Brakes: 1950 Champion Brake issue causing me concern

[Iroll]

I cringe when I read the various threads about the brakes on the Studebaker. I am not ready to acquire a bunch of special tools and go up against what seems like an almost ridiculous amount of pain to just get a drum off, so hopefully the issue I am experiencing doesn't require that level of effort. I noticed that when I parked back in my driveway after a short ride that the car didn't freely roll. I had pulled and then released the parking brake, so I figured it was likely the parking brake was getting hung up somewhere. It was late that day, so I left it overnight and the car was once again rolling freely in the morning. So whatever it was freed up overnight. The next day I pressed the brake pedal a few times, and now it was not free rolling again, without the park brake on or having been pulled. So I realize the issue is due to the braking system, and I read several similar reports of this happening on these cars with horror stories that follow. I know on the old Volvos I have experienced an issue where the rubber lines can actually act as a check valve when they get old, and cause this seemingly exact problem. Is anyone aware of this happening on the Studebakers? On my 50 Champion, the wheel cylinders, and shoes were all replaced at a shop exactly 4 years(and 300 miles) ago. They also put a new master cylinder in as well at that time. I have not pressed the brake and jacked the car to see exactly which wheel or wheels are freezing, but I am asking what the likely culprit could be knowing that wheel cylinders and shoes have been replaced fairly recently?

[unclemiltie]

With Dot 3 brake fluid if the car sits 3-4 years unused the fluid can absorb moisture and can cause the wheel cylinders to stick or even freeze up. I have had this happen several times to me so I now use Dot 5 Silicone fluid in all my cars. It does not absorb moisture but it does cause the brake light switch to fail more often but it is easier and cheaper to change the switch every couple years.

As you brake hoses are only 4 years old they should be fine.

You are most likely going to have to put new kits in your master cylinder and the 4 wheel cylinders. Pulling of the rear drums is not that hard as long as you use a proper puller

[Iroll]

The car was driven every couple of months or so, but just not for long distances. I have not had issues like this with my other cars that sit for similar periods. Is this something unique to the Studebaker wheel cylinder architecture, or do you attribute it to the brake fluid just absorbing water? I went out to look at what the fluid looks like and I cant even find the reservoir!

[studeski]

Do you have standard transmission and hill holder?

[Iroll]

It is a standard, and has a parking brake, if that's the hill holder?

I also just looked again for the master cylinder. Where the heck is it? I cant find it. I followed the lines, but they get lost at the front of the frame. I also do not believe the rubber hoses at the front or the one in the rear have been changed in a long time, if ever. They are not cracked, but look very old. They definitely were not changed when the wheel cylinders and master cylinder were replaced. Has anyone heard of the rubber hoses acting as a check valve on these cars, causing the brake shoes to not release? I think I will probably start there, as that would be the easiest thing to do I would think. Replace the hoses and bleed the system, and see what happens. Assuming I can find the master cylinder!

While crawling around under the car I was happy to find that the entire undercarriage of this car is incredibly clean and solid. Its almost bizarre that a 64 year old car could be this clean.

[55coupe]

Sit in your car with your feet flat on the floor the m/c is under your feet. The m/c is on the outside of the frame the hill holder in inside the frame. Removeing the rear drums is no big deal find a hub puller follow instructions and remove. It does sound like rubber lines should be replaced, then adjust the rod between brake pedal and linkage. Join the local chapter of Studebaker Drivers Club find a manual for your car and good luck were all counting on you.

[gordr]

The master cylinder is under the floor, beneath your feet when you sit in the driver's seat. You should be able tp pull up the carpet or floor mat to find the access plate, and the filler cap below the floor.

Yes, bad hoses on Studebaker brakes absolutely can act as check valves and hold pressure on a wheel, same as on any other car. I have seen instances of such myself.

When the brakes are in this locked condition, does the brake pedal feel unusually high and hard, compared to its "normal" feel? If so, the push rod to the master cylinder may adjusted too tight, and the relief port in the master cylinder could be blocked.

