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Aussie Hawk
10-30-2014, 01:21 AM
The Vin Tag below was done for one of our customers. If you're are interested they are AUD$66.00 + postage. (to the USA approx AUD$5.00) This pic makes the stainless look dull.

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac311/Aussie_Hawk/img028_zpsc87fe1c2.jpg (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/Aussie_Hawk/media/img028_zpsc87fe1c2.jpg.html)

studegary
10-30-2014, 01:57 PM
They should be able to do them with an I for a 1 so that they are correct/authentic.

studelark
10-30-2014, 05:17 PM
Just asking- Would these be legal to use in the 50 States to register a vehicle for a title and to secure license plates?

Frank Drumheller
Locust Grove, VA
60S-W6
M16-52 '48 Boyer-bodied fire truck

SN-60
10-30-2014, 06:11 PM
They should be able to do them with an I for a 1 so that they are correct/authentic.

They probably use the '1' on purpose Gary, so as to differentiate them from Studebaker factory VIN tags.

StudeRich
10-30-2014, 06:17 PM
I think it is a good thing that they are made "out of Country", that way no Criminal charges or lawsuits are likely!

It should never be noticed here, just don't tell! But if the truth be known I am pretty sure it is ILLEGAL.

With the frame # and the Production Order, it could be proved to be legit, but who would buy that? Altered or modified is just that. :(

Jerry Forrester
10-30-2014, 07:15 PM
I think it is a good thing that they are made "out of Country", that way no Criminal charges or lawsuits are likely!

It should never be noticed here, just don't tell! But if the truth be known I am pretty sure it is ILLEGAL.

With the frame # and the Production Order, it could be proved to be legit, but who would buy that? Altered or modified is just that. :(

Yes, I too, think it would be illegal. But, if the 1 was changed to an I and it matched the number on the crossmember and the PO, I would not be afraid to use one. I would NEVER tell ANYONE it was a replacement plate though. Does that make me a bad guy?

StudeRich
10-30-2014, 07:20 PM
Yes, I too, think it would be illegal. But, if the 1 was changed to an I and it matched the number on the crossmember and the PO, I would not be afraid to use one. I would NEVER tell ANYONE it was a replacement plate though. Does that make me a bad guy?

NOPE, it does not make you a bad guy, but you and I would be in the same Jail Cell though!

stude dude
10-30-2014, 08:05 PM
They should be able to do them with an I for a 1 so that they are correct/authentic.

That was my fault Gary. The engraver was working from my poor handwriting!

The 'I' can certainly be done as per original plates.

Chris.

rodnutrandy
10-30-2014, 08:12 PM
I got a original Id plate and title for my Studebaker . Only had a bill of sale to begin with . Didn't want a builder's title. Here is where it gets interesting. Went to DMV and was told the serial number was no good. Said a motor home in Ohio had that serial number and no 2 vehicles can have same serial number . We added a M5 to my serial number . I had to make a new Id plate to show the info. Than everyone was happy .

Swifster
10-30-2014, 10:07 PM
These would not be illegal...IF

These are going on the same car that matches that number. If I bought one for my Daytona and used the serial number that is matched to the car, the Feds don't care. There are legitimate business that do produce real VIN tags for that purpose. And these businesses require documentation.

These would be illegal...IF

These went on a car to make it something it's not. To deceive someone into buying car (misrepresentation). Making a car something it's not.

alaipairod
10-30-2014, 10:12 PM
I have a source that made me the upper portion logo in a decal.
It applied to my original vin tag after polishing....Looks great......

bezhawk
10-30-2014, 10:23 PM
I have made them before. Had one destroyed by the sand blasters, and made an exact copy and replaced it. I do not see anything wrong with replacing a damaged number plate with a new one with the same numbers. It's called restoration.

CJMiller
10-30-2014, 10:30 PM
I have a source that made me the upper portion logo in a decal.
It applied to my original vin tag after polishing....Looks great......

You should have him make a couple dozen. I would definitely get one from you.

