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sals54
10-26-2014, 10:18 PM
63 Riviera 56 Lincoln 53 Studebaker 75 Seville 56 Chrysler 300

Sdude
10-26-2014, 10:22 PM
OK, but not necessarily in that order.

63t-cab
10-26-2014, 10:33 PM
I wood go with 4 out of 5.

kurtruk
10-26-2014, 10:56 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2014/10/24/5-most-elegant-american-cars/

sweetolbob
10-27-2014, 09:57 AM
1975 Seville, MEH!!!

http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2013/04/23/12/41/1975_cadillac_seville-pic-1183842941434570933.jpeg

Try this one in it's place or it's 4-door brother, the Eldorado Brougham.

http://luxedb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/1958-Cadillac-Eldorado-Biarritz-Convertible-2.jpg

Bob

EssexExport
10-27-2014, 10:01 AM
Not bad considering how many times so-called car writers get it all wrong.

handworn
10-27-2014, 10:17 AM
And they called that Starliner a Starlight. But, oh well, at least they had the taste to include it.

JBOYLE
10-27-2014, 10:27 AM
Please note that to the writer, elegant is different from "Flashy"...which is why no finned monsters of the 50s-60s are included.

The idea is to be understated....something many U.S. car firms (yes, GM, I'm looking at you) have had trouble with.
And sometimes they still do. Compare a new Corvette to a new Ferrari. Count the vents (which contrast from body color). The new Corvette makes an international joke about American styling and tastes.
The 75 Seville was a nice car and was one of the few Cadillacs to be genuinely admired in Europe.

And Fox haters please note: the story is from Hagerty insurance.

Deaf Mute
10-27-2014, 10:34 AM
I would have placed the Avanti above the Cadillac Seville....... but what do I know...;)

Commander Eddie
10-27-2014, 10:42 AM
I note the Studebaker is the oldest car in that group.

JBOYLE
10-27-2014, 11:24 AM
I would have put the Avanti in place of either the Saville or the 53 (ducking for cover).

sweetolbob
10-27-2014, 04:04 PM
It's pretty obvious my view of ELEGANT differs from Fox and Hagerty. I'd like to see those cars put in order of "Elegance" by a vote, something tells me the Seville would finish sixth out of the five.

My thoughts remain - MEH!!! on the Seville. :eek::D

Scott
10-27-2014, 04:12 PM
If you count the 1954 same as 1953 my father owns two on this list (the other being a beautiful 1956 Lincoln).
When I was a kid we had a 1976(?) Seville. I always liked the style,. but the build quality was POOR. The door panels were coming off and it was less than a few years old. I don't remember much else.

BobPalma
10-27-2014, 04:28 PM
When I was a kid we had a 1976(?) Seville. I always liked the style, but the build quality was POOR. The door panels were coming off and it was less than a few years old. I don't remember much else.

:o Don't you remember when it quit running, Scott, as they were prone to do with that early fuel injection? <GGG> ;) :cool: BP

Scott
10-27-2014, 04:52 PM
:o Don't you remember when it quit running, Scott, as they were prone to do with that early fuel injection? <GGG> ;) :cool: BP

I guess I'd have to ask my dad about that one, Bob. It was by no means the worst car we owned in the 1970s (a Ford LTD wagon and a 1965 Mustang convertible with a gas leak come to mind).

dictator27
10-27-2014, 06:33 PM
Regardless of the source, I have no problem with four of them. The odd one out is the Seville. It is very typical of the 70's styling wise (part of the problem?). To be honest, I don't really mind the styling, but for a company with the slogan "Standard of the World" construction quality left something to be desired.

Terry

8E45E
10-27-2014, 06:46 PM
Regardless of the source, I have no problem with four of them. The odd one out is the Seville. It is very typical of the 70's styling wise (part of the problem?). To be honest, I don't really mind the styling, but for a company with the slogan "Standard of the World" construction quality left something to be desired.

Absolutely NO comparison to a 1966 Fleetwood, what I would call Cadillac's last stab at being 'Standard of the World'. By 1975, acres of plastic substituted for the real wood interior trim the '66 Fleetwood had in abundance, and in the seventies, GM's interest diverted to volume over quality and exclusivity much to Cadillac's fall from grace.

Craig

qsanford
10-27-2014, 07:21 PM
I would cast a vote for the 1966 Imperial LeBaron for another elegant automobile.

rockne10
10-27-2014, 07:36 PM
I would cast a vote for the 1966 Imperial LeBaron for another elegant automobile.Absolutely, Quentin! I know this one is the Ghia limo from '64 but, even the dealer sales model was leap years ahead of the Seville in style and elegance. 38765That Seville was little more than a Caprice in Cimmaron guise.

