Engine: Some interesting camshaft data

[PackardV8]

Recently a local Studebaker friend brought me an old Crower hot rod reground cam to check for him. He recalls the engine, with Jahns popup high compression pistons, beat a lot of good cars in its' day.

Another Studebaker friend brought me a NOS R1 cam he'd been fortunate enough to buy some years back.

I had an R1 regrind I have done by a local cam grinder.

I put them all three between centers and measured the lobe lift for all sixteen lobes on each cam.

The Crower cam was used and had been run hard, so I have no way of knowing what it was like when first sold, but the variation between the highest lift, .315" and the least, .274" was .041". The odd thing was there was only one lobe way high and one way low. The rest were closer together.

The NOS R1 looked beautiful, with the cosmoline still on it. The specification I have for R1 lobe lift is .2833". The interesting thing is there were three lobes exceeding this; .286"/287" and a few less, the lowest being .277". The variation was .010", but again, three high, one low and the rest close to spec.

I checked my R1 regrind and most of the lobes were in the 278" range, with the same .010" variation high to low as the NOS cam.

The takeaway is Studebaker's quality control was probably average for all manufacturers in the 1960s, but today's new cams off CNC machines won't vary more than .001". We'll probably never have that available to us, but I've marked the highest lift lobes on the NOS cam and I'm going to take it to my grinder and have him make a new R1 master from the best one. Then, I'm going to ask him if it would be possible and what it would cost to get all the lobes on his regrinds to within .005".

jack vines

[doofus]

Jack there was a west coast fello in Wash state regrinding cams some years back, maybe you have rediscovered him! ask about re-hardening reground cams. the ones i've had Comp Cams grind dont seem to last long. on initial fire up cam gets 20 mins at 2000 for break in with non det. oil then drained. Lunati's were about the same. only the early Chet Herbert regrinds seemed to last,100,000 IIRC . Doofus

[gordr]

Possibly a dumb question here. Is it possible that Studebaker measured the flow capacity of the different head ports, and then adjusted the lift of certain cam lobes to ensure even cylinder filling? And if Studebaker didn't do that, could it be done on a regrind cam? Say, if #1 and #7 don't flow quite as well as #3 and #5, you could give the former a tad more lift or duration to compensate?

[PackardV8]

Jack there was a west coast fello in Wash state regrinding cams some years back, maybe you have rediscovered him!

Yes, Delta Cams is still in Tacoma and still has Studebaker masters. No, their quality control is no better than my local guy and cams are heavy to ship and their prices are higher. Last one from them was also .010" variance.

ask about re-hardening reground cams. the ones i've had Comp Cams grind dont seem to last long. on initial fire up cam gets 20 mins at 2000 for break in with non det. oil then drained. Lunati's were about the same. only the early Chet Herbert regrinds seemed to last,100,000 IIRC . Doofus

No, no matter what name is on it, reground cast iron cams aren't hardened. The lobes are usually Parkerized coated to hold more oil during break in.

Maybe, relative longevity has more to do with the intensity of the the lift curve and the spring pressure needed to control it. CompCams claims to have high-intensity profiles which make more power, but put more force against the lifter and lobe.

Ed Iskenderian, from his lips to my ear, "It's not possible to put any real lift or intensity on a Stude cast core. The lobe diameter was just designed too small and you can't regrind air. The more racy the lift and duration, the smaller the remaining lobe and the faster it will wear. We used to build up the lobes with weld for our racing cams. They'd last a while in a 1/4-mile-only engine, but they'd die after a few thousand street miles. The weld would just flake off."

Have we seen any Studebaker regrinds from Chet Herbert or Lunati recently? I've seen Winfield, Iskenderian, Engle, Clay Smith and Crower. I'm sure there've been others.

Possibly a dumb question here. Is it possible that Studebaker measured the flow capacity of the different head ports, and then adjusted the lift of certain cam lobes to ensure even cylinder filling? And if Studebaker didn't do that, could it be done on a regrind cam? Say, if #1 and #7 don't flow quite as well as #3 and #5, you could give the former a tad more lift or duration to compensate?

Not a dumb question and yes, it could be done, but it would be bad science. I went to an engine building seminar and heard a presentation from a NASCAR engine builder. He said, in effect, "We've wasted thousands of design and dyno hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars with trying to grind a lobe for each cylinder. It's picking the flyshit out of the pepper. Never handicap your stronger cylinders. Spend your time trying to get any weaker cylinders up to the best you have." So no, while even is the ideal, I wouldn't give the good flowing cylinder less lift. The effort should be spent trying to make the manifold and heads flow as well as it can be to all cylinders.

jack vines

[wittsend]

I realize there is probably the intent to preserve the old here. However, with all the issues regarding soft cores, oil constantly having the needed additives removed etc., is it possible to run a roller lifter (and obviously a cam ground for such)? Perhaps the lifter bore could be enlarged or sleeved to fit an available roller lifter and adjustable pushrods should meet any size requirement. With a cam basically buried in the engine it is not something that would "show" on a concourse original car. I realize there is some cost involved, but when one factors the labor to frequently replace soft lobes on small cores it might not be as much. It is not something my CASO self would consider but obviously some have less issue spending the money.