SN-60
10-30-2014, 11:29 PM
This is an extremely bad idea. As well meaning as some 'restorers' are, duplicated vehicle identification plates can only lead to legal problems down the line. On a Studebaker, if the original spot welded stainless steel serial number plate is missing from that cars "A" pillar.....beware of imitations!;)

Swifster
10-30-2014, 11:40 PM
This is an extremely bad idea. As well meaning as some 'restorers' are, duplicated vehicle identification plates can only lead to legal problems down the line. On a Studebaker, if the original spot welded stainless steel serial number plate is missing from that cars "A" pillar.....beware of imitations!;)

Misrepresentations are illegal and cause problems. Again, there are companies that make these for GM, Ford and Chrysler products. Nothing wrong if the numbers match...

Lets face facts...The only two cars worth the big bucks are genuine R3 cars (all known and documented) and really nice Golden Hawks. How much motivation is there to 'clone' an V8 Lark? Part of the charm with these cars is they are not worth Corvette or Shelby dollars.

Aussie Hawk
10-30-2014, 11:44 PM
You should have him make a couple dozen. I would definitely get one from you.

We also have the decals in stock.

Regarding the legality of the repro plates, it's up the individual's intention to either replace a damaged or missing tag, or use it to misrepresent the true identiy of a car. No different from some Stude enthusiasts cannabalising the parts from a rare car and cloning another using the tags from the first.

Swifster
10-30-2014, 11:56 PM
We also have the decals in stock.

Regarding the legality of the repro plates, it's up the individual's intention to either replace a damaged or missing tag, or use it to misrepresent the true identiy of a car. No different from some Stude enthusiasts cannabalising the parts from a rare car and cloning another using the tags from the first.

Matt, there are complete body shells that can be 'serviced'. From British Motor Heritage to Dynacorn, new shells are out there. They are just another 'service' part. Even some new OEM cars have a shell as a service part in case the car is rolled up into a ball. A used shell is just another 'service' part in the restoration of a car.

WayneXG95
10-31-2014, 12:20 AM
Mine looks like this from my 62 Hawk, dosen't have Studebaker Packard on it.

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a405/WayneXG95/10347781_664876176943321_5373816131562476395_n_zpsa9977c2e.jpg (http://s1032.photobucket.com/user/WayneXG95/media/10347781_664876176943321_5373816131562476395_n_zpsa9977c2e.jpg.html)

The number font is different, are they all like that?

StudeRich
10-31-2014, 02:47 AM
As you can see this Serial Number Plate has had it's welds cut off, so no way to tell if it is for the same Car unless you can read the Frame Number on the rear crossmember.

I do not know everything about exports, but those other numbers at the bottom do not belong there, it may have been licensed using that different number rather than the correct Serial Number.

This COULD have been shipped as a Knocked Down Car assembled in Australia?

stude dude
10-31-2014, 03:29 AM
Its a South Bend built car for export.

Thanks to those who have placed orders. Your cars are going to look just a little nicer next time they roll onto the show field!

Chris.

Hallabutt
10-31-2014, 07:06 AM
Reproduction vin tags have been available for Pre War cars for many years. The reproductions have been used as a normal part of many concourse restorations. Some abuses have always been a part of the process, including the sale of out of state titles, but I doubt that will have a significant negative effect. They give the restorer an additional opportunity to upgrade his car.

In the day many of the states, including the state of Washington, used the engine number for the purposes of registration. Years later engine swaps caused obvious problems when someone brought a car in from out of state, and an inspection was still required to get the car registered. Washington was referred to a "guaranteed title state." As we know the ID plate, of which we are speaking, was never called a VIN, or uniformly used to identify older cars. The state of Washington, as well as some other states, took it upon themselves to inspect and certify that cars brought into the state were done so, legally. After inspection the State Patrol would, arbitrarily, choose some number on the car to record the car for registration, even if it was not the original VIN or ID. This happened to me when I bought a 1976 Jaguar in California and registered it in Washington in 1994. If there was no number that the SP deemed appropriate they would affix their own tag and number. The craziest thing that I ever heard of regarding this process, was when a good friend bought an all original 1921 Studebaker Big Six touring in Wisconsin and tried to register it in Washington. He took it to one inspection station where the SP wanted to remove the original ID tag from the frame, where it had been affixed been affixed for eighty years, so that they could affix their own tag! To the owners credit he refused to allow them remove the plate and left. He later took the car to another inspection station where he had no trouble registering it with the original ID plate. Thankfully these inspection stations have been closed for years. My guess is that the bean counters figured out that payback was not worth the expenditure, but it probably also meant that the process really solved few problems, anyway.

alaipairod
10-31-2014, 01:12 PM
You should have him make a couple dozen. I would definitely get one from you.

