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View Full Version : Custom tube headers? Why doesn't anyone make them for Stude V8?



289stude
01-30-2015, 06:38 PM
It can't be that hard!! Or is it?

ddub
01-30-2015, 06:41 PM
Lack of demand?

DEEPNHOCK
01-30-2015, 07:03 PM
Don't be askeered.. Build some!

There are a couple three companies making flanges, and a couple companies selling collectors and tubing...
A couple guys talked about it, but nobody stepped up with orders...

Belond made some years ago....

40859 40860 40861 40862 40863

jclary
01-30-2015, 07:23 PM
While we are a rather large group, the number of us looking for custom headers is probably rather small. Many of us, are content to fix, patch, and simply putter around with a less than pristine performing engine. (Or like some of us...many less than perfect performing "stock" engines.) It's that ol' economy of scale thing. You can take the time to do a back yard work-up, and weld/bend/hammer out a "one-off" set, but to invest in equipment, jigs, material, and advertizing...to produce professional marketable repeatability...a whole 'nuther set of circumstances to kill economic feasibility and motivation.

Although the somewhat comical designation "CASO" is joked about us Studebaker folks...all good humor has an element of truth. Lots of enthusiastic potential Studebaker parts suppliers/dreamers have come and gone over the years. The remaining vendors are a tough skinned bunch, who, like our rides, have put up with and survived getting kicked around.

One possibility, is to use this forum to see if you can generate enough interest to produce numbers sufficient to motivate someone to "step-up" and build them. Perhaps the Racing Group guys will chime in.

PackardV8
01-30-2015, 07:31 PM
"Lack of demand?" For true. If the demand was there, someone would be offering them.

There's also the practical answer. The Studebaker V8 is intake limited. For exhaust headers to show a horsepower improvement, the first couple of thousand dollars must be spent on larger intake valves, porting the intake passages and a tall intake which requires a hood scoop on most C/K/Avanti. Then, the next dollars are spent on a performance cam and kit. Finally, headers are then required.

FWIW, I recently put a 308" R1 on the dyno. R3 headers through the mufflers showed no horsepower increase over stock R1 log exhaust manifolds. Got to get it in before getting it out is the limiting factor.

But never underestimate the bling factor. Recently, a guy I know spent $1000 for a polished early Offenhauser aluminum intake manifold and a shiny new Edelbrock carb. He asked me how much more horsepower it would make over his '56 iron intake and Carter WCFB. When I said "Less", he smiled and said, "I guessed as much, but it will look so cool at shows with the hood up."

Thus, if one were to go into header production, go with the shiny chrome-look paint.

jack vines

Xcalibur
01-30-2015, 08:06 PM
Of the half-dozen or so who might want AND actually BUY headers, no two of 'em ever seem to want the same thing done the same way.

Bob Andrews
01-30-2015, 08:28 PM
I can get them made locally, and thought about it. But as has been mentioned, they don't benefit anything, so I never bothered.

Studerick64
01-30-2015, 09:07 PM
You can blueprint the stock exhaust manifolds and eliminate some backpressure.

Mike Van Veghten
01-31-2015, 12:08 AM
Any header (tube OR iron casting) that has a smoother, cleaner passage WILL require an engine re-tune. If you do not re-tune, you will not gain anything. In fact, I've seen people install tube headers and loose power and be highly upset at the money spent and the work involved in the swap.
Out of a "few" people that I mentioned this to, most thought I was nuts, "this is a bolt-on, it should work as soon as I bolt it on my car"... The one or two that actually figured I "may" know what I was talking about...did so (re-tune the engine), and guess what, the re-tune netted quicker E.T.'s, AND a coupla more MPH on the drag strip than what was seen before OR with the new header, but "before" the re-tune.

This is NOT hearsay, this is first hand accounts.
One thing Jack does say is basically correct. A "stock" engine will most likely not show a power increase. Some head work, more carburetor, more ignition timing, more than a 3.31 gear in the back...you'll likely see some gain with tube headers and or the cast iron Stude header with changes like these.

One note on the Stude iron header/manifold...if your particular iron header/manifold is like the set I bought, the strange baffling NEEDS to be removed for the best outcome.

Mike

candbstudebakers
01-31-2015, 12:53 AM
I had a real larges set of full tube headers all the way down to a large collector, the inter fender needed to be cut so they would fit and as every one knows with the Studebaker the driver side always gets in the way of their steering set up and they would bang against metal with any engine movement, sold them on E-bay and they went like hot cakes.

Bob Andrews
01-31-2015, 08:44 AM
Now why did you have to mention hotcakes? I knew I should stay away from this forum. Now I'm off to the diner.