Hill holder is not the parking brake. It consists of a valve in the brake line adjacent to the master cylinder. In some cases it is mounted directly to the master cylinder, and in others it's a short distance away. There is a marble-sized steel check ball which can roll back and seal against a rubber seat when on an upgrade. That ball is inside a brass cage which holds it off the seat at all times unless the clutch pedal is depressed most of the way. There is a linkage rod running from the hill holder body to the clutch linkage for that purpose. The check ball only functions as a check valve when two conditions are met: that the car is on an upgrade, and the clutch pedal is depressed. So you drove up a hill, and stopped for a red light, using the brakes, and depressed the clutch, because you do that so the engine doesn't stall, and because you will have to shift to low gear to proceed on the green. The two conditions have been met, and the hill holder will hold whatever pressure was used to stop the car in the lines until the clutch pedal is released, which permits you to take your foot off the brake, and feet a little gas as you release the clutch to drive off on the green. No more heel and toe!

Now, on a 64 year old car, a lot may have gone wrong over the years with the hill holder, if it was ever so equipped, and indeed many Studebakers were. The steel ball can become rusty or crudded up, and not roll anymore, or seal if it does roll, and the rubber seat can split or degrade, or perhaps a clueless mechanic disconnected the linkage and parked it in the "applied" position.

I doubt your problem is with the hill holder. Bad hoses or improperly adjusted master cylinder push rod are the two most common causes of your problem. I had that problem once in a GT Hawk, and it turned out that an eccentric brake drum was causing the wheel cylinder to heat up and lock the brakes on that wheel. Replaced the drum, problem solved. Next time the problem occurs, go around the car, and feel the temperature of all four brake drums with your hand, being careful not to burn yourself, since they can get HOT. They should only be warm, though, if the car was just driven gently in normal traffic. Should one drum be much hotter than the others, look there, or at the the line which feeds it, for your problem.

Incidentally, we have spoken mainly of rubber hoses, but the steel "hard lines" can rust internally, and become blocked, or rust nearly through, and then fail catastrophically when a real hard stop is made. If it were my car, and I was the least bit suspicious of their internal condition, I would replace them, and the rubber hoses, too. Since this may have been done a few years ago by a prior owner, I'm not going to recommend you replace all the lines at once. But if you know for a fact they have never been replaced, it would be wise to consider it.

[Iroll]

find a manual for your car and good luck were all counting on you.

Ugggh, so much pressure!

Is there a preferred repair manual to buy? I cant find a pdf online, and I see this version on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/1950-Studebake...debaker+manual . Is this the one I want?

I am going to join SDC as well as my local chapter. I don't intend on keeping this car forever, but I want to get it sorted and enjoy it for a least a little bit.

The car was actually my Grandfathers', and he owned it since the 60's. Then my Uncle had it for about the last 20 years or so. I just acquired it a few days ago. It only has 29,000 original miles on it. I remember driving it a few times in the 80's and back then it was at 26000 miles. I am pretty much certain the lines were never replaced, so I guess I should be concerned the metal lines could burst. Scary thought. I have only driven it a grand total of about 2 miles so far since I acquired it, so I am not really sure what a normal pedal should feel like on this car, but it does seem to be very hard after it is pushed. It has almost no travel at all, but again, I don't know what is normal. I will try to get the manual asap. I just ordered the 3 rubber hoses. I did find the circle hatch on the drivers floor, and I see a good size bolt, that is the reservoir 'plug' I assume, or does removing that let the top of the reservoir come off? I really hope to get a manual asap so I can read about how to adjust the push rod properly.

[StudeRich]

It is just a Filler Plug, you are looking at the complete Master Cylinder. Good job, you found it!

I am betting it has never been opened since being installed 4 years ago, and that Fluid is not pretty.

[Iroll]

It is just a Filler Plug, you are looking at the complete Master Cylinder. Good job, you found it!

