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Springstreet
06-03-2014, 07:35 PM
Has anyone put ABS/TC on a Studebaker (Avanti)? I have a GM parts car with a complete system, but it has unit front wheel bearings with integral reluctors and sensors which would not work for the Studebaker's separate bearings and spindles. It seems that the rear axle could be easier if new flanged axles had the reluctors pressed on by the manufacturer (Moser) and if the parts car's sensor could mount on the disc brake bracket and then have the same length wire to not mess up the signal/resistance.
Any thoughts?

rockne10
06-03-2014, 08:41 PM
If I had the option of eliminating ABS in any vehicle, I would go out of my way to do so! (Stated as a truck fleet manager).
Maybe some folks brains are not better than the computers, sensors and tone rings on those ABS systems. Your experience may vary.

StudeRich
06-03-2014, 11:46 PM
I see no advantage to overcomplicating a well Engineered System that works well when left stock or even better when converted to a Turner Brake upgrade kit.

rockne10
06-04-2014, 12:50 AM
Well, the advantage, Rich , is that you can put someone behind the wheel who has no clue how to drive and the computer may--underscore may-- permit them to choose what they will run in to.
To be fair, this is only based on my five years of driving taxi, thirty years as a professional trucker, then ten years as a fleet manager. It's entirely possible that I am full of s**t and my hat don't fit.

Having said that, I have in no way assisted Doug in the technical pursuit of his ABS installation.
If he can ignore my biased experience, hopefully someone on the other fence can provide the technical expertise he requests.

sweetolbob
06-04-2014, 10:48 AM
Has anyone put ABS/TC on a Studebaker (Avanti)? I have a GM parts car with a complete system, but it has unit front wheel bearings with integral reluctors and sensors which would not work for the Studebaker's separate bearings and spindles. It seems that the rear axle could be easier if new flanged axles had the reluctors pressed on by the manufacturer (Moser) and if the parts car's sensor could mount on the disc brake bracket and then have the same length wire to not mess up the signal/resistance.
Any thoughts?

Springstreet

ABS has been a great addition to vehicles driven by the Vox Populi as it does assist the average driver in stopping safely particularly under adverse road conditions. That said, I'll join the others is just putting the best brakes I can on my Classic Cars.

My disclaimer though is if you do go ahead with this modification, please post the construction and final results as it can help a lot of folks in the future to upgrade to ABS.

Also, just because I have no suggestions currently, please ask as you go along as I don't think the folks on the forum want to do anything but help. Our opinions are just the viewpoint of older folks that grew up driving without ABS. But if you are working to improve the old technology then I can't see why most of us won't add constructive suggestions.

Neat project, Bob

Mike Van Veghten
06-04-2014, 02:01 PM
On one had, I agree with the others...in general.

On the other hand, if you drive on the track and push the car right to the very edge of it's limits...then yea, ABS can be of great benifet. Come-on you'd be called a sissy-boy in the 60's/70's NASCAR for wanting power steering and better working brakes...NOW they are there..!

Well...in thinking a little more...maybe accident avoidance ABS could be of a benifet...one of those AAH-S#!T moments.
But still, not worth the effort for me. I've so far managed to avoid being in the middle of one of those moments by paying attention to my surroundings.

Sounds like an interesting project though. Keep us posted.

Mike

sbca96
06-04-2014, 05:06 PM
You could look at the parts on a 1994-1996 Impala SS, they use a ring on the rotor that a
sensor "sees" as it spins past. A 4th Gen F-body (Camaro/Firebird) has an inclosed system
up front, but a pressed on ring in the rear. As long as the tooth count is the same, a rear
ring could be added to the rotor and the rear hub. My disc brake adapter could be modded
to allow the use of the sensor, and the Studebaker hub could be machined to accept that
ring I mentioned. Its all very possible, but not inexpensive. ABS is great for a street car,
but most racers disable the system as it adds a level of uncertainty in how it responds. It
also has a tendency to "disable" itself when high temperatures of hard braking are seen. I
recall one night of hard two lane road carving I was doing in my 1993 Camaro Z28 that an
ABS light came on to notify me the system may or may not operate. Once cooled off the
light went off and the system worked again as advertised.

There is also the early truck ABS systems that only operate the rear wheels, that can be
used to at the very least keep the rear end from coming around.