Flashback
01-31-2015, 09:24 AM
Your first answer is right on target. Not all Hot Rodders are racers. Most don't have access to a dyno, and tube headers just look cool. All the slide rule hot rodding in the world just doesn't make any difference. Some engine combinations respond in a positive way to headers, including gaining fuel mileage. Some don't. It's just like adding a high lift cam and nothing else. The big difference is, you can't see cams, valve springs, adjustable timing gears, porting, and any of the internal parts, BUT, you can see headers, aluminum intakes, big carbs and fancy ignition components. Agree or disagree with me, it's fact. Been a hot rodder for 59 years. I have built hot rods and I have built winning race cars. It's no were near the same thing. So, all the flow rates, ins and outs, make no difference. As was stated in your first answer "Lack of Demand".

52-fan
01-31-2015, 10:56 AM
I have always been told that most Studebaker engines just didn't see any real gain with headers. That being said, I really like the smooth look of the Belond style pipes on an Olds, Cadillac, or Studebaker with 3 exhaust ports.

Jeff T.
01-31-2015, 11:35 AM
It may just be be me but as much as I might want tube headers for the "cool" factor, I just do not have the time and energy to build them:)

dusty taylor
01-31-2015, 11:37 AM
here is some that i made. Dusty

PackardV8
01-31-2015, 12:40 PM
here is some that i made. Dusty

Excellent work, Dusty.

How much would you charge to make a set just like those?

jack vines

hausdok
01-31-2015, 01:32 PM
Jack's observations about breathing are right on.

Most of what you can get out of an engine depends on how well you manage the way the fuel and air is mixed and burned. Once it's burned and needs to be gotten rid of, a good set of headers will help a great deal; but fancy headers minus improved intake and combustion performance is just bling.

I've always been a fan of the little 215ci Olds V8 that my uncle had in his 61-1/2 Cutlass. Back when I was a mechanic and owned a Toyota Crown my plan had been to install one of those little Aluminum V8's in my crown but I went into the military and never got around to it.

I found and downloaded an article from the net that was written by Ray Block of Hot Rod magazine the first year those engines came out. The article compared two factory-supplied stock engines - one Buick and one Olds - and a series of performance add-ons were tried to improve performance. They began with engines that had less than 150 bhp out of the box and by the time they were done each 215ci engine was producing 1 hp per cubic inch with stock bores and doing nothing more than changing piston design, tweaking cam grinds, replacing intake manifolds, carbs and distributors and adding headers - all stuff that can be done at home and should yield good results if one makes the right choices.

It's a pretty good read because it was written back in a time when there were no computers controlling ignition and fuel systems and superchargers were still pretty basic; so it's pretty understandable for most of us dinosaurs. Even if one is not a mechanic, I'm confident that reading it will provide insight into how to go about getting the most one can from off-the-shelf parts and what off-the-shelf options might not be as good as others. Of course, the article was written nearly six decades ago and there are lots of todays technologies that might make it pretty irrelevant today; but I think it provides a good example of a common-sense approach to how one could explore performance possibilities for an old Stude engine using some of the off-the-shelf technology from the day,.......if you can find such add-ons, that is.

I suppose if someone had the time and motivation someone could try something similar using various Stude V8's. That's probably been done though. I'm guessing Granatelli did it when he developed all of those different R series engines.

For the do-it-yourselfer who might be interested, here's where you can download that article;

http://www.seight.com/images/tech/magreps/1961hrm.pdf If you're interested in

HUDSONBROTHER1
01-31-2015, 01:59 PM
The other thing a lot of guys like about headers is the sound difference.And I agree with a lot of the comments about tuning. Even a stocker can respond to tuning .

StudeRich
01-31-2015, 04:04 PM
These ARE amazing Jeff, they look exactly like a clone of the Factory R3 Cast Iron Headers, but in Steel Tubing! :!:


And I am sure they were made LONG before the Granatelli's ever dreamed of making those R3's.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40861&d=1422666119

PackardV8
01-31-2015, 06:00 PM
These ARE amazing Jeff, they look exactly like a clone of the Factory R3 Cast Iron Headers, but in Steel Tubing! :!:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40861&d=1422666119
Sorta close, Rich, but not quite; the R3 headers keep the two end and two centers separated a few inches further down and the end two sweep back close to the block and behind the center two.

jack vines

evilhawk
01-31-2015, 06:08 PM
would headers be beneficial on turbo charged studes?

Mike Van Veghten
01-31-2015, 06:42 PM
I might also mention that "many" Stude header designers seem to have this "need" to make the center tube WAY too large.
The trick here is...DON'T.
If you feel the need, 1.50" dia. end tubes with a 1.63" center tube about 34" long should show promise on most "properly" built Stude engines.
That is as has been mentioned, reworked heads, a four barrel carburetor, "properly" tuned, and a set of rear end gears that let...the engine "breath".

Those that don't understand or believe...no problem.
Funny thing about the internal combustion engine...they ALL...work under the same principles, the more air in...% matching air out, the more power. Doesn't matter if it's a Stude, a Chevy, Ford, Maserati or Hillman.

