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Jerry Forrester
12-04-2014, 08:33 PM
If one of you guys can't supply Buttercup with a pair of traction bars I will be forced to fabricate them.
I have a friend here in Douglasville that has an NOS set. But he's a hoarder and won't sell them. He said he'll loan them to me to use as a pattern if I wanted to fab a set.
I had rather buy a ready made set.

Here's a pic of the ones Tex (Flashback) has on the Saturday Night Special. This is what I need for Buttercup.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn320/Flashback53/53getsexhaust011.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Flashback53/media/53getsexhaust011.jpg.html)

Any and all help appreciated.

PackardV8
12-04-2014, 08:49 PM
If you decide to fabricate, you might consider copying the newer CalTrac bars, rather than the old TractionMaster design.

jack vines

benaslopoke
12-04-2014, 09:28 PM
Jerry, might want to reframe using that type design.. I had a set of Traction Masters on my hot rod 1955 Pontiac and broke two axles off up in side of the pumpkin.. Completely having to tear apart the rear end twice.. I can only guess what it would have done to Buttercup's stock tapered axles, oh well, axle keys..

Ben

sweetolbob
12-04-2014, 09:41 PM
If you are building your own, here's the Gibbs thread.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?12645-New-traction-bars&highlight=caltrac

Dick Steinkamp
12-04-2014, 09:56 PM
I've had good luck with just plain old slapper bars.

Here's thread on the comparison...

http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=139834

Others here...

https://www.google.com/search?q=slapper+bars&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb#rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&q=slapper+bars+vs+caltracs

ndynis
12-04-2014, 10:33 PM
I have a set that came off my 61 Hawk. I'll try to post pictures of them tomorrow. I have no need for them.

TrickyRick
12-05-2014, 09:14 AM
What about rebuilding the leaf springs to have a stiffer front section or a thick bottom leaf in the front?

Pat Dilling
12-05-2014, 10:28 AM
Here are pictures and description of the traction bars I made for my '53. I am pleased with the way they work. Wheel hop is completely gone, ride is stiff but acceptable.

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/journal.php?action=view&journalid=33611&page=2&perpage=5&reverse=0

63larkr1
12-05-2014, 11:14 AM
My bars. They work great.
Richard

StudeRich
12-05-2014, 02:08 PM
For a not too wild powered, street driven car, you could just buy New Original Type Super Hawk Radius Rods from a Studebaker Vendor and not have them showing under the Car. No "Search" for them is required. :)

ndynis
12-05-2014, 06:23 PM
397283972739729
Here are the ones off my Hawk (I hope they are going to show)

SN-60
12-06-2014, 02:47 AM
For a not too wild powered, street driven car, you could just buy New Original Type Super Hawk Radius Rods from a Studebaker Vendor and not have them showing under the Car. No "Search" for them is required. :)

I agree, low mount traction bars do the job...but are unfortunately quite visible from a side view, a look that I think takes away from the car.

StudeRich
12-06-2014, 03:20 AM
Here are the ones off my Hawk (I hope they are going to show)

Any idea what brand of aftermarket Traction Bars those are? FMW does not sound familiar.

Pat Dilling
12-06-2014, 07:51 PM
Any idea what brand of aftermarket Traction Bars those are? FMW does not sound familiar.

Those appear to be Traction Masters, or a knock off of same. www.tractionmaster.com

I'll retract that, similar design but the plates look to be cast rather that stamped like the current Traction Masters.

Mike Van Veghten
12-06-2014, 09:23 PM
A solid bar NEEDS to be the same length as the front of the spring, axle center to spring pivot.
Otherwise the suspension WILL bind. No matter what someone may "think" is happening...as I've said about front end changes...it's just Geometry, high school geometry. If it's not right, it's just not right. That one reason the "slapper bar" was so popular in the 60's/80's. They didn't have to be exact anywhere in their design...though even with them, the closer the contact point is to the spring pivot is...the better they work also.

The Cal-Tracks type bars and the Competion Engineering bars (Slid-a-Link) will provide the best of both worlds in traction, street ability and longevity of the bars AND the cars suspension components.

I've been thinking about the Slid-a-Link bars for my wagon...IF...it needs it, when its finally on the road.

Mike

ndynis
12-06-2014, 09:33 PM
The plates are cast. I have no idea who made them. The Hawk they came from was parked in the father's insulated barn in 1970 until I purchased it in 2009. I just don't have any use for traction bars. Installed a heavy duty sway bar instead.

