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BobPalma
09-25-2014, 12:20 PM
:) 'I ran across this photo today while looking for something else:

http://ims.cdn.racersites.com/prod/photos/342430/FULL.jpg

I hadn't seen a Starlight Coupe with Pace ["Official"] Car lettering before this; always convertibles or 4-door sedans.

Also note what appears to be a 1952 Hudson Hornet Hollywood hardtop in the background, being used by Speed Age magazine.

Cool beans.

Later in the day: 'Just added several more; see below. :cool: BP

Commander Eddie
09-25-2014, 12:27 PM
On the side of the car it says "Director - Timing and Scoring". It is an "Official Car" rather than a "Pace Car". That probably accounts for the Starlight Coupe model being used. Not for parades. Pretty nice photo. Is there any information on it regarding who took the photo, date, etc.?

BobPalma
09-25-2014, 12:49 PM
On the side of the car it says "Director - Timing and Scoring". It is an "Official Car" rather than a "Pace Car". That probably accounts for the Starlight Coupe model being used. Not for parades. Pretty nice photo. Is there any information on it regarding who took the photo, date, etc.?

Nope, Ed. I just found it here:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=1952+indianapolis+500&qpvt=1952indianapolis500&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=46C0267467805BF5A4189F1297389571688CB795&selectedIndex=62

I've been researching information about the J.C. Agajanian-sponsored / Willie Utzman-built 1952 DOHC, 32-valve Studebaker V8 built for the Indianapolis 500 Mile Race. I have two sources that should be reliable, but they conflict. One says it was first built for the 1952 race, another says first built for the 1953 race.

'Still sorting that out. :yeahright: BP

BobPalma
09-25-2014, 01:20 PM
'Here's several more Studebaker-related photos from that site:

http://d2i8ejbvsgsqtt.cloudfront.net/gallery/indycar/indy/1952/19520101-nphotographer/med/imsc2317.jpg

http://ims.cdn.racersites.com/prod/photos/292005/FULL.jpg

http://ims.cdn.racersites.com/prod/photos/292006/FULL.jpg

http://ims.cdn.racersites.com/prod/photos/342526/FULL.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QvQNAOew2UY/U9Pe49-4hLI/AAAAAAAAB3M/cXIsF9EUqHE/s1600/cliff+studebaker+1952.jpg

http://troypennysaver.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/WGTPCar_Collector2.jpg

Pop Quiz: What is wrong with this picture:

http://d2i8ejbvsgsqtt.cloudfront.net/gallery/indycar/indy/1952/19520101-nphotographer/med/imsc4348.jpg

Note the name on the car:

http://d2i8ejbvsgsqtt.cloudfront.net/gallery/indycar/indy/1952/19520101-nphotographer/med/imsc4364.jpg

A two-fer of 1952 Studes (look hard):

http://ims.cdn.racersites.com/prod/photos/342455/FULL.jpg

Rare color photo (1952, remember):

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MnT1pRjtDrk/0.jpg

Who is the man at the door:

http://www.strangeoldepictures.com/images/content/180421.jpg

http://d2i8ejbvsgsqtt.cloudfront.net/gallery/indycar/indy/1952/19520101-nphotographer/med/1952_pre-race_5603.jpg

Most of us have seen this one:

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/1952StudebakerPaceCar04-crop.jpg

Not 1952, but an image I hadn't seen before:

http://car-from-uk.com/ebay/carphotos/full/ebay857641.jpg

Dick Quinn's lady friend during qualifications?:

http://videoclipsimage.agaclip.com/4PQ9KMA7fUn-_-1952-indianapolis-500.png

Again, not 1952, but interesting:

http://forums.aaca.org/attachments/f169/5857d1181336178-studebaker-geography-test-343226-1933k35759.jpg

Dick Quinn negotiating for some memorabilia?

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTI3OFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqR,!o4E-v1r0E88BP5uhSimQ!~~60_35.JPG

Sneaky Studebaker trying to hide:

http://ims.cdn.racersites.com/prod/photos/342545/FULL.jpg

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/1952-studebaker-9.jpg

Well, that should keep everyone busy for awhile.... :cool: BP

rockne10
09-25-2014, 01:55 PM
The 1933 Team in front of the Pierce-Arrow is sweet !

8E45E
09-25-2014, 02:00 PM
Gotta LOVE the internet!!


Rodger's name is spelled incorrectly in that one photo.