PM me for more info.......

SScopelli
10-31-2014, 01:31 PM
Mine looks like this from my 62 Hawk, dosen't have Studebaker Packard on it.

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a405/WayneXG95/10347781_664876176943321_5373816131562476395_n_zpsa9977c2e.jpg (http://s1032.photobucket.com/user/WayneXG95/media/10347781_664876176943321_5373816131562476395_n_zpsa9977c2e.jpg.html)

The number font is different, are they all like that?

The first 3 digits are different from the remaining VIN. Seems the right side of the VIN portion use Alpha charters for 0=O 1=I, 6=b, 9=upside down b
Also note 1, 2, and 3 are all different in the left side of the VIN portion form the right side.

It would be better to get the correct character set and spacing if doing reproductions.

I just did a repo VIN for my Ford.. I just had to send in a copy of the title and a picture of the original.. It use to be on the 50's Fords they would change the color and trim, but now they will not do it.. It has to match exact.. You cant change the engine because they used that in the VIN. Color and trim were elsewhere on the VIN Tag.


If your engraver can get the correct font going, might generate more interest.

38861
38862
38863

swvalcon
10-31-2014, 01:35 PM
Those are nice vin. plates. As far as being illegal hasn't anyone heard it's only illegal if you get caught.

Aussie Hawk
10-31-2014, 06:12 PM
All this talk of the repro vin tags being illegal has made Chris and I decide to destroy our stock of them and hand ourselves into the police. What were we thinking !

SN-60
10-31-2014, 06:28 PM
All this talk of the repro vin tags being illegal has made Chris and I decide to destroy our stock of them and hand ourselves into the police. What were we thinking !

Cheer up!....With good behavior, you'll probably be out in a year or two!:lol:

Corvanti
10-31-2014, 06:32 PM
Ed, would these be considered "Tribute VIN (serial) Tags"? :ohmy::lol::woot: I'm joking!!!

Stu Chapman
10-31-2014, 09:16 PM
The Vin Tag below was done for one of our customers. If you're are interested they are AUD$66.00 + postage. (to the USA approx AUD$5.00) This pic makes the stainless look dull.

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac311/Aussie_Hawk/img028_zpsc87fe1c2.jpg (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/Aussie_Hawk/media/img028_zpsc87fe1c2.jpg.html)

I'm not qualified to discuss the legal issues but if you ahead with the project make sure the font matches the original. It doesn't right now.

Stu Chapman

stude dude
11-01-2014, 04:58 AM
Stu, the font is actually very close when compared to an original plate, but the spacing and positioning is a bit out on this one. We have since switched to a different engraver and can get the numerals near perfect.

For those who are concerned about doing prison time....you can buy just the decals from us for $12.

Chris.

capwombat
11-01-2014, 08:40 AM
Hopefully this is still considered on-thread... See the photos. I still have my original spot-welded "VIN tag" in place, but there is no cowl tag on the car. And when I ordered the build sheet, it also does not indicate the number of the cowl tag. Did any vehicles leave the plant w/o any cowl tag? I'd always assumed it was just removed and misplaced when the previous owner had the car painted red in the 1990s, but when I tracked him down, he told me he did not believe the car ever had a cowl tag.

38880 38883

SN-60
11-01-2014, 09:19 AM
Hopefully this is still considered on-thread... See the photos. I still have my original spot-welded "VIN tag" in place, but there is no cowl tag on the car. And when I ordered the build sheet, it also does not indicate the number of the cowl tag. Did any vehicles leave the plant w/o any cowl tag? I'd always assumed it was just removed and misplaced when the previous owner had the car painted red in the 1990s, but when I tracked him down, he told me he did not believe the car ever had a cowl tag.

38880 38883

That's very unusual. Are there two 'factory drilled' 1/8" holes on the cowl where the tag would normally be located?