63larkr1
12-07-2014, 06:01 PM
An idea of how they work on my car. Studebaker powered with one carb, no other power adders.
I don't care what you use; I just don't want you to go through what I went through before I made them. I went to Jerry Bickel's chassis building class and this works but you can make a better set with not much work. Good luck.

Richard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZe27IFL_iU

Chicken Hawk
12-07-2014, 07:54 PM
Jerry, don't know what your plans are but no matter, I don't think you will need anything better than what ndynis, Pat, or Richard shows. These are all similar to what I had on the Chicken Hawk during the years running the US Nationals and they worked fine. Of course you could say, "Sure with that little 232 you wouldn't need much"; however, look at what Richard has done with those on his car! I don't recall the exact 60' times he is getting with them but it is almost unbelieveable how good they work for him.

Richard, if you would post your 60' times. And to give you an idea, anything under 1.80's is considered a GOOD 60' time unless you have big slicks and a powerful engine. The best 60' times I had with the Chicken Hawk with the 289 with turbos was mid 1.40's with 10.07 quarter times.

Ted

63larkr1
12-08-2014, 10:28 AM
Ted,
My 60' times are in the 1.5s so far, with a Studebaker V8. I'm still using a DANA 44 with 4.09 gears and stock 6 cylinder front suspension. It’s a stick shift with stock springs. We’re always looking to improve performance so if you find a better way let me know. I'm sure we can improve on what I have.
Thanks Ted,
Richard

Michidan
12-08-2014, 12:18 PM
My November project was to extend my traction bars, and get the snubbers under the spring eyes. I enjoy spending time in my shop more than spending my money, so it was easy and fun.
I have no real experience with any system other than slappers like these. But this car launches hard and straight. Spring wrap is not a problem.

Alan
12-08-2014, 12:48 PM
Dan; That is what worked best on my 53K. With the shorter bar I bent the main lief, so went to putting the snuber under the front eye.

PackardV8
12-08-2014, 01:57 PM
Designing a "traction bar" is always a sliding scale depending on what factors are most important.

1. For those who drag race regularly and don't put on many street miles, it's all about the best 60' times. Deterioration of ride quality, increased road noise transmission and visible appearance is not a concern, so the straight traction bar below the axle or the slapper bar are good choices. Ease of installation is also a concern for some and both of these can be a bolt-on.

2. For those who just want to "git on 'er" once in a while, but don't want to have anything visible below the spring and don't want more noise or ride harshness, the factory above-the-axle traction bars are a good choice. Downside is they don't control the axle as well on drag launches unless harder bushings are used. They do require welding brackets onto the axle tubes and frame.

3. Many feel the best compromise for hard launch control and still maintaining reasonable ride is the CalTrac or Competition Engineering bar designs. They're also the most expensive and can be the most difficult to fabricate and mount.

Bottom line - all the devices thus far suggested in this thread work or they wouldn't exist and be recommended. Do the equation as to cost, difficulty of installation, appearance, launch control, noise transmission, ride quality and the answer will be different in each application.

jack vines

Chicken Hawk
12-08-2014, 04:14 PM
Ted,
My 60' times are in the 1.5s so far, with a Studebaker V8. I'm still using a DANA 44 with 4.09 gears and stock 6 cylinder front suspension. It’s a stick shift with stock springs. We’re always looking to improve performance so if you find a better way let me know. I sure we can improve on what I have.
Thanks Ted,
Richard

Sixty foot times with your set up has to show it is about as good as it can get. You HAVE to NOT be getting wheel hop or much tire slippage to get 1.50's time so I don't see how ANY other set up could be any better until maybe you get enough more power to get into the 10's!

Ted

Ted

Pat Dilling
12-09-2014, 11:29 AM
Here are pictures with measurements from Dan McDonald that I used to design my traction bars. My thanks to Dan for taking the time to take these pictures and send them to me. They are on his '53 Starlight that was at the IM on Glendale, AZ. Using this design mine are not visible from the side unless you get down and look under the car. They are quite a bit shorter than the ones on Richard Poe's car. They actually are mounted to the inside of the spring instead of under it. This may not be optimum for traction but seems to prevent wheel hop. On a well prepped track I have achieved 60' times of 2.0 and 2.05 with 235R70-15 street radials with 25 pounds of air. On an un-prepped track I have gotten consistent 60' times in the 2.19 - 2.24 range. I chose this design for several reasons, they have a traditional look similar to Traction Masters; they do not hang down significantly below the springs where they might scrape on road obstacles like slapper bars can; they were simple to make and install; and they work for my purposes. As the saying goes, your mileage may vary.