Tom

jbjr
06-04-2014, 05:55 PM
I fully agree with rockne10 about abs in cars and trucks. Having 20 + years of driving a big rig anything that will help keep you safe is good. One other point in my humble opinion most people should take their driving test every year, which would leave less people on the road

rockne10
06-04-2014, 09:00 PM
ABS has been a great addition to vehicles driven by the Vox Populi as it does assist the average driver in stopping safely particularly under adverse road conditions.
:eek: Love you to death, Bob but! Based on my experience, which is not minimal and, granted, I am biased to my own opinion; ABS has never been minimally wonderful, let alone a "great addition to vehicles", other than to the engineers and manufacturers of ABS parts and systems. My favorite Rolls-Royce mechanic verifies it's maximum value is in enabling you to have the opportunity to choose what you will hit.
I grew up and learned to drive experiencing the affect and control of my own foot on the brakes. Then spent more than 6 MILLION miles behind the wheel of trucks with ABS. When you put your foot on that pedal and you have absolutely no idea what the computer is going to tell the brakes to do...THAT..is not the most comfortable feeling!

Rant over! :D

R_David
06-05-2014, 05:35 AM
When I first moved to New England and was learning to drive in the snow ABS in my daily driver saved me from numerous certain accidents. Mostly related to me not leaving enough room between me and the car in front of me when approaching a stop. When I was 'panicking' due to the person in front of me stopping and my car sliding towards them I kept trying to push the brake pedal through the floor board (even though my brain was saying 'PUMP THE BRAKES' my feet weren't listening :)), and the ABS system would take over and stop me safely.

In my opinion ABS is essential if you live in a place with snow. I don't need it on my Hawk because I would never drive my Hawk in the snow. Just my 2 cents.

Springstreet
06-05-2014, 07:47 AM
Thanks for the input. Here's where I'm at now. My used (soon to be chromed) 18" alloy wheels have open spokes so any brake calipers and rotors will be very noticeable. Rusty old rear drum brakes and (even new) bland Turner rotors/calipers would be greatly improved by substituting the red PBR calipers and drilled rotors (that I already own). I called Skip at StreetRod Manufacturing and found out that years ago they were contacted by some Avanti folks so they still have Dana 44 (2 15/16 X 2 1/2 bolt pattern) rear bracket/spacer plates which match my large GM calipers (and E brake). As for axles, when his R-3's needed to handle more horsepower (like my LS-2's 400 HP), Andy Granitelli used flanged axles so I want to replace my unserviced 34 year old tapered axles with Moser units which (I hope) can be purchased with 47 tooth reluctors and 120 mm lug spacing. Then, I can then mount my parts car's sensors to the (?) brake brackets.
For the front, the Turner Economy kit comes in two pieces, so if the caliper mounting bolt spacing does not match my larger PBR (Corvette) brakes then (again hopefully) more metal can be added or CNC fabricated. I know the existing hubs will need to be re-drilled for new lugs and (as suggested) something will be needed to be machined for 47 tooth rings and sensors. Oh, and then I'll need to add spacers all around because my chosen alloy wheels have a 48mm offset!
As to ABS, my parts car has a complete sensor/wiring harness/ECM (my Avanti's was rusted out). If I don't want the new dash to always look like a Christmas tree, I'm still clinging to the idea of reusing all the wiring (and cruise control). I live in Vermont (where it seems to snow whenever it wants to) so even though I plan to drive my retromod Avanti only in the summer (on gravelly Vermont roads) who knows?
What is more important to me is my part's car's Traction Control. I grew up lusting after my cousin's Avanti (while driving my mother's 53 Studebaker) but I did borrow my friends' ridiculously overpowered skinny tired muscle cars. Now that I'm putting 400 HP in a 3,000 pound car, I foresee some flashback 19 year old throttle bashing moments and thus the occasonal need for Traction Control.

Bordeaux Daytona
06-05-2014, 07:55 AM
There was an article in Hot Rod magazine a while back (I thought it was only a year ago but it was a bit more, how time flies) about adding abs to older muslce cars. I found it online.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_1108_abs_for_hot_rods/

sbca96
06-06-2014, 03:30 AM
For the front, the Turner Economy kit comes in two pieces, so if the caliper mounting bolt spacing does not match my larger PBR (Corvette) brakes then (again hopefully) more metal can be added or CNC fabricated. I know the existing hubs will need to be re-drilled for new lugs and (as suggested) something will be needed to be machined for 47 tooth rings and sensors. Oh, and then I'll need to add spacers all around because my chosen alloy wheels have a 48mm offset!

You mean like this? Turner doesn't deal with modern tech, his system is based on 1st Gen Mustang rotors
and 70s era calipers. If you want MODERN disc brakes for your Studebaker .. that would be me ..