Craig

j.byrd
09-25-2014, 02:12 PM
Bob P., I've got an idea, if you just say the car was built for the 1961 race, then lots of people will have something to do when they read that and write in with LOTS of information ! And possibly, someone will be right and prove it ! Then you can say the computer got the date wrong and everyone will be happy...see ? Oh, thanks much for all the links, great stuff, John

Chris Pile
09-25-2014, 02:17 PM
MAN! Great pix, Bob. My guess on the man next to the door of the '52 - Harlen Fengler.

BobPalma
09-25-2014, 02:27 PM
Rodger's name is spelled incorrectly in that one photo. Craig

BINGO! As you know, Craig, he was sensitive to his name being misspelled Roger, instead of the correct Rodger. :cool: BP

BobPalma
09-25-2014, 02:30 PM
Bob P., I've got an idea, if you just say the car was built for the 1961 race, then lots of people will have something to do when they read that and write in with LOTS of information ! And possibly, someone will be right and prove it ! Then you can say the computer got the date wrong and everyone will be happy...see ? Oh, thanks much for all the links, great stuff, John

Well, John; that could be one approach...but I think I'll pass. I live in mortal fear of something erroneous having my name attached to it :QQ:, so I'm still checking on that exact year. One of them has to be correct. :cool: BP

BobPalma
09-25-2014, 02:31 PM
MAN! Great pix, Bob. My guess on the man next to the door of the '52 - Harlen Fengler.

Could be, Chris; I honestly don't know. We'll see how many people concur. :) BP

8E45E
09-25-2014, 02:38 PM
I hadn't seen a Starlight Coupe with Pace ["Official"] Car lettering before this; always convertibles or 4-door sedans.

Also note what appears to be a 1952 Hudson Hornet Hollywood hardtop in the background, being used by Speed Age.

I am actually surprised they did not use a new-for-'52 Starliner hardtop, as the Starlight Coupe was getting to old news by then.

Craig

Michidan
09-25-2014, 02:55 PM
As I recall from the Turning Wheels article on the 52 race, Studebaker supplied 27 vehicles in all.
Only 7 were the fancy new hardtops. Even a few trucks got in the mix.

BobPalma
09-25-2014, 02:57 PM
I am actually surprised they did not use a new-for-'52 Starliner hardtop, as the Starlight Coupe was getting to be old news by then. Craig

Agreed, Craig; that would be my opinion. ;) BP

jnormanh
09-25-2014, 03:49 PM
Nope, Ed. I just found it here:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=1952+indianapolis+500&qpvt=1952indianapolis500&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=46C0267467805BF5A4189F1297389571688CB795&selectedIndex=62

I've been researching information about the J.C. Agajanian-sponsored / Willie Utzman-built 1952 DOHC, 32-valve Studebaker V8 built for the Indianapolis 500 Mile Race. I have two sources that should be reliable, but they conflict. One says it was first built for the 1952 race, another says first built for the 1953 race.

'Still sorting that out. :yeahright: BP

Roger Huntington in Design and Development of the Indy Car says the Studebaker V-8 engine first ran on the track in 1953.

Here's a poor quality photo of the engine in the #97 Agajanian car, supposedly from 1953.

http://indiamond6.ulib.iupui.edu/utils/ajaxhelper/?CISOROOT=IMS&CISOPTR=8672&action=2&DMSCALE=5&DMWIDTH=512&DMHEIGHT=456&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=&DMROTATE=0

The Agajanian/Studebaker-Kuzma chassis #97 was entered for driver Allen Heath for 1952, along with the Agajanian/Offenhauser-Kuzma #98 for Troy Rutttman. I don't suppose Aggie would have paid both entry fees unless he expected the Stude to be ready to run in '52. However the Stude didn't show up, or didn't run on the track. It may just have not been completed in time.

Heath did practice in 1952 in another car, but no record I can find that he practiced in the #97 Aggie/Stude.

http://indiamond6.ulib.iupui.edu/cdm/ref/collection/IMS/id/9243

Aggie's #98 car did somewhat better in 1952.

http://dc402.4shared.com/img/Ks07dgYF/s3/11ed5f55218/1952_indy_500_-_troy_ruttman__.jpg

So I'm guessing that the engine existed in 1952, and was installed in a Kuzma chassis with the intention to run it, but didn't actually run on the track until 1953. The #97 Aggie car is not listed here as having attempted to qualify in 1952.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952_Indianapolis_500#Failed_to_qualify

The Stude-Kuzma did run, apparently not many practice laps, in 1953. Aggie gave up and sold the car.