Baby steps!

I will get those new rubber lines on as soon as they show up, and flush out with fresh fluid. Hopefully I figure which manual to order and I will order that right away as well.

[jclary]

Ugggh, so much pressure!

Is there a preferred repair manual to buy? I cant find a pdf online, and I see this version on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/1950-Studebake...debaker+manual . Is this the one I want?

I am going to join SDC as well as my local chapter. I don't intend on keeping this car forever, but I want to get it sorted and enjoy it for a least a little bit.

The car was actually my Grandfathers', and he owned it since the 60's. Then my Uncle had it for about the last 20 years or so. I just acquired it a few days ago. It only has 29,000 original miles on it. I remember driving it a few times in the 80's and back then it was at 26000 miles. I am pretty much certain the lines were never replaced, so I guess I should be concerned the metal lines could burst. Scary thought. I have only driven it a grand total of about 2 miles so far since I acquired it, so I am not really sure what a normal pedal should feel like on this car, but it does seem to be very hard after it is pushed. It has almost no travel at all, but again, I don't know what is normal. I will try to get the manual asap. I just ordered the 3 rubber hoses. I did find the circle hatch on the drivers floor, and I see a good size bolt, that is the reservoir 'plug' I assume, or does removing that let the top of the reservoir come off? I really hope to get a manual asap so I can read about how to adjust the push rod properly.

Hey...welcome to our Studebaker world. When it comes to brakes, or much of any other mechanical issues with these old cars...be they Studebaker or other makes, all are very similar and few are so unique that someone with a good general mechanical knowledge couldn't work on them. For the exact procedures for your particular model, a copy of the factory shop manual is a very valuable tool.

Hydraulic brakes are pretty much the same in their operation from the time of their invention right up to today's systems. Exception being, ABS systems, but even then...the principles of hydraulic pressure apply. I have a Dodge Ram with four wheel disc brakes. A couple of weeks ago, I had one caliper to fail to release pressure. I chose to drive it home anyway. By the time I made the few miles home, it was so hot that it took several minutes of quenching with my garden hose to cool it off. The next day was spent replacing that assembly.

On your car, it is important to determine which wheel is binding (or all, if the problem is at the master cylinder). There's something about DOT 3 fluid that seems to promote the corrosion (often a greenish/white powdery gunk) found on the back side of your wheel cylinder pistons inside the rubber dust covers. The reaction between the cast-iron cylinders, aluminum pistons, steel push-rods, or brake backing steel, is a product of close proximity of dissimilar metals and the brake fluid that oozes past the internal cup seals. At least that's my observation. It is possible for that corrosive mess to pack in so hard as to prevent the brakes from moving freely. It is not unique to Studebaker. And as I have experienced, even modern disc caliper pistons can bind, valves can malfunction, and mechanical pivot points can seize up.

Through the years, designs have changed, components have been improved, but the principals remain the same. Don't be too intimidated, or "over-think" the problem so much that it makes you hesitate to start the job. It is an opportunity to learn something new. You'll need to know how to get in there sooner or later. On the front wheels, if nothing else but to clean, inspect, and pack the wheel bearings with new grease. The rear does require an appropriate wheel puller. Like getting a shop manual...Another good investment.

I would want to support the car on jack stands and check all wheels for drag first. That way, you will know if it is the master cylinder or an individual wheel causing the problem. Let us know what your find. I hope you enjoy your car. None of us keep them forever. In many cases, they outlast us.

[Iroll]

I doubt your problem is with the hill holder. Bad hoses or improperly adjusted master cylinder push rod are the two most common causes of your problem.

Good call! It was the master cylinder push rod. I learned that was an issue for the last 10 years while my Uncle owned this car, and the shop he had servicing it didn't know how to adjust it properly. I know I still should do an entire line replacement, but that will have to wait until winter. I saw the full stainless line kits for about $175, which seems pretty fair.