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Cover_Picture_Day/L_Covershot2_021a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/avantibrakeproject/cobra_install/cobra_install024a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/avantibrakeproject/cobra_install/cobra_install021a.jpg

PM me, I have one set of PBR 13 inch brake mounting brackets left... read up on the link in my signature.
From the links below, depending on what year Corvette caliper you have - its a bolt on.

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/wheels-tires/m5lp-0407-pbr-pin-drive-caliper/

http://forums.corral.net/forums/general-mustang-tech/1177444-cobra-calipers-corvette.html

Tom

JoeHall
06-06-2014, 06:50 AM
If I had the option of eliminating ABS in any vehicle, I would go out of my way to do so! (Stated as a truck fleet manager).
Maybe some folks brains are not better than the computers, sensors and tone rings on those ABS systems. Your experience may vary.
While disc brakes on a Stude are an unquestionable upgrade, not so with ABS. ABS is nice on modern cars, and probably safer for the wife in her Honda Odyssey. But putting ABS on a Stude would be kinda like putting a saddle on a boar hog; bragging rights and interesting conversation maybe, but that's about it. :D

As for DBs, the Turner kit needs an easier pedal push, and leaves one in a quandary: keeping the hydrovac keeps the easier pedal, but no safe way to plumb a Turner dual MC conversion into a Stude with a frame mounted MC, and keep the hydrovac. Giving up the hydroac in favor of the dual MC leads back to the stiffer pedal. Using a "standard brake pedal" provides a little more leverage, and is close but no cigar; no where near the easy pedal of a hydrovac equipped Stude.

No experience with your brakes Tom, but I know for a fact the old, NLA, 12", "DL style" brakes result in a pedal that is very close to a PB equipped car. Actually the feel is near identical to a 1993 Volvo 240 winter rat, I once had. Hopefully, yours are moving in that direction too.

bezhawk
06-06-2014, 08:56 AM
These are just as well,lighter than the PBR calipers, and fit STOCK wheels. Even 14" if so desired.35411

sbca96
06-06-2014, 12:33 PM
These are just as well,lighter than the PBR calipers, and fit STOCK wheels. Even 14" if so desired.

Stock Studebaker drum brake wheels, or the 1963-1966 disc brake wheels? My "GT" setup WILL fit
in a 15" wheel, though I do not believe an original Studebaker drum brake wheel. I do not have one
around to try. Obviously, the massive 13" Cobra rotor wont fit in a 15" wheel, those require a 17" or
larger wheel to clear the caliper. The following shows the request is for large brakes that fill a large
wheel, which is why I mentioned my larger brake option.


My used (soon to be chromed) 18" alloy wheels have open spokes so any brake calipers and rotors will be very noticeable. Rusty old rear drum brakes and (even new) bland Turner rotors/calipers would be greatly improved by substituting the red PBR calipers and drilled rotors (that I already own).

Tom

dnevin
06-06-2014, 02:03 PM
These are just as well,lighter than the PBR calipers, and fit STOCK wheels. Even 14" if so desired.35411

Tell us more, Bez!

bezhawk
06-06-2014, 07:57 PM
3541835419354203542135422They are Wilwood Dynalite 4 piston calipers on My engineered brackets, and Jeep cherokee rotors. They are the deepest offset rotors I could find. This moves the braking further away from the wheel mounting flange and provides the necessary wheel clearence. I used the Studebaker hub and bearings and seals and drilled out the hub for shoulder studs. This makes the rotor stud centric, and it is clamped between the hub and wheel when the wheel is installed. Tom's setup is the same, but mine uses deeper rotors, and different brackets.
My bracket bolts to the spindle exactly like Jim Turners, same type of spacers but the mounting for the caliper is spaced differently.

dnevin
06-07-2014, 10:18 AM
That's really slick Bez, thanks!

sbca96
06-08-2014, 03:26 AM
Tom's setup is the same, but mine uses deeper rotors, and different brackets.

Oh interesting, I think I posted on Racing Studebakers in regards to this, but never made it back
on there after "Mike Van Veghten" tried to trouble again. You use the counter bored holes to
locate the bracket, how do you maintain alignment with the rotor so your caliper bracket says
on rotor center? The counter bored holes, I assume, are not guaranteed repeatable from flange
to flange. When Studebaker mounted their disc brake adapters for the Bendix, they machined
the flange. I mounted a Studebaker bracket on a 1960 Hawk, and though the bracket fit in the
counter-bored holes, the bracket was not square to the rotor. At the caliper mounts it required
some homemade shims to get it squared up, considerably thicker than Studebaker had available.