8E45E
10-27-2014, 07:37 PM
That Seville was little more than a Caprice in Cimmaron guise.

It wasn't even a Caprice! It was based on the Nova.

Craig

8E45E
10-27-2014, 07:44 PM
I would cast a vote for the 1966 Imperial LeBaron for another elegant automobile.

The Imperials in those years no longer looked like an upmarket Chrysler and were very well trimmed throughout. http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?67755-Orphan-of-the-Day-12-21-1965-Imperial-Crown-Coupe&highlight=imperial It should have sold much better than it did because of that. Economies of scale must have forced Imperial to revert to a Chrysler body again in 1967.

Craig

qsanford
10-27-2014, 08:09 PM
It wasn't even a Caprice! It was based on the Nova.

Craig

They were the NOVAS- N for Nova, O for Omega, V for Ventura, A for Apollo and S for Seville! At least that was how I kept track of them.<G>

8E45E
10-27-2014, 09:35 PM
The correct spelling is Cadillac Cimarron--one "M". Doubt the poster ever drove one before he made his cutesy crack, but at least it isn't a political rant this time.

My question is, WHO would want to?

Craig

BobPalma
10-28-2014, 06:47 AM
:o Back to the Nova-based Seville discussion:

Did anyone else notice the paint problems they had with those cars?

I remember shopping those cars when the owner of the dealership for whom I bought cars wanted one for his father. At least around here (middle of Indiana), the paint seemed to be falling off those Nova-based Sevilles earlier than most other GM cars of the time. The paint film was so fragile and weak they seemed to have more scabs of surface rust (not rust-through, but surface rust gone wild) when a rock chip or something had broken the paint film. :( :cool: BP

8E45E
10-28-2014, 06:58 AM
Did anyone else notice the paint problems they had with those cars?

Was the Seville GM's first attempt at a base-clearcoat finish? I do know paint problems plagued GM all through the 80's and 90's, especially their metallic finishes.

Craig

warrlaw1
10-28-2014, 08:17 AM
Craig nailed it on the Seville. In 75 I worked for a broadcasting corp and the president leased a new Seville. I remarked that it looked like a pregnant Nova and he would have fired me on the spot but my sales numbers paid for his lease :)

BobPalma
10-28-2014, 08:21 AM
Was the Seville GM's first attempt at a base-clearcoat finish? I do know paint problems plagued GM all through the 80's and 90's, especially their metallic finishes. Craig

Either that, Craig, and/or it had to do with so many of them being the high-metallic Firemist colors. The more metallic flakes in the paint, the more they reflect sunlight internally and bake the rest of the paint material, degrading it and causing early problems.

'Prolly a combination of "all the above." ;) :cool: BP

qsanford
10-28-2014, 11:12 AM
Back in the 70s our 4H club used to take trips to the National Horse Show at Madison Square Garden in New York City. On one trip there was a special Seville on display in the lobby. I think it was a Gucci Special Edition and it had a complete set of luggage and a vinyl top to match, done in the Gucci Signature logo design. All us little 4Hers were very impressed! <G>

showbizkid
10-28-2014, 11:29 AM
I have purged this thread of all political content. I expect it to stay that way.

BobPalma
10-28-2014, 11:31 AM
We are getting pretty far afield from Studebaker, but have to tell you that I am a bit bothered by the not very well informed Seville bashing on this thread. Cadillac put enormous time and resources into developing that world class (for its' time) automobile. Would commend to the readers Maurice D Hendry's "Cadillac Standard of the World The Complete History", where he devotes almost a full chapter to the Seville design and development process. Do dismiss the car as "Nova based" is basically is like deriding the Avanti as "Lark based", even though the latter statement would be far closer to the fact. Again fact, not opinion.

:o Well, Brad; I haven't said anything about being "Nova-based," nor anything about their good intentions while designing it, which may have indeed been honorable.

My remarks were leveled at how well I thought they didn't hold up out here in the Midwest, at least, with the paint film integrity and issues with the early fuel injection system. I will contend that they had more problems in a shorter period of time than comparable Cadillacs of the era, which is not to discount their efforts in designing the car.

Another design flaw that caught up with them too early was retaining the rear leaf springs of the "Nova" cars. Those springs were just terrible as to durability on all those cars; Nova / Omega / Phoenix / Apollo, etc., in addition to Sevilles.

'Don't know what it was about them, but as a used car dealer, you had to be leery about approaching one of those cars that was low in the rear, especially to one side. Chances were pretty good you were gonna get stuck putting a pair of leaf springs under it if you bought it because one or more leaves was/were broken...and there was no sense checking the junk yards; most 'all of them were broken on junked cars, too.