BobPalma
11-01-2014, 09:45 AM
Hopefully this is still considered on-thread... See the photos. I still have my original spot-welded "VIN tag" in place, but there is no cowl tag on the car. And when I ordered the build sheet, it also does not indicate the number of the cowl tag. Did any vehicles leave the plant w/o any cowl tag? I'd always assumed it was just removed and misplaced when the previous owner had the car painted red in the 1990s, but when I tracked him down, he told me he did not believe the car ever had a cowl tag.

38880 38883

:) John, I am certain the car would have had a cowl tag when it left South Bend. As was suggested, look on the cowl where the tag should be located and see if there are two holes about where the tag would have been mounted. If not, look even more closely to see if they have been filled it when the car was repainted and the color changed. I'll bet they were.

The cowl tag is not a legal identifier, so there is no need to be concerned about yours not being in place.

The top line of the tag would have read 59V C6.

Right below that would have been the sequential Body Number. Given your car's build date, it was probably a 4-digit number. Since the body number was not recorded on the Production Order, further research at the museum (the Shippers Copy, for example) might turn up the body number.

The worst case scenario would have to be to research all the 1959 V8 production orders for several hundred numbers on either side of your car's Serial Number (since most would be Larks at that point), to see what Hawk body number is missing, and then assume that number would have been your car. However, that would require a lot of time and is not something the Museum staff could do for free.

Unless it is of grave concern to you, I wouldn't worry about it....and I'm a pretty big "numbers" guy. ;) :cool: BP

2R2
11-01-2014, 09:16 PM
Keep in mind there are different sizes of the actual metal plates too. For example, a plate off a 1960 Lark is a different size than one off a 1963 Lark.

capwombat
11-02-2014, 12:11 AM
:) John, I am certain the car would have had a cowl tag when it left South Bend. As was suggested, look on the cowl where the tag should be located and see if there are two holes about where the tag would have been mounted. If not, look even more closely to see if they have been filled it when the car was repainted and the color changed. I'll bet they were.

The cowl tag is not a legal identifier, so there is no need to be concerned about yours not being in place.

The top line of the tag would have read 59V C6.

Right below that would have been the sequential Body Number. Given your car's build date, it was probably a 4-digit number. Since the body number was not recorded on the Production Order, further research at the museum (the Shippers Copy, for example) might turn up the body number.

The worst case scenario would have to be to research all the 1959 V8 production orders for several hundred numbers on either side of your car's Serial Number (since most would be Larks at that point), to see what Hawk body number is missing, and then assume that number would have been your car. However, that would require a lot of time and is not something the Museum staff could do for free.

Unless it is of grave concern to you, I wouldn't worry about it....and I'm a pretty big "numbers" guy. ;) :cool: BP

Thanks, Bob & SN-60 for the quick replies. I'm not too worried about it as the car is not truly original (I've got a supercharged R3 clone engine in it and a 700R4 transmission); I was just intrigued by the build sheet. I will do some more research in the next few months and see what else I can find out.

stude dude
11-03-2014, 03:20 AM
Keep in mind there are different sizes of the actual metal plates too. For example, a plate off a 1960 Lark is a different size than one off a 1963 Lark.

Are you sure about that? Right now I am looking at original plates from 1953 to 1966 models and they all appear to be the same, including Packards and Avantis.

Chris.

55 56 PREZ 4D
11-03-2014, 03:52 AM
Not too long ago there was a thread about the black serial number logos.
The logos shown differed over the years, I don't think the metal plate size was discussed.
Were replacement metal tags with logo available from the factory ?
Not long ago a discussion about body panels noted that not ALL body panels were listed in catalogs but WERE available by contacting the factory.
Did this include the serial number tags ?
The chassis catalog for 55 to 58 has the rear frame crossmember [illustration #1501-15, MEMBER, gas tank cross] available.
Were these shipped with the serial number stamped from the factory or was the serial number stamped upon installation ?

stude dude
11-03-2014, 05:31 AM
We have serial number plate decals for the 1954-62 models (Studebaker-Packard), 1962-64 Models (Studebaker Corporation) and Canadian production (Studebaker of Canada).

Chris.

