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View Full Version : I just got educated:-(



Hawklover
10-30-2014, 05:48 PM
Last year I installed a duel chamber master cylinder, replacing the single one.
I remember mentioning to the tech that at some point I would attempt to get my hill holder working again, as it had quit some yrs before.

While on the lift yesterday checking for gas leaks after the install of all new fuel line, I happened to see a tiny 1/4" brake line T......and it looked new........this piqued my curiosity and I started to look around the frame rails.........sure enough the idiot removed all the lines going into the hill holder and left it attached.

I never should have mentioned the thing in the first place, now I have no way of returning the pipes as they were.......ya just can't win for trying:-(

StudeRich
10-30-2014, 06:10 PM
I am misunderstanding something here. If you mentioned you wanted to hook up the H/H why would he disconnect all the lines?

And what does: "and left it attached" mean?

It is either connected to the system or not. Which?

The 3/16" Brake lines are cheap, the Licensed Repair Shop labor is NOT!

Warren Webb
10-30-2014, 08:13 PM
Challenge your tech to a "Duel" for disconnecting your hill holder when he installed you "Dual" master cylinder. (different spelling= different meaning)

Dick Steinkamp
10-30-2014, 08:26 PM
Tough crowd tonight. :(

DEEPNHOCK
10-30-2014, 08:30 PM
What year and model?
(Info like that is important on a tech question, as well as a good header)
Depending on your model Hill holder, it may be possible to work it back into the system.
Hill holders are awesome.


Last year I installed a duel chamber master cylinder, replacing the single one.
I remember mentioning to the tech that at some point I would attempt to get my hill holder working again, as it had quit some yrs before.

While on the lift yesterday checking for gas leaks after the install of all new fuel line, I happened to see a tiny 1/4" brake line T......and it looked new........this piqued my curiosity and I started to look around the frame rails.........sure enough the idiot removed all the lines going into the hill holder and left it attached.

I never should have mentioned the thing in the first place, now I have no way of returning the pipes as they were.......ya just can't win for trying:-(

Hawklover
10-30-2014, 09:18 PM
Rich, before I left the car at the shop, I had mentioned that some yrs before the hill holder had stopped working, and did not direct the shop to alter it or the lines in any way......so what does the tech do?......he removes all the brake lines going in and out of the hill holder, but leaves the actual hill holder body attached to the frame and the rod to the clutch. Yes brake line is cheap, but they did something I never requested!......and I do not have any pictures of what the brake lines look like:-( ........and the IDIOT did not protect my inner fender panels.....DOT 3 did a real job on my paint:-(
I am misunderstanding something here. If you mentioned you wanted to hook up the H/H why would he disconnect all the lines?

And what does: "and left it attached" mean?

It is either connected to the system or not. Which?

The 3/16" Brake lines are cheap, the Licensed Repair Shop labor is NOT!

Hawklover
10-30-2014, 09:21 PM
Warren, I still suffer the ill effects of a sixth grade education, but candidly have done well in life for a functional illiterate
Challenge your tech to a "Duel" for disconnecting your hill holder when he installed you "Dual" master cylinder. (different spelling= different meaning)

Hawklover
10-30-2014, 09:22 PM
Dick, we NYorkers live for the tough crowds:-)........bring it on:-)
Tough crowd tonight. :(

Hawklover
10-30-2014, 09:25 PM
Jeff, I agree!.....I loved not having to panic when the car was stopped on a hill, especially today as everyone hugs the rear bumper of ones car when stopped at a light! The car is a '64, HH used on Larks and Avantis.
What year and model?
(Info like that is important on a tech question, as well as a good header)
Depending on your model Hill holder, it may be possible to work it back into the system.
Hill holders are awesome.

rockne10
10-30-2014, 09:27 PM
Hill holders are awesome.
Dick, I share your awe, up to the point where I actually learned how to hold a standard on a hill and push off without slipping. I was totally frustrated with attempting to back down a hill with a hill-holder, trying to decide if I needed to clutch or brake.

Hawklover
10-30-2014, 09:34 PM
By "slipping" the clutch?
Dick, I share your awe, up to the point where I actually learned how to hold a standard on a hill and push off without slipping. I was totally frustrated with attempting to back down a hill, trying to decide if I needed to clutch or brake.

rockne10
10-30-2014, 10:50 PM
...Yep...!

karterfred88
10-30-2014, 10:50 PM
So what model are we talking about? After splitting the system to front and rear you'll have to decide which ones to use for the "Hill Holder" valve anyway-front or rear. You will need to make new lines and junctions anyway to splice it in, and now it can be removed and rebuilt while you car is still drivable. You may find it is not as effective as it was, as only one end of the car will keep the brakes locked. I loved mine on my 63 GT back in the day.

StudeRich
10-30-2014, 10:51 PM
Dick, I share your awe, up to the point where I actually learned how to hold a standard on a hill and push off without slipping. I was totally frustrated with attempting to back down a hill with a hill-holder, trying to decide if I needed to clutch or brake.