Overall, I'd say there was a little more "breakdown" between design and execution on those cars, but they did ride nice when they were "right." :D ;) :cool: BP

P.S. Or, under the heading of faint praise, could we agree that the Seville was a far better Nova than the Cimarron was a Cavalier? :!!:

rodnutrandy
10-28-2014, 11:43 AM
I believe the 57 Chevy belongs in the top 5 .

BobPalma
10-28-2014, 12:01 PM
I believe the 57 Chevy belongs in the top 5.

:eek: Gulp.

Randy, you do realize we are talking the Top 5 in Elegance, here? :QQ: :whome: <GGG>

But that's not to say the 1957 Chevrolet doesn't deserve credit for being in the right place in the right time. I think I did a pretty good job explaining the 1957 Chevrolet's unusual popularity and 1950s icon status in the first column I ever wrote for Hemmings Classic Car; December 2011:

http://www.hemmings.com/hcc/stories/2011/12/01/hmn_opinion4.html

;) :cool: BP

warrlaw1
10-28-2014, 12:40 PM
In the 50s we started watching a lot of television. Disney characters always had wonderful smiles and welcoming eyes. I'm sure that didn't escape the designers at GM. The 5,6,7 Chevies had that same smile-like quality. They liked us! '57 Studes were likeable, too. Likeable, but not "elegant". Seems Ford was getting there in 5,6,7 but Chrylser didn't seem to care. Subliminal messaging in industrial design. Go figure.

Commander Eddie
10-28-2014, 12:43 PM
I am just amazed at the amount of conversation this has generated. I wonder what this says about individual preferences, taste, and aesthetic sensibilities. We all see these things through eyes and minds molded by our individual experience. Very interesting.

studegary
10-28-2014, 01:12 PM
:o
Another design flaw that caught up with them too early was retaining the rear leaf springs of the "Nova" cars. Those springs were just terrible as to durability on all those cars; Nova / Omega / Phoenix / Apollo, etc., in addition to Sevilles.


:

The Pontiac version of the rear wheel drive Nova was the Ventura. The Phoenix was the later front wheel drive Pontiac compact car.

8E45E
10-28-2014, 01:21 PM
The Pontiac version of the rear wheel drive Nova was the Ventura. The Phoenix was the later front wheel drive Pontiac compact car.

It was called the Ventura II initially when it came out in mid-1971. The Phoenix came out in 1977 as an upscale Ventura II, and the 'Ventura' name was dropped when those FWD cars came out in mid-1979.

Craig

studegary
10-28-2014, 01:50 PM
It was called the Ventura II initially when it came out in mid-1971. The Phoenix came out in 1977 as an upscale Ventura II, and the 'Ventura' name was dropped when those FWD cars came out in mid-1979.

Craig

IIRC, the Ventura II name was only used for 1971 and 1972. The Phoenix came out in 1977. There was also a 1977 Ventura.

To me, the series model names were easy to remember as coming from the letters in Nova - N for Nova, O for Omega, V for Ventura and A for Apollo (NOVA).

8E45E
10-28-2014, 01:50 PM
:eek: Gulp.

Randy, you do realize we are talking the Top 5 in Elegance, here?

Funny no one mentioned the '53 in this thread: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?57663-Most-elegant-Studebaker&highlight=sumptuous

Craig

8E45E
10-28-2014, 01:59 PM
IIRC, the Ventura II name was only used for 1971 and 1972. The Phoenix came out in 1977. There was also a 1977 Ventura.

To me, the series model names were esay to remember as coming from the letters in Nova - N for Nova, O for Omega, V for Ventura and A for Apollo (NOVA).

Do you remember what the 'upscale' (rwd) Nova was called for 1979?

Craig

qsanford
10-28-2014, 02:09 PM
Was it the Concours?

studegary
10-28-2014, 02:49 PM
Do you remember what the 'upscale' (rwd) Nova was called for 1979?

Craig

I believe that it was the Nova Custom for 1978-1979 (formally the Concours for 1976-1977).

Okay, what was the top Nova model for 1988 (I owned one)?

plee4139
10-28-2014, 03:00 PM
That design was strictly out of the GM parts bin, and was the least attractive of the other makes. My problem is their overexposure in any old car-related ad, flyer, or other publicity. They have become a cliché; overexposed, shopworn and, at this point, quite tiresome.

plee4139
10-28-2014, 03:05 PM
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q26/clarknovak/cop_stop.jpg

Mr. Lee, I have edited your post.

What did I just say (http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?84806-Fox-News-5-Most-Elegant-Cars&p=879016&viewfull=1#post879016) about politics on this Forum?

Next person to inject political commentary of any kind gets kicked off for 1 week.

Last warning.

-- Clark (Showbizkid) Novak

warrlaw1
10-28-2014, 03:27 PM
We had different names in Canada for that series of cars, too. Nova was generic, except in Mexico where it meant "won't go". You guys never got to ride in a Parisienne or a Laurentian.