It returned in a few subsequent years, but never ran long or fast enough to qualify.

The probable answer to your conundrum is that the Stude V8 was built with the intention to run in 1952, but wasn't quite ready, although I believe it was run at least on a test stand, and was possibly installed in a Kuzma chassis sometime prior to May of 1952.

Willie Utzman was the mechanic, but the engine wasn't "built" by him. It came off the drawing board of Leo Goossen (possibly with the help of Bud Winfield) and was built at the Meyer-Drake shop in California.

Chris Pile
09-25-2014, 04:40 PM
Could be, Chris; I honestly don't know. We'll see how many people concur.

On 2nd thought, I retract my offering. The man is too old to be Harlan Fengler in '52.

I notice a AAA patch on one sleeve, and Mobil Oil Economy Run patch on the other. Could he be A.C. Pillsbury, the regional contest board director of the AAA?

Bordeaux Daytona
09-25-2014, 05:38 PM
Vey nice pictures Bob! Thanks for posting them:)

I posted this ebay picture a while back of a 4 dr, I don't know if anybody got to see it.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21332&d=1360938248

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?69095-Interesting-1952-Indy-500-4dr-Studebaker-Festival-Car-Picture-on-Ebay&highlight=1952+indy


The ebay link's still good yet.

WILBUR SHAW CLARENCE CAGLE C B BOHNER STUDEBAKER 1952 INDY 500 8 X 10 PHOTO
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WILBUR-SHAW-...item3377aaf19d (http://www.ebay.com/itm/WILBUR-SHAW-CLARENCE-CAGLE-C-B-BOHNER-STUDEBAKER-1952-INDY-500-8-X-10-PHOTO-/221051023773?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item3377aaf19d)

PackardV8
09-25-2014, 10:34 PM
Willie Utzman was the mechanic, but the engine wasn't "built" by him. It came off the drawing board of Leo Goossen (possibly with the help of Bud Winfield) and was built at the Meyer-Drake shop in California.

I'd love to read some more about this. This scenario makes more sense, as drafting a new head and timing cover, making patterns and castings requires experience and expertise. This Leo Goosen and Meyer-Drake had aplenty. Some of the small format magazine articles gave Utzman more credit and didn't mention Goosen/Meyer-Drake at all. Where can we go for more source material?

jack vines

Gary1953
09-25-2014, 11:07 PM
Not '52 but still pretty neat.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350868793136?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

BRUCESTUDE
09-25-2014, 11:16 PM
Excellent photos, Bob! I especially like the 2R fire truck!

61LaRk4dr
09-26-2014, 12:16 AM
Very nice to see some historical pictures. One has to wonder about the opportunities missed in both 1952 and in 1962 showing off the succeeding model (1953 Coupe, and 1963 Avanti) during the Indy 500. I have heard of the stories behind the struggles to get an Avanti to pace the Indy 500 in 1962, but maybe they weren't as concerned in 1952? Coincidence that this manage to happen 10 years apart from each other.

jnormanh
09-26-2014, 06:31 AM
Here are some nice photos and verbage about Goossen engines, including the Stude.

http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Speedway-Motors-Museum-of-American-Speed.htm

clonelark
09-26-2014, 09:12 AM
The first picture has a nice shot of the tires used in 1952 High letter Firestones, you can still get these tires from Coker.

57pack
09-26-2014, 12:20 PM
Thanks Bob! Really enjoyed those photos! If I were younger, I'd like to find a 52 and replicate that car!
My Packard has me up to my eyeballs in alligators!
Do you know of any photos of the Studebaker race car team from the Atlantic City Raceway days? Also know as Amatol Raceway. In my back yard here in Hammonton NJ.

Ron Cee
09-27-2014, 05:45 PM
Chris;

Your second thought is correct, not Harlan.

Harlan Fengler was then an on staff IMS USAC official to Chief Steward Harry McQuinn and succeeded him as Chief Steward starting in 1958.

Ron Carbaugh aka Ron Cee
New Lebanon, Ohio

stude dude
09-28-2014, 02:31 AM
Was just reading about the Agajanian DOHC engine in one of Dick Datsons old books. An amazing amount of horsepower from a relatively small engine. He makes some comparisons in his book with the Granatelli Due Cento R5 engine of 10 years later and notes that they did not gain a huge amount of extra horsepower over the earlier DOHC engine despite more cubes, injection and twin superchargers.

Should be a very interesting article Bob!

