed?

The Stude applications with all the 180* tubing bends coming off the control valve is obviously a cobbling of the original design. If designed for the Stude, the Control Valve Ports would be laid out to eliminate these.

I know it was used on Fords and am going to try to find pics of the Ford applications. Ford used it 1958 Galaxies and up. Stude used it in 1959 but I don't have older shop or parts manuals so I don't know who precluded who.

Just checked my 1965 Motors and 1967 Chilton's manual and found little illustrations, however the Chilton showed a generic layout of the Bendix and it was a center link steering. Rambler used "power assisted steering" also in 1958 and Thunderbird too.

I think it is clear that the Bendix was designed for center link steering where the hose layout makes total sense. Unfortunately the proper way to route hoses (from an engineering perspective) is all running aft of the valve, then a 180* loop to the pump. The only way to do that is from the frame bottom as the cylinder hoses are. I guess Avanti figured this out.

NOTE: It might be cleaner to accomplish the 180* tubing bends (or 135*'s) with fittings allowing simple hose ends to be used. While it could be a cleaner installation, it would have more areas to leak.
Here is a pic of the Center Link/Idler Arm Steering used in Ford: http://www.stangerssite.com/PSoverview.html:

http://www.stangerssite.com/PS_linkage2.gif

And the beauty of the cylinder moving in concert with the control valve (!):

http://image.mustangandfords.com/f/9603085+w650+h650+cr1/mump_0701_01z%2Bpower_steering_system%2Bhoses_and_components.jpg

tomhoo
05-23-2015, 06:21 PM
My final conclusion: There are only two routing possibilities and they involve a single 180* bend (which is the design standard for hydraulic hose):



BELOW FRAME: 180* tubing ends on all 4 hoses at the control valve so the hoses are pointing aft, a 180* under the frame, and then forward to the cylinder and pump. This is the Avanti approach.




VERTICAL LOOP TO PUMP: Here the pump and valve hose ends are pointed upward and slide between the exhaust manifold and frame/steering box. As far as the loop spring, it would need to attached near the master cylinder and pull upward.


I'm going to work on the Vertical Loop since I don't have the will to buy or build new pump hoses with 180* tubing ends. I purchased the correct PS hose kit fro SI and I will make it work.

NOTE: while the hoses do touch the exhaust manifold when steering, there is absolutely no wear anywhere on the hoses or sleeve (the sleeve does the actual touching.)

If anyone has some tips on the Lark setup routing, I'd like to hear it.

Oh, and I'm probably going to have to cut/grind off the forward "nub" on the exhaust manifold since the vertical hoses are obstructed by it in the full forward position.

Now back to the garage...

doofus
05-23-2015, 06:57 PM
Tomhoo i added this type power steering to my 53 coupe. all hoses come off the CV and do a 180 ,loop through a screen door spring with sleeve then head forward. 2 stay under the frame going to the slave cylinder, the other 2 head up to the pump. i cut the ends off old hoses and had new hoses made up with compression fittings for old steel ends. spring pulls hose bundle rearward and downward. hope this gives you some ideas. Luck Doofus

tomhoo
05-23-2015, 07:31 PM
Doofus, that sounds like the "Avanti" setup where ALL the hoses have 180* bend tubing ends.

If I had known this, I would have ordered the Avanti kit instead of the Lark kit.

Here are some pics I stole from sbca69's post, "Avanti power steering system rebuild Q & A," http://www.studebaker-info.org/tech/sbca96/sbcapsteerctl/sbcapsteerctlm.html, of the 180* tubing ends on all hoses at the control valve (2 pics) and all the hoses doing a 180* loop under the frame (2 pics): (this is the proper way to route ALL Bendix PS in Studebakers)

NOTE: But even this layout at the CV is not good (see 5th pic.) The hoses are cluster on the outboard side of the CV instead of below where there would be more clearance.

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_042a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose002a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_Hoses/PowerSteeringHoses_new_001a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_Hoses/PowerSteeringHoses_new_002a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose007a.jpg

tomhoo
05-23-2015, 11:56 PM
UPDATE: The Vertical Loop mod is going to work.

I had to tweak the CV end tubing bends on return line - the one that got kinked and ripped.

I will also remove the reservoir return nipple and silver solder a 1/4" pipe thread in its place so I can then use a 90* 3/8" nipple fitting to match the vertical oriented pressure line.

I was going to clamp the return line onto its tubing with a hose clamp (which is possible,) but I will get a new piece of hose properly crimped (at Murray Electric again!) since might as well replace it if its out.

Should be done Tuesday due to the holidays. Sunday (tomorrow) I'll do the reservoir mod.

Too bad Bendix didn't make a CV with the ports on the opposite end...

doofus
05-24-2015, 09:13 AM
Thanks Tomhoo your pix are helping me with my 56 wagon project. it also has linkage type power steering and hodge podge hoses. Luck Doofus

jackb
05-25-2015, 11:30 AM
if you bought the hoses from our big vendor.....those pressure lines will/can leak....

tomhoo
05-25-2015, 12:12 PM
Oh Joy. (about the leak)

I cut the crimp off the Return line and it look nice and tight. Hopefully, they corrected the... oh wait.... I put those hoses on in 2001...

But the barb on the tubing was just a single asymmetrical bulge with no sharp edges.


Just watched a youtube video showing how hydraulic hoses are made up and the barbs they had were sharp and numerous along the entire crimp length - I'd guess (6) of them. So I'm guessing they may be prone to leaking.


At least I'm not fussy about cars that drip oil. That's the way they're supposed to be, right?

r1lark
05-25-2015, 04:17 PM
The last pic in post #6 appears to show one hose contacting the exhaust pipe.......but it may just be an optical delusion :)

tomhoo
05-25-2015, 05:55 PM
r1lark, I made the same conclusion - see my NOTE just before the first pic on reply #6.

It may be possible to adjust the hose CV orientations to get them more on the bottom of the CV instead of on its outboard side. If not, then properly bent hose end tubing could accomplish that.

Its almost like there should be a "180 adapter" for the CV that would be a manifold of tubing with a bracket holding fittings to which ordinary hoses could be attached. Trying to get the jumbled mess of tubes right may not be possible or may require assembly information that simply isn't available.