I didnt realize that Turner uses these as well. That is why I used the flange face, it checks very
repeatable, I see about a .010 range from Studebaker disc hub to Studebaker drum hubs and no
clearance issues reported back from the sets I have sold. Your screen name looks familiar.

EDIT : Looking at the pictures, yes I recall being concerned about the routing of the brake hose
and what will happen through steering and suspension travel. Has this setup been on the road
as of yet? The pictures look to be a disassembled car? Otherwise looks like a nice way to tuck
the caliper back away from the wheel, the only other concern I would have is the deeper rotor
hat will seriously amplify any out-of-true condition found on the hub face. I found this with the
Cobra rotor, when you get 6.5 inches out from center it can breach the recommended runout of
.002-.005. You are adding a secondary variable by moving a decent amount inward as well.

My two cents.

Tom

Studeous
06-08-2014, 03:58 AM
When I went to GM ABS school in the 90s, I remember, the instructor saying the only time a car with ABS would stop slower would be on a gravel road. ABS will help make the curve, instead of locking up and going straight off the road, on a slick blacktop road.

sbca96
06-08-2014, 04:16 AM
^^
Yes, having logged about a half million miles on ABS equipped cars I can say that in the rain they
just can not be beat. In gravel they work well also, I friend lived on a ranch and I got to try out
the ABS a few times, usually just for kicks. While I am an advocate for good brakes, I'm not in a
big hurry to adapt ABS onto my Avanti.

Tom

bezhawk
06-08-2014, 08:45 AM
The Rotors have no more "run out" than any stock rotor. It's not like it's 14" in diameter. I would think the diameter is much more critical to run out than offset. My physics books say so . I had the brakes mocked upon a completely different frame also, (without springs), and moved them through full range of motion and all possibilities without ANY interference, binding, problems.
I guess I should have stayed stock so I wouldn't step on your toes????:mad:. At least is seems that is how you are coming across.
I stated before and I'll say it again......I could either make these, or only run stock to fit within the parameters of the Halibrand wheels.
How about YOU buy a set @ around 1500++ EACH WHEEL, then get back to me when you get something to fit, and the countless hours of research on dimensions and available parts.....
I am not trying to make these available for anyone, It's a one off (unless it isn't).

sbca96
06-09-2014, 04:47 AM
Well, I sorry if thats how it came across to you, I will admit that after spending quite a
lot of time developing something, then the hassle of making it available to people at a
decently amount of money out of pocket I got a sinking feeling when I saw your setup.
I had hoped to move more seriously into producing these so that I can continue to pay
my mortgage each month. The job market right now is pretty bleak - I'll stop there as
I know political discussions on this forum = the short path to getting a thread locked.

That aside, my points are still valid. I'm not saying the rotor will have additional runout
just that once you transfer the hub runout on an offset it will move up and down along
with wobble. It wont be any different from what Studebaker saw with their disc. I just
saw some runout on the drum brake hubs I used with the 13" Cobra rotors and thought
I would point it out to you to check yours prior to driving. It only took a couple wacks
from a short sledge to clear it up. I guess I phrased my response poorly and I apologize.

At my job, this is what I did, I would find the possible failure points and try to correct
them. I would think worse case and find solutions before there was a problem going into
production, and what problems assembly would have, easiest way for QC to check, etc.

I did consider a modern take of a Halibrand in 17 inch at one time, but decided on the
2003 Cobra wheels since they looked so similar to the original hubcaps.

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/FrontCalipertoWheel1_zps54956fc3.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UFrE7oO89pk/Sf8ZVfHzvwI/AAAAAAAAAj4/1tFJJgC4VHA/s320/FFR-Wheels.jpg

Tom


The Rotors have no more "run out" than any stock rotor. It's not like it's 14" in diameter. I would think the diameter is much more critical to run out than offset. My physics books say so . I had the brakes mocked upon a completely different frame also, (without springs), and moved them through full range of motion and all possibilities without ANY interference, binding, problems.
I guess I should have stayed stock so I wouldn't step on your toes????:mad:. At least is seems that is how you are coming across.
I stated before and I'll say it again......I could either make these, or only run stock to fit within the parameters of the Halibrand wheels.
How about YOU buy a set @ around 1500++ EACH WHEEL, then get back to me when you get something to fit, and the countless hours of research on dimensions and available parts.....
I am not trying to make these available for anyone, It's a one off (unless it isn't).

bezhawk
06-09-2014, 09:25 PM
We sort of got off topic. Any saftey device like ABS should be lauded and a good thing to install. Tom, I would have used your brakes if they would have fit. They are a well designed and good working setup