PS I have just included pictures of Dan's car including one of Dan his own self rubbing on it. You may recognize it as one of the cars on recent SDC posters. I think it is on the Different By Design poster

63larkr1
12-09-2014, 06:27 PM
Pat,
I like your setup. One thing to note is the centerline of the rear axle housing on your car is higher than the front of the rear leaf spring mount. On a Lark type the spring has more arc to it and the spring mount is higher than the axle housing center line. This causes hop, and spring wrap. The Avanti has a couple inches less arc than a Lark and that helps the Avanti with wheel hop and 60’ times. Avanti’s rarely hop. Your car has even flatter springs, so it should work well compared to a Lark type.
Richard

Joe Flannery
12-09-2014, 11:03 PM
My Lark is running a Fox body Mustang pinion snubber . At the pure stock drags that was all I had to keep it from hopping. I adjusted it close to the nose on the differential. I had to raise it back up for the ride home.Cheap and effective. The car needs more gear. A 4 speed and 3.07s are not the ticket for great ETs. The pinion snubbers are available from any speed shop online,you will need to make a bracket to attach it to body.

sweetolbob
12-10-2014, 10:45 AM
My Lark is running a Fox body Mustang pinion snubber . At the pure stock drags that was all I had to keep it from hopping. I adjusted it close to the nose on the differential. I had to raise it back up for the ride home.Cheap and effective. The car needs more gear. A 4 speed and 3.07s are not the ticket for great ETs. The pinion snubbers are available from any speed shop online,you will need to make a bracket to attach it to body.

Joe, This is not a slam because I love to watch Stude run well at PSMCD's but how does a Fox bodied snubber work under the rules? Just curious not a criticism. Bob

PackardV8
12-10-2014, 11:16 AM
Joe, This is not a slam because I love to watch Stude run well at PSMCD's but how does a Fox bodied snubber work under the rules? Just curious not a criticism. Bob


Rear Suspension: Stock springs and shocks must be retained. Traction devices are limited to hop-stop bars for the upper control arms on coil-spring cars. Pinion snubbers and clamping of springs are allowed on leaf-spring cars. No slapper bars or ladder bars of any kind allowed unless originally equipped from the factory. Factory documentation will be required to prove authenticity for any car equipped with bolt-on traction devices. No dealer-installed traction devices allowed. Aftermarket upper and lower control arms for coil-spring cars are not allowed. Raising or lowering of the rear end is not allowed.

Back in the day, when traction bars were not allowed in Stock classes, as previously mentioned, we'd use a pinion snubber, extended to touch for launch, removed or lowered for the ride home.

We'd also make spring clamps from straps of 1/4" thick x 1" wide steel and two 1/4" bolts; these were tightened at the end of each spring leaf on the front of the axle.

Before TwinTraction was commonly available, we'd use a longer shackle on the right side to put some pre-load on that tire.

jack vines

wittsend
12-10-2014, 12:00 PM
The Sunbeam Tiger uses a Dana 44 like many Studebaker's. The "bar under the spring" like that discussed here has proven problematic on the Tiger. The version that has a mount forward of the front spring mount causes binding problems as mentioned. A similar bar that simply clamps near the frame eyelet on the spring itself has proven a better option, but not best. A Tiger enthusiast created a single, center mount bar that has been said to provide better results. It bolts to the rear cover location and moves forward to a frame point where it pivots. People are happy with the results. For the most part it should be unseen from the side. Here is a link (scroll down) http://www.catmbr.org/VB_forum/showthread.php?t=1935

A point not often discussed when addressing traction aids is the (at times adverse) effect on braking. I'm no expert on the matter, I'm only mentioning that it occurs.

sweetolbob
12-10-2014, 12:30 PM
I understand what an axle snubber does and, in fact, we used the clamp/extra spring thing back in the 60's but my question remains, What's stock about a Fox axle snubber on a Studebaker? Again just curious not critical.

Bob

Joe Flannery
12-10-2014, 12:50 PM
I understand what an axle snubber does and, in fact, we used the clamp/extra spring thing back in the 60's but my question remains, What's stock about a Fox axle snubber on a Studebaker? Again just curious not critical.