Chris.

jnormanh
09-29-2014, 01:38 PM
I've heard from a fellow who has seen the AAA Contest Board records for Indianapolis 1952. The Agajanian #97 Stude/Kuzma is listed as "did not arrive".

There's a listing (http://www.studebakerracing.com/aaaopen3.html#1952) that the car attempted to qualify for three one hundred mile AAA dirt track races later in 1952. However those claims appear not to be accurate since Johnny Boyd is listed as driver for two of them, and Boyd's first career AAA race was 1954. Don Olds is listed as the other driver in 1952, but Olds entered a AAA race only once, in 1953, in an Offy.

This same source also claims the Stude attempted to qualify at Indy in 1952 when in fact, it never arrived at the track.

In 1953 the Kuzma/Stude broke a crankshaft and did not attempt to qualify.

The only other Indy appearance I can find for the Stude DOHC is Dick Rathman, 1956. The Stude engine was in #78, a Lesovsky chassis owned by Lindsey Hopkins. It practiced but was not fast enough to make the race. http://www.ultimateracinghistory.com/race.php?raceid=1939

jnormanh
09-29-2014, 08:41 PM
Was just reading about the Agajanian DOHC engine in one of Dick Datsons old books. An amazing amount of horsepower from a relatively small engine. He makes some comparisons in his book with the Granatelli Due Cento R5 engine of 10 years later and notes that they did not gain a huge amount of extra horsepower over the earlier DOHC engine despite more cubes, injection and twin superchargers.

Should be a very interesting article Bob!

Chris.

I've tried to put the DOHC Stude story together, but there's little solid evidence and a far bit of myth. We know the top end was designed by Leo Goossen and constructed at Meyer-Drake. The block was apparently Studebaker production, little modified. The crank may have been a Studebaker part with extension welded on, or a new custom, but welded, piece. Rods have sometimes been described as stock Studebaker or Cadillac parts, but in the photos it's obvious they were custom machined H-section, probably made at M-D.

For certain Clay Smith laid out and made the cams, did the final assembly, maybe with help from Willie Utzman, Bud Winfield and others, including Stu Hilborn who did the fuel injection. Clay did the dyno runs.

Early on Clay apparently saw about 470 HP @ 7700 rpm, and lots of oil foaming which he knew would destroy the bottom end, so he laid out new cams for peak hp @ 7000 rpm. That produced solid oil flow and about 400 hp, as good as the best of the Offys would do back then.

The Stude also weighed something like 150# more than an Offy, and had less mid-range torque, so, if the Stude had stayed together and qualified and run, it would have probably been mid-pack at best.

Of course it never qualified or ran, so there's plenty of room for conjecture.

The other question which I have never seen addressed is who convinced Aggie to undertake this hugely expensive experiment? For what he spent on the engine, he could have bought a team of Kurtis-Offys.

My guess is Bud Winfield. Remember, Bud's the guy who convinced Lew Welch to come up with 250K 1936 dollars (probably Ford's money) to finance that other DOHC V8, the mighty Winfield aka Novi engine 15 years earlier.

jnormanh
09-30-2014, 05:48 PM
And BTW, Bob Palma, you're welcome.

BobPalma
10-01-2014, 04:25 PM
Well, I have finally talked to Indianapolis Motor Speedway Historian Donald Davidson.

We had a nice telephone conversation this afternoon; October 1. He confirmed that the Agajanian Studebaker V8 engine did not, to the best of all records he has, appear for the 1952 Indianapolis 500. It did appear for the 1953 race, which was my primary concern. I am going to "go" with 1953 for the article I am writing; I can find no documentation to the contrary.

It did not qualify, which we knew. Donald is of the opinion that Chuck Stevenson may have practiced in the car with the Studebaker engine, but no qualification attempt was made with that engine installed. The car qualified and was raced with an Offenhauser for whatever reason. :cool: BP

ST2DE5
10-01-2014, 04:43 PM
The 52 Convertible Pace car was at Menomonie Meet. I showed a picture of it but I guess nobody saw it.