2R2
11-03-2014, 11:01 AM
Are you sure about that? Right now I am looking at original plates from 1953 to 1966 models and they all appear to be the same, including Packards and Avantis.

Chris.

Chris, yes, I am sure, at least during the Lark era. See attached photo.
38980

You can see plates for the '60 & '62, during the Studebaker Packard era, are larger than those for later Larks (and I assume Hawks and Avanti's too). No idea about plates from the '50s.

go-studebaker
11-04-2014, 03:57 PM
Hi Chris and Matt,
good work.

Have you ever seen how many great restorations are spoilt buy some bozo who has run the disc sander over the serial number or ripped the old one off and scewed it back into position with that last 50 years of damage showing.

Say hi to your dad for me Chris. I really enjoyed catching up with him and his wife when we passed by in August.

Regards
Greg

SN-60
11-13-2014, 07:11 PM
Ed, would these be considered "Tribute VIN (serial) Tags"? :ohmy::lol::woot: I'm joking!!!

Funny!!!!!!!! Actually, in this case, "Tribute" serial tags would be a better name choice than, say, "Clone" serial tags. Clone, by definition, is an absolutely perfect copy of the original item, be it a Studebaker serial number plate or an R4 engine. And, as far as I know, no one has ever accomplished that feat!;)

stude dude
12-01-2014, 08:38 PM
Just a quick update for everyone who has inquired about the serial number blank plates and decals.........

We have run out of the STUDEBAKER-PACKARD and STUDEBAKER CORPORATION style decals. We had some difficulty getting in touch with the manufacturer, but have since made contact and more decals are being made now.

Regarding the plates, we have plenty of blank plates ready to post. We are not really promoting an engraving service as we cannot guarantee the results will be factory perfect (as pointed out above), however we are happy to engrave a customers plate to the best level of accuracy we can achieve.

We are also experimenting with a different type of engraving process that will make a deeper cut in the stainless and should also follow the factory lettering style more closely. The down side is that it costs about four times as much!

Chris.

stude dude
12-04-2014, 10:11 PM
39712

Here's one we just did on a scrap piece of stainless. Its pretty close in size and position. Now....for those uniquely styled numbers and letters, we can manually copy them from a sample (old plate or photo). It's not that hard to get right, just takes time and money!

Chris.

Paul K.
01-04-2015, 01:00 AM
Just curious: Do some states recognize the roman numeral I in our VIN tags as the number "1" and other states as the letter "I"?

Here in CA, my title shows the letter "I".

Warren Webb
01-04-2015, 01:29 AM
It depends on the mentality of the DMV clerk.

8E45E
01-04-2015, 01:35 AM
It depends on the mentality of the DMV clerk.

Similar story of used Plymouths in the classified ads in local paper where I lived at one time when there was a Fury I, II, and III. I have seem them listed as Fury 1, Fury 2, and Fury 3.

Craig

hausdok
01-04-2015, 02:40 AM
Matt & Chris,

I think they look great. They should probably be distressed a little before installing. One would want to drill a hole top and bottom at the appropriate spot weld locations so that they could be tacked in place. A little dressing with a burr and then some polishing and they'd look exactly like the original spot-welded-in-place tags. As for the one on the blue car in the photos above, it sure looks like that tag originally did have the black background script at the top. It's very faint but one can see it there. I suspect someone used a chemical stripper or an acid dip that took the original paint off. I thought that when a car is imported to Australia your motor vehicle department gives them new registration numbers. Are those numbers on the bottom of the tag perhaps issued by the authorities?

stude dude
01-04-2015, 03:54 AM
The blue car was imported and sold here new in 1962, long before the compliancing laws existed. And I think you are right about the black label being stripped or sanded off at some time during previous repaints.

There is some missinformation out there about how plates were attached to the body, many were NOT spot welded on but attached with screws. That's why all of these plates have the little notches at the side, and why the door pillars are pre-drilled. Spot welding seems to have been popular on South Bend built passenger cars but Canada and foriegn assembly, plus truck production often used screws.

Chris.

Swifster
01-04-2015, 08:57 AM
The Michigan Secretary of State originally issued me a title that was with the 'I' vs a '1'. I had the build. Sheet and took that in and they changed it.