Bob

Bob,
I read the rules. It states that you can't use an after market set of ladder bars, slapper bars etc. It also says that additional spring leafs are not permitted. But it did say you can use a pinion snubber. So I did. It saved my butt. If I didn't have that I would have probably blown the driveshaft out of it. It wouldn't be the first time either. Once was enough. I jacked the car back up before the ride home and pushed it back up and reinstalled the pin.
I made a mounting braket from some scrap steel that I had around and bent it 90 degrees. Welded the pinion snubber base to it and made it a bolt-on to the bottom of the body. I also have a set of the Dan Giblin bars that I use on the street, not legal for PSMCDs and obvious. I had the adjustable Phil Harris radius rods on the car too. I broke the weld to the right side at the PSMCDs. My fault that the weld failed. Maybe in the future I will install new floors in the car and get someone with a stick welder to mount the anchor for the front of the radius rod. My Mig didn't have adequate heat penetration.
That pinion snubber was all I had, and it worked well. Maybe next year I will break into the 13s. I intend to Re-ring the engine over the winter. It used a bit of oil on the 650 mile trip to Michigan. I am losing power as a result of a poor ring seal. I love driving the car to the track and running it, where ever the track may be.

PackardV8
12-10-2014, 01:37 PM
The Sunbeam Tiger uses a Dana 44 like many Studebaker's. The "bar under the spring" like that discussed here has proven problematic on the Tiger. The version that has a mount forward of the front spring mount causes binding problems as mentioned. A similar bar that simply clamps near the frame eyelet on the spring itself has proven a better option, but not best. A Tiger enthusiast created a single, center mount bar that has been said to provide better results. It bolts to the rear cover location and moves forward to a frame point where it pivots. People are happy with the results. For the most part it should be unseen from the side. Here is a link (scroll down) http://www.catmbr.org/VB_forum/showthread.php?t=1935

A point not often discussed when addressing traction aids is the (at times adverse) effect on braking. I'm no expert on the matter, I'm only mentioning that it occurs.

FWIW, I've made several variations of fixed length traction bars for the Tiger. They all result in some binding at some point in travel. A leaf spring causes the rear axle housing to move in an arc. That's why there is a rear shackle; to accomodate the axle housing movement. No fixed length traction bar can do that; hence the binding.

And yes, all the fixed length traction bars henceforth discussed for Studebakers will bind at some point in travel also. The Studebaker is heavier and uses a longer spring, so the binding is just not as noticeable as in the smaller, lighter shorter Tiger.

The torque arm shown in the Tiger forum has been around since the dawn of the Hotchkiss rear suspension. Chevrolet used it on the Vega and some Camaros in the 1970s.

jack vines

sweetolbob
12-10-2014, 02:20 PM
Bob,
I read the rules. It states that you can't use an after market set of ladder bars, slapper bars etc. It also says that additional spring leafs are not permitted. But it did say you can use a pinion snubber. So I did. It saved my butt. If I didn't have that I would have probably blown the driveshaft out of it. It wouldn't be the first time either. Once was enough. I jacked the car back up before the ride home and pushed it back up and reinstalled the pin.
I made a mounting braket from some scrap steel that I had around and bent it 90 degrees. Welded the pinion snubber base to it and made it a bolt-on to the bottom of the body. I also have a set of the Dan Giblin bars that I use on the street, not legal for PSMCDs and obvious. I had the adjustable Phil Harris radius rods on the car too. I broke the weld to the right side at the PSMCDs. My fault that the weld failed. Maybe in the future I will install new floors in the car and get someone with a stick welder to mount the anchor for the front of the radius rod. My Mig didn't have adequate heat penetration.
That pinion snubber was all I had, and it worked well. Maybe next year I will break into the 13s. I intend to Re-ring the engine over the winter. It used a bit of oil on the 650 mile trip to Michigan. I am losing power as a result of a poor ring seal. I love driving the car to the track and running it, where ever the track may be.

Thanks Joe, I assumed it was legal as the Stude guys are that way but I was just curious. A great idea to help traction and work within the rules. Very much like the old days of drag racing when we ran pure stock classes. Making these small/legal additions were what made racing in the 50/60's fun.