Studebaker Wheel
10-01-2014, 06:28 PM
I cannot add anything to the mystery of the race engine that prompted Bob's initial post however I believe I can add materially to the general topic of the cars Studebaker provided for the 1952 race. Besides the two pace car there were 20 other Commanders broken down as follows: 6 - State Starliner hardtops (K2), 5 - Four door Land Cruisers (Y5), 4 -State Sedans (W5), 2 - State 2-door sedans (F5), 1 - State convertible (S2), 1- State Starlight Coupe (C5) and 1 - Regal 2 door sedan (F3). In addition there were three Champions, an S2 convertible, a hardtop and a Regal 4-door sedan. There were also 3 - 2R5 pickups and one 2R10. I have the names and positions of each person to whom the cars were assigned. As for that Starlight Coupe shown in Bob's first post it was assigned to C. M. Rigsbee Asst director of timing and scoring (serial #8249851, Body 3H C5 1646). After the race he purchased the car for his own personal use. In total then there were 25 cars and 4 trucks that went to Indy. After the race most (not all) were purchased at discount by the local Indianapolis dealer Charlie Stuart and sold as low mileage used cars. Oh, all cars except one Commander hardtop (serial 8250693) were painted Maui Blue and it was finished in Sand Rust. All trucks were painted Cherokee Red. As far as is known none of the 25 vehicles has survived.

BobPalma
10-02-2014, 07:11 AM
Thanks, Dick; interesting material. :!:

Have we ever published the Serial Numbers of all those 1952 cars, to see if any of them are now living "unbeknownst" among SDCers. Even if we published them years ago in Turning Wheels, they ought to be published again as people come and go, and acquire cars not previously owned by SDC members.

One thing that has impressed me in researching this engine is the incredible importance The Indianapolis 500 Mile Race formerly enjoyed in not only motor sports, but in the entire motoring culture de jour. Anything and everything that was going on at, or planned for, "Indianapolis" on a given year was Big News, eagerly absorbed and promoted by the press.

That seems to be why several magazines wanted the scoop on this engine...and may account for conflicting details that must now be sorted out! :eek: :QQ: BP

Studebaker Wheel
10-02-2014, 10:44 AM
Yes Bob, they are all listed in my April 1999 T.W. Almanac column.

bezhawk
10-02-2014, 11:26 AM
I've tried to put the DOHC Stude story together, but there's little solid evidence and a far bit of myth. We know the top end was designed by Leo Goossen and constructed at Meyer-Drake. The block was apparently Studebaker production, little modified. The crank may have been a Studebaker part with extension welded on, or a new custom, but welded, piece. Rods have sometimes been described as stock Studebaker or Cadillac parts, but in the photos it's obvious they were custom machined H-section, probably made at M-D.

For certain Clay Smith laid out and made the cams, did the final assembly, maybe with help from Willie Utzman, Bud Winfield and others, including Stu Hilborn who did the fuel injection. Clay did the dyno runs.

Early on Clay apparently saw about 470 HP @ 7700 rpm, and lots of oil foaming which he knew would destroy the bottom end, so he laid out new cams for peak hp @ 7000 rpm. That produced solid oil flow and about 400 hp, as good as the best of the Offys would do back then.

The Stude also weighed something like 150# more than an Offy, and had less mid-range torque, so, if the Stude had stayed together and qualified and run, it would have probably been mid-pack at best.

Of course it never qualified or ran, so there's plenty of room for conjecture.

The other question which I have never seen addressed is who convinced Aggie to undertake this hugely expensive experiment? For what he spent on the engine, he could have bought a team of Kurtis-Offys.

My guess is Bud Winfield. Remember, Bud's the guy who convinced Lew Welch to come up with 250K 1936 dollars (probably Ford's money) to finance that other DOHC V8, the mighty Winfield aka Novi engine 15 years earlier.
In my research there were several different itterations of this engine. One had custom made tubular rods, the other used modified Oldsmobile rods.

Buzzard
10-02-2014, 11:47 AM
Terrific pics Bob-Thanks. The one pic shows how well magnesium wheels stand up in a fire.
Bill

Dwain G.
10-04-2014, 10:33 PM
38178Photo taken on Notre Dame campus?

BobPalma
10-04-2014, 11:12 PM
38178Photo taken on Notre Dame campus?

Dick Quinn posted and described that photo in an earlier thread, Dwain. Craig Parslow will probably link us to it! <GGG> ;) :cool: BP

8E45E
10-05-2014, 10:47 AM
Dick Quinn posted and described that photo in an earlier thread, Dwain. Craig Parslow will probably link us to it! <GGG> ;) :cool: BP


http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?30971-1952-Studebaker-Pace-Car&highlight=1952+notre

Craig

jnormanh
10-05-2014, 11:53 AM
In my research there were several different itterations of this engine. One had custom made tubular rods, the other used modified Oldsmobile rods.

Could be there were multiple sets of rods. As best I can tell, two complete, running engines were assembled, and there were at least most of the parts to assemble a third, plus a few parts towards a fourth.