Long term, roller lifters seem to be the future. For the '65-'66 Studebaker owners the Chevy engine offers the advantage to run a '86 - up block that is already roller lifter. In some cases the lift is actually reduced (duration maintained) on the roller cams because the ramp can be more aggressive and the cylinder fills at the same volume with the faster lifting valve. Another advantage, - if the rollers are good they don't have to be replaced with every cam change. This is the case on the Ford Lima 2.3 engine (Pinto/Mustang/T-Bird) when they went to rollers in the late 80's/early 90's. In my Turbo Pinto I swapped out to a roller cam/rockers (no lifters) for all of $24 thanks to a Pick A Part 50% off sale. I guess that it the advantage to a long running engine in a changing world.

[Alan]

Not for CASO's. $650 for cam. $450 for Chrysler rollers, .903". Then they have to use the short Chevy V6 dog bones. $150 for a set of Smith Bros. push rods. $150 for an Aluminum cam gear.

[PackardV8]

FWIW, stock Stude V8s have such low lifts and soft valve springs, they seldom-to-never have cam and lifter trouble, even with today's oils. It's when we get ambitious, start increasing intensity and spring pressure, then there can be issues.

And yes, I've got a streetable roller cam setup available for $1995 any time anyone is feeling racy.

jack vines

[Mike Van Veghten]

witt -

A couple of years ago, as advertized on the Stude racing site, I hade a BUNCH of roller cams made up. As I recall, about 23 or 24 total. Most bought one, some bought two, I "ended" up with three.
And, as Alan sorta says, Existing Chrysler lifters work in the Stude block.

So yes, it is more thAn possible to have roller cams done.

Mike

[63 R2 Hawk]

I have a John Erb cam in my R2 hawk that's supposed to be sorta like an R2 plus. I'm not going to pull it out and vee block it to measure lift and consistency, but does anybody know the specs on this cam? Also wondering about lifter clearance, IIRC, it is spec'd at 0.018 hot for both I & E, does that sound right?

[Chicken Hawk]

witt -

A couple of years ago, as advertized on the Stude racing site, I hade a BUNCH of roller cams made up. As I recall, about 23 or 24 total. Most bought one, some bought two, I "ended" up with three.
And, as Alan sorta says, Existing Chrysler lifters work in the Stude block.

So yes, it is more thAn possible to have roller cams done.
Mike

Mike please send me an emai @ tedharbit@aol.com I have some questions about your roller cams.

Ted

[Dwain G.]

This looks like a good thread to show the old cam card I just found. We were gonna build a really hot Stude race only engine back in the early '60s. This company advertised in Hot Rod Mag every month at that time. They would put any grind on any cam! At urging from my buddy I ordered an Isky 5 cycle grind. Suuure!
We never did use it, but I gave it to some dirt tracker friends 10 years later. They used it up in one night.

[Alan]

Dwain; That cam card says chilled iron lifters, which means that the cam was a hard face overlay or welded cam. If you used harden-able iron lifters or if the lifters did not start spinning on start up you could kiss that cam goodby.

[Skybolt]

I have a hard face overlay cam ground by Schooler Cams. I have no idea of the specs but if someone would like to check it out it is sitting on a shelf just waiting.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?66624-Schooler-Camshaft

Might have to follow up on this cam, although I decided to play it safe with a more traditional cam for my engine.

Len.

[PackardV8]

I have a hard face overlay cam ground by Schooler Cams. I have no idea of the specs but if someone would like to check it out it is sitting on a shelf just waiting.

As previously mentioned, hard-face overlay cams are race-only and require chilled iron lifters which are NLA. If you got the lifters with the cam, it could be used in a 1/4-mile application. If not, it's just a paperweight.

jackvines

[HUDSONBROTHER1]

I have used cams from Schneider for a while. Very good to deal with. They also make a 256 degree cam profile also. I have a 274 degree that I have not used. I have used both the 264 and 256 degree cams.They ground me a hot cam for a Terriplane motor,a big Hudson 6 and other s. My friend had a hot grind done for a Studebaker straight 8 for the late Darrel Dye when he had his shop in Oceanside. Just another option for cam grinds.