SN-60
01-04-2015, 10:03 AM
Buyer Beware!:whome:

stude dude
01-22-2015, 04:14 AM
40616

This is the latest version of our engraving experiments. The plate is actually slightly polished but appears flat in this photo.

We can also do the lettering to exactly match the unique Studebaker characters if required but it will cost about $40 extra over the standard supply/engrave price.

Also, we now have all 3 types of serial number plate decals back in stock. Thank you to the many of you who have placed orders for decals, plates or engraving. We are now ready to supply!

Chris.

Quentin
01-22-2015, 04:45 AM
Just on cowl tags...my 63 Hawk (CKD local assembly) has no cowl tag, or evidence that it ever did (holes, paint discolouration); given the distinctly Aussie flavour (correct spelling) of this thread I am wondering if the lack of a cowl tag was perhaps more common down under??
PS - if I found a correct cowl blank, I would have no hesitation in cloning a tag with the correct info - Chris ,do you have one?

stude dude
01-22-2015, 05:01 AM
No Australian assembled cars used the US type body tags. In late 1963 Continental & General (the later assembler) started attaching a brass plate to the firewall that displayed the chassis number, but there was never a body number attached to Australian cars.

Chris.

Rapps
11-07-2018, 01:39 AM
G'day Chris I would like to order one please
Regards Lindsay

StudeRich
11-07-2018, 03:07 AM
G'day Chris I would like to order one please
Regards Lindsay

Lindsay; you can click on a member's Name (Handle) and get to a Private Message option to send Private Messages like this.

That way, the recipient will be notified that He or She has a Message.

tsenecal
11-07-2018, 10:42 AM
I am curious about the example in post #42. The original tag has a different 6, for the 60V, and the 6 in the following serial number sequence. I guess that must have been the way that they were done? The example on the scrap stainless has both 6's with curved tops.

jnormanh
11-07-2018, 05:23 PM
NOPE, it does not make you a bad guy, but you and I would be in the same Jail Cell though!

I think that's nonsense..Assuming you have a matching number valid title, no legal authority, DMV, police, etc are going to care if the plate is factory original or a repro. Or even whether it looks original

AFAIK, there is nothing, anywhere, in any law which says you cannot replace a missing/damaged ID plate assuming you are using the correct serial number for that car. And every car I know of has "secret" numbers stamped somewhere on the body or frame. If the two numbers match, nobody is going to think you have violated any law.

StudeRich
11-07-2018, 06:12 PM
Really? from 10/30/2014? This is a bit out of context without all the back and forth that was going on back then. :(

I THINK I was trying to relate the replacement Serial Number Plates issue to my personal experience where the Calif. CHP "Powers to be", DID care that my Plate LOOKED: Replaced/Modified//Altered/Not Original. :eek:

The Factory welded mine VERY crooked, missed the Alignment Holes by a lot and burned the welds making it look suspicious enough to have the Car impounded, charge for Towing, an "Inspection", removal of the Draw-Tite Trailer Hitch etc. to brush the frame and check the "Secret Serial Number" which of course was found to be correct.

When I showed up in Barstow with: the Production Order, the Title, prior Calif. stack of Registration Cards IN MY Name, matching the Serial etc. they said: Sorry, just PAY UP! :mad:

Of course I agree that that it would be extremely RARE for this to happen, and there WERE extenuating circumstances that led up to it, with a person I let drive the car with an outstanding Non-Felony Warrant I was unaware of, BUT the fact is, IT HAPPENED!
This shows the intent of State Authorities IF it does happen! :(

jnormanh
11-07-2018, 07:09 PM
Really? from 10/30/2014?

I just noticed this thread today because it got bumped up. Nonetheless neither you nor anyone you know has ever been in a jail cell because of a correctly numbered ID plate which looked non-stock.

Maybe you were engaged in harmless hyperbole.

studegary
11-07-2018, 09:17 PM
I am curious about the example in post #42. The original tag has a different 6, for the 60V, and the 6 in the following serial number sequence. I guess that must have been the way that they were done? The example on the scrap stainless has both 6's with curved tops.

Yes, the two 6s should be different (the one with the year and the one in the consecutive S/N).