BobPalma
10-28-2014, 04:02 PM
We had different names in Canada for that series of cars, too. Nova was generic, except in Mexico where it meant "won't go". You guys never got to ride in a Parisienne or a Laurentian.

Actually, Dave; we got to ride in quite a few Parisiennes. That was the name Pontiac gave the big, full-size RWD cars here in the 'states for that last several years Pontiac marketed a full-size car here; roughly 1984-1987, IIRC. (Like Chevrolet Caprices, etc.) ;) :cool: BP

8E45E
10-28-2014, 05:19 PM
Okay, what was the top Nova model for 1988 (I owned one)?

The one with the Twin Cam engine would have been the top model. Did it actually have a name? Or was it two or three letters of the alphabet?

Craig

rockne10
10-28-2014, 06:23 PM
I am just amazed at the amount of conversation this has generated. I wonder what this says about individual preferences, taste, and aesthetic sensibilities. We all see these things through eyes and minds molded by our individual experience. Very interesting.
We have often seen and discussed these lists in the past; lists developed by people we often dismiss as, for whatever reason, unattached to anything other than their desire for journalistic publication.
Why don't we suggest right here a list of our own (not biased towards Studebakers) most elegant production vehicles in history? Restrict it to U.S. manufacturers.
Then, those suggestions are listed in a poll for our own voting and, once reduced to the final twenty--or ten--present OUR conclusions to Hemmings, Hagerty, Fox, Old Cars, et.al. in the form of a press announcement; gaining exposure for the unbiased and informed opinion of those who drive Studebakers, as opposed to an insurance company representative who may very well be driving a Toyota Avalon.

showbizkid
10-28-2014, 06:25 PM
That's a pretty good idea, Brad!

rockne10
10-28-2014, 06:39 PM
If it would be deemed plausible, it would first require being presented as a newly suggested thread. I could argue, if it had the potential to give the SDC, as an unbiased orphan marque grading extant manufacturers, sufficient exposure in the rest of the collector world, it may even warrant it's own sub forum; though that feels like a bit of a stretch.
Still--just dreaming--what if Hemmings and Old Cars waited each year with rapt anticipation for the results of this year's SDC Elegance awards? After an initial comprehensive survey, SDC could challenge new models to an annual Design de'elegance, putting us right there with J.D. Powers and Motor Trend.
We are not Ford, GM or Fiat! How less biased can we get? Let's take advantage of it ! :) The Loewy C/Ks will forever be in, at the very least, the top 10. As an orphan that may be the very thing that validates our license to judge.
I know a couple of Corvette owners who would probably join SDC just so they could participate in the vote! :lol:

plee4139
10-29-2014, 06:36 AM
By "wood" do you mean woody station wagons?

8E45E
10-29-2014, 06:50 AM
Actually, Dave; we got to ride in quite a few Parisiennes. That was the name Pontiac gave the big, full-size RWD cars here in the 'states for that last several years Pontiac marketed a full-size car here; roughly 1984-1987, IIRC. (Like Chevrolet Caprices, etc.) ;) :cool: BP

Indeed, Bob,

Pontiac dropped the full-size C-body after 1981 in the US, while they still produced it for the Canadian market. When the market made a sudden swing back to full-size cars, Pontiac dealers in the US all screamed for one, and GM was able to instantly respond with the Parisienne from Canada in mid-1983. I remember it was somewhat in haste. Motor Trend road tested one in 1983, and remarked about Canadian market origins including the French & English language stickers under the hood and next to the gas filler.

Craig

showbizkid
10-29-2014, 11:10 AM
To make a nomination in the SDC Award de Elegance, Click Here! (http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?84842-SDC-Award-de-Elegance)

studegary
10-29-2014, 01:35 PM
The one with the Twin Cam engine would have been the top model. Did it actually have a name? Or was it two or three letters of the alphabet?

Craig

Yes, that is the model. The model name was Twin Cam. On the back it said "Chevrolet" and "Twin Cam". There was no "mention" of Nova on it.

Besides the twin cam engine, it also came with a four speed overdrive AT (instead of a three speed direct), four wheel disc brakes (instead of front discs,rear drum), a different exhaust, alloy wheels, power steering, tachometer and heavy duty suspension.
A lot of the mechanicals were like an MR2 Toyota.
Mine also had A/C, four power windows and much more.
They only came in black and had a red bow tie on the front (instead of gold).

8E45E
10-29-2014, 01:48 PM
Yes, that is the model. The model name was Twin Cam. On the back it said "Chevrolet" and "Twin Cam". There was no "mention" of Nova on it.

That was also true of the Concours. The 'Nova' name did not appear on all the ones I saw.

Craig