Hope you hit the 13's next year and I'm there to see it. :)

Bob

ed peters
12-12-2014, 06:01 PM
I would like a set also....I would rather have an original set....im gonna have to find a name for my silver tub.... :)

Flashback
12-12-2014, 06:44 PM
I went out and talked this over with the Saturday night special, and we got out the slide rule and wore the numbers off it trying to figger out how we made these bars work???????????? Then I looked back on the past and tried to guess how they worked on the cars I dragged raced for 20 years. The daily driver corvette I drove for 5 years didn't know Traction Masters didn't work. I am still scratching my head trying to make these thangs rocket science. I guess the best thing I can say and the only explanation is "They HAVEN'T worked for me for 55 years. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

Jerry Forrester
12-12-2014, 06:46 PM
I scored a set of bars on the bay. Scott Drake brand. They are new but have dust on them from laying on a garage shelf for a couple of years.

https://i.imgur.com/KK0B8ll.jpg

They were designed for the '67-70 Mustang.
They came in yesterday and I laid one beside the Stude spring and it is the same exact length from eye to eye as the spring is from center bolt to front eye.
The holes in the u-bolt plate will have to be elongated to fit the Stude's u-bolts because I will be running springs that are only 1 3/4" wide (more on this later).
The plate that welds onto the bottom of the frame plate will have to have holes drilled in it for the rivets heads that hold that plate onto the frame.
I want to thank everyone that has replied to this thread (and PM's) and offered advice and related how things worked and are working for them.
I'll be sure to post more pix of the installation.

For you that think these bars will work for you, Summit Racing Euip. has them. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sdk-tm-1068-r/overview/make/ford/model/mustang

63larkr1
12-13-2014, 03:58 PM
Jerry,
Great choice for your car, you will be happy with this setup on a street driven car. The stock type or the caltrac wouldn’t work as well as this will.
I look forward to seeing how well you like them. I would use these on my street driven sometime drag Studebaker, but for my track car what I have works better than any other setup I tried by far, and I tried both of the above.
One more video from the Meltdown Drags, shows the bars at work. I was in Super Stock class. All heads up. The car I was racing on that last pass was a 442 with Mondello heads and two four barrel carbs. That was a heads up start and the little Studebaker pulled away all the way down the track.
Richard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYOohXBjipE

Jerry Forrester
12-13-2014, 08:43 PM
Jerry,
Great choice for your car, you will be happy with this setup on a street driven car. The stock type or the caltrac wouldn’t work as well as this will.
I look forward to seeing how well you like them. I would use these on my street driven sometime drag Studebaker, but for my track car what I have works better than any other setup I tried by far, and I tried both of the above.
One more video from the Meltdown Drags, shows the bars at work. I was in Super Stock class. All heads up. The car I was racing on that last pass was a 442 with Mondello heads and two four barrel carbs. That was a heads up start and the little Studebaker pulled away all the way down the track.
Richard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYOohXBjipE

Great vid Richard.
I understand why you want to stay with the longer bars. They look like they're working perfect.
What are the Stude guys at the pure stock drags running as far as traction bars go?
Original Stude traction bars?
I notice when they leave the line the rear of the car actually lifts ala '50 Olds. By using a set-up that lifts the car during initial acceleration the rear axle is being pushed toward the pavement so therefore the traction bars are really improving traction and not just preventing wheel hop.

63larkr1
12-14-2014, 09:43 AM
Yes, as far as I know we all used the original bars or reproductions. Not all cars are setup the same, some have more front end lift. One thing to note, when installing them, do it with the weight of the car on the wheels not the differential hanging down. Maybe even the weight of the driver in the car, and position them without any preload. The stock bars and the rear end will have different arcs. That maybe what rips the front bar mounts off the frame. A few of us have had that happen. Avanti has a flatter spring so they work best.
The lift is as you say the wheel pushing down on the track, but the other side is pulling up away from the track. I have a set of original Studebaker adjustable shocks on my R1 that help the wheel stay down. Also a rear stabilizer bar can be preloaded to help some. I will pm you a video that shows the lift.
Richard

Jerry Forrester
12-14-2014, 01:28 PM
One thing to note, when installing them, do it with the weight of the car on the wheels not the differential hanging down. Maybe even the weight of the driver in the car, and position them without any preload. The stock bars and the rear end will have different arcs. That maybe what rips the front bar mounts off the frame. A few of us have had that happen.

Yes, that goes without saying. This aint my first rodeo. <G>
Hell, I'm 71 3/4 years old. My daddy was a dirt tracker and I was helping him wrench on his cars when I was 12. I must not have had much sence, cause I followed in his foot steps.
But still, good info for any nubies that might be lurking.

63larkr1
12-14-2014, 01:43 PM
Yes, that goes without saying. This aint my first rodeo. <G>
Hell, I'm 71 3/4 years old. My daddy was a dirt tracker and I was helping him wrench on his cars when I was 12. I must not have had much sence, cause I followed in his foot steps.
But still, good info for any nubies that might be lurking.

Well you never know who is reading this.
Richard