Mike

P.s. - evilhawk, depends on what the end power is designed to be. If you are looking for 5 or 6 psi, the stock manifold is fine. If you are going drag racing or Bonneville racing, then yes, again...a "properly" designed header will help.

PackardV8
01-31-2015, 07:13 PM
would headers be beneficial on turbo charged studes?
Current OEM turbocharged engines keep the turbo as close to the engine as possible. Since by definition a turbo generates backpressure, free-flowing exhaust headers don't show as much benefit and long tube headers lose heat to the engine compartment and lessen the flow/pressure. So short answer, no.

jack vines

dusty taylor
01-31-2015, 08:35 PM
Jack I do not have time to make more. It takes a lot of time. I like to do this kind of thing. But my wife is sick, going through chemo right now, actually the next 16 weeks. I really won't have time to do this till the end of the year, as she will be having radiation as well. Thanks for asking. Dusty

PackardV8
02-01-2015, 10:02 AM
Our thoughts and prayers are with her and with you as she goes through this difficult time.

jack vines

00RACER
02-01-2015, 11:17 AM
Here is a set a friend of my made

Flashback
02-01-2015, 11:28 AM
Here is a set a friend of my made

NICE. Is this an example of "equal length" design?

Deaf Mute
02-01-2015, 12:10 PM
must be fun changing THAT oil filter!

00RACER
02-01-2015, 02:28 PM
Yes, equal length and the filter is a piece of cake to change

SilverHawkDan
02-02-2015, 12:54 AM
One point that I didn't see mentioned. If you are using a supercharger headers will make a difference. The head flow issues are radically changed when you boost and engine. Same thing with the carb. A carb that would be too big for a naturally aspirated engine will work good on a boosted engine.

Quentin
02-02-2015, 09:17 AM
00Racer, scuse my ignorance - on pic two, what is the orange tubular item at rear of engine?? Cheers, Quentin

Mike Van Veghten
02-02-2015, 10:36 AM
Jack, all -

Not so right on with the turbo hearder comments...
At least not current thinking for those wanting to go fast..! Those guys go to extreemes to build nice turbo headers. AND the fact that MOST of them aren't on "short" tubes either..!

Hit up a PSCA or NMCA meet (LOTSA turbo cars), NHRA ProMod class cars and take a look around at the fast guys cars...! Many if not most turbos are in front of the engine, one FAST (a 215+mph, 299 cubic inch Ford) car that I know of, has two turbos up on top of each rocker cover.

So...a properly built tube header IS STILL the way to go...to go "fast".
As I stated earlier, for a street car with lower boost, cast iron manifolds are just fine. If your goal is to go fast, "design a proper" set of tube headers, make them stout (to suppoer the turbo), and then go have fun.

And again, a properly designed tube header will out perform a cast iron manifold...IF the rest of the "combination" is right.

Mike

P.s. -
Another place iron manifolds work well is on diesel engines...again lower rpm..!

00RACER
02-02-2015, 05:13 PM
Quentin
that is the exhaust pipe. Here is another pic

Mikado282
02-02-2015, 05:27 PM
That is one colorful chassis.

skyway
02-02-2015, 05:35 PM
Dusty,
Best to your missus and you, and

Really looking forward to seeing the '42 sometime!
Is St. Louis a possibility?
Gary K

DEEPNHOCK
02-02-2015, 05:43 PM
Jack, all -

Not so right on with the turbo hearder comments...
At least not current thinking for those wanting to go fast..! Those guys go to extreemes to build nice turbo headers. AND the fact that MOST of them aren't on "short" tubes either..!

Hit up a PSCA or NMCA meet (LOTSA turbo cars), NHRA ProMod class cars and take a look around at the fast guys cars...! Many if not most turbos are in front of the engine, one FAST (a 215+mph, 299 cubic inch Ford) car that I know of, has two turbos up on top of each rocker cover.

So...a properly built tube header IS STILL the way to go...to go "fast".
As I stated earlier, for a street car with lower boost, cast iron manifolds are just fine. If your goal is to go fast, "design a proper" set of tube headers, make them stout (to suppoer the turbo), and then go have fun.

And again, a properly designed tube header will out perform a cast iron manifold...IF the rest of the "combination" is right.

Mike

P.s. -
Another place iron manifolds work well is on diesel engines...again lower rpm..!

I agree with Mike..
I have seen some FAST race cars with the turbo's in the trunk...10+ feet from the manifolds..
First rule of racing... Rules are always to be interpreted...

dusty taylor
02-02-2015, 06:15 PM
No I broke my leg in 2014 so no work on the 42. We are going to be in st. Louis just to look. Thanks for thinking of us. Dusty

Quentin
02-03-2015, 08:23 AM
Quentin
that is the exhaust pipe. Here is another pic

D'oh! In an attempt to regain intellectual cred, I'll claim parallax error!
Outstanding work, Very neat.