Actually, on a upgrade, backing down a hill, the Hill Holder will work to stop the car if you push the brake with the clutch down, once you figure that out. :rolleyes:

Hawklover
10-30-2014, 11:10 PM
Avanti......and at this point I am not going to go through the hassle, let the next owner do it, for now I just will have to learn to slip the clutch like a pro:-)
So what model are we talking about? After splitting the system to front and rear you'll have to decide which ones to use for the "Hill Holder" valve anyway-front or rear. You will need to make new lines and junctions anyway to splice it in, and now it can be removed and rebuilt while you car is still drivable. You may find it is not as effective as it was, as only one end of the car will keep the brakes locked. I loved mine on my 63 GT back in the day.

rockne10
10-30-2014, 11:14 PM
...the Hill Holder will work to stop the car if you push the brake with the clutch down, once you figure that out. :rolleyes:That's what I didn't like! You couldn't accelerate down a hill unless you engaged the clutch, and if you disengaged and braked you came to a full stop. Loved it while learning standard, became in the way anytime after.

karterfred88
10-31-2014, 12:48 AM
That's what I didn't like! You couldn't accelerate down a hill unless you engaged the clutch, and if you disengaged and braked you came to a full stop. Loved it while learning standard, became in the way anytime after.
At least it was a "learnable" trait. My 2013 Mustang has a computerized version, that holds the brakes on from a standstill if it detects a motion, forward or back, when the brake is released. Then holds them on. As you attempt to smoothly apply the clutch and apply the electronic fly-by-wire throttle very lightly, the engine will stall. You need to apply just enough throttle to over come the locked brakes and move the car enough so the sensors realize it's time to let go. No way to disable it--very annoying.

Hawklover
10-31-2014, 06:59 AM
As a side note........Studebaker did offer something they called "anti-creep" for cars with an auto trans.......when the car would come to a stop, one would not have to keep the foot on the brake from slightly "creeping" forward, I can look up the AC number if anyone is interested.
At least it was a "learnable" trait. My 2013 Mustang has a computerized version, that holds the brakes on from a standstill if it detects a motion, forward or back, when the brake is released. Then holds them on. As you attempt to smoothly apply the clutch and apply the electronic fly-by-wire throttle very lightly, the engine will stall. You need to apply just enough throttle to over come the locked brakes and move the car enough so the sensors realize it's time to let go. No way to disable it--very annoying.

junior
10-31-2014, 10:12 AM
well I`m thinking that the tech is not an idiot, and that there was a communication gap. By mentioning that the HH was not working to the tech and also saying that you were wanting to get it working again at some point the tech covered his ass by disconnecting the HH and leaving it place. If he willing and knowingly left a non-functioning part in a brake system he could be leaving himself open to being held responsible if you ever had a accident due to a brake system failure. You trusted the car to his professional judgement, and he more than likely did what he felt he had to do. Once again, clear communication between the two of you could have prevented the problem, just figure that calling him an idiot would not be completely accurate in this situation. Regards, junior

Hawklover
10-31-2014, 01:30 PM
Junior while I appreciate your honest thoughts on this matter, you would have to live here in metro NYC to understand how some folks think:-) The fellow never mentioned in the 14 days he kept the car that he would be removing all the HH lines, he should have left that decision up to me, after we both discussed it. I was also QUITE upset that he did not sufficiently protect all the inner fender area from DOT 3 fluid damage, and candidly I just do not have the time or the money to bring him to court over the paint damage. I will say one thing, I have owned this Avanti since 1966, and as such feel I know this car better than any man could, which includes men who claim after 30 yrs turning wrenches they know it all, the real problem is that my friend who owns the shop is away a great deal of the time as he tends to the vehicle fleet at a local college, so the shop is left to his 26 yr old son and a tech who knows hot rods and thinks they are the be all and end all of autos........and yes I will give the man his due, just don't cop an attitude that you know my car better than I do! OK Jr, I am off the soap box:-)
well I`m thinking that the tech is not an idiot, and that there was a communication gap. By mentioning that the HH was not working to the tech and also saying that you were wanting to get it working again at some point the tech covered his ass by disconnecting the HH and leaving it place. If he willing and knowingly left a non-functioning part in a brake system he could be leaving himself open to being held responsible if you ever had a accident due to a brake system failure. You trusted the car to his professional judgement, and he more than likely did what he felt he had to do. Once again, clear communication between the two of you could have prevented the problem, just figure that calling him an idiot would not be completely accurate in this situation. Regards, junior

junior
10-31-2014, 09:01 PM
Yes, bummer about the paint, I'd be pissed too, especially since owning the car such a long time. Sorry if you think I was coping an attitude about knowing your car better than you, I have no idea what made you think that, or perhaps you're were referring to the tech? I still think the tech was acting in what he thought you wanted and what he felt he had to do as a professional, and as stated before, communication was not crystal-clear between both parties. I have been 'burned' in similar circumstances with lack of communication and whenever I trust my car to other parties I now tend to ask questions and clarify until the other party is just about to the point of rolling their eyes at me, but that's okay because I want to know EXACTLY what I am getting for my money. regards, junior

Hawklover
11-01-2014, 09:21 AM
No Junior, not you!!..........the IDIOT who worked on the car!!.... maybe it is the way wrote, so I am sorry it sounded that way:-)
Yes, bummer about the paint, I'd be pissed too, especially since owning the car such a long time. Sorry if you think I was coping an attitude about knowing your car better than you, I have no idea what made you think that, or perhaps you're were referring to the tech? I still think the tech was acting in what he thought you wanted and what he felt he had to do as a professional, and as stated before, communication was not crystal-clear between both parties. I have been 'burned' in similar circumstances with lack of communication and whenever I trust my car to other parties I now tend to ask questions and clarify until the other party is just about to the point of rolling their eyes at me, but that's okay because I want to know EXACTLY what I am getting for my money. regards, junior