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Title & Possession Issues: The Bottom Line

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  • Title & Possession Issues: The Bottom Line

    The recent thread about title issues brought to mind the topic of a seminar I gave at The Studebaker National Museum during the 2007 International Meet.

    The Seminar Topic was, "What's The First Thing to do When You've Bought Another Studebaker?"

    The question was posed to the attendees and many answers were volunteered: Check the oil, check the tires, etc. The closest possible answer was, "Check the Battery Hold-Down!"

    The correct answer was: Get the Title and Get The Car in Your Possession.

    To illustrate that importance, I changed the names and car descriptions of two situations in which I had recently been involved, and threw the following scenarios on the overhead screen for discussion.

    Both of the following Horror Stories are true, and of which I have personal, first-hand knowledge from the principles involved. The only fictitious elements are the names of the people and the year(s) and model(s) of the subject Studebaker(s). I emphasize: All the names, both first and last, are fictitious, as are the specific years and models of the Studebakers involved. Everything else is as it really happened to the people involved.



    HORROR STORY ONE


    Like many Studeophiles, Howard Thomas always wanted a 1962 Lark Daytona Festival Car; one of the actual convertibles used during the 1962 Indianapolis 500 Festival. Fellow SDCer Chris Reed



    Howard turned in all the paperwork and received a fresh, current title for the car in his name, in their home state. (Both lived in the same state, so there were no out-of-state title complications.) However, the car was 300 miles away and inoperable, so Howard was in no hurry to pick it up. In fact, he may have delayed picking it up to avoid showing up at home with yet another dead Studebaker needing a complete restoration. After all, he had plenty of Studebaker projects underway as it was.





    CN

    On a hunch, I first checked the Serial Numbers of the 1962 Lark Indianapolis 500 Festival Cars and verified it was one of those convertibles! Good news! However, where was it?

    Dick knew that Howard bought things from Chris Reed from time-to-time, so Dick called Chris to see if he knew anything about the missing 1962 Lark Festival convertible. Chris said,

    Whoa!





    Almost.FOR SALE with a shoe-polished price that was more than Howard had paid. A shoe-polish notation on the window said NO TITLE



    Not quite. When Dick and Jane got the Festival Car home, they discovered that both , so it had no identity!





    (Right: You have to chisel or pry a spot-welded Serial Number plate off a car in your own state and take it to the license branch to go get the title transferred!


    Questions for Discussion:

    1. What did Howard Thomas (the buyer) do wrong?

    2. What did Chris Reed (the seller) do wrong?


    WHAT IS THE LESSON TO BE LEARNED HERE?

    When you buy a car, take material possession of it immediately, even if you get the title at the time of purchase. ne more Studebaker to your wife!)



    HORROR STORY TWO


    Tim Thompson wanted a solid black 1958 Golden Hawk with overdrive because of its rarity. He knew finding one would be a challenge, but he was willing to undertake a substantial restoration if necessary. He was pleased to learn of an older Studebaker enthusiast, Pete Johnson, not that far from him in the same state, that had an overdrive 1958 Golden Hawk that he would consider selling,
    sitting in a barn.

    Tim contacted Pete and made arrangements to see the car. They came to an agreement on price and Tim paid Pete in full for the car, in cash.



    died.

    Oops.

    Jezebel



    Studebaker enthusiast Chris Nelson saw the Sale Bill and was taken with the rarity of the solid-black, virtually untouched but needing everything, 1958 Golden Hawk being offered at the auction. He made plans to attend with cash, fully intending to buy the Hawk if it went for anything near a reasonable price. He brought his tow dolly along with extra tires and wheels to fit a Studebaker, planning to bring the Golden Hawk home if he was the successful bidder.

    Fortunately for Chris, the auction was modestly attended and he was high bidder on the 1958 Golden Hawk. He paid for it in cash, received a properly-executed Bill of Sale and the actual title



    About a month after that, Chris got an unusual telephone call one night. It was from a complete stranger, one angry Tim Thompsonthe actual owner whose name had been on the title tendered to Chris at the auction.

    Chris initially dismissed Tim as some kind of crackpot or jerk, but then listened to his story and realized the poor guy was legitimate; that he had actually paid for the Golden Hawk at least a year before the auction, and was awaiting confirmation that the title had been found and it was OK to come extract and remove the car when Pete died.



    As it turned out, Tim had been in contact with Jezebel after Pete died

    In fact, she had

    Tim somewhat successfully threatened Jezebel with legal action. The initial legal maneuverings scared Jezebel just enough that she offered to give Tim back most of the money he had paid Pete for the Hawk, saying she Tim was forced to weigh the legal cost of pursuing the balance versus writing it off to experience and ultimately decided to let it go, that the legal cost of recovering his balance due would exceed the amount recovered.



    Questions for Discussion:

    1. What did Pete do wrong?

    2. What did Tim do wrong?

    3. What did Jezebel do wrong?

    4. What did Chris do wrong?(answer: Nothing)

    WHAT ARE THE LESSONS TO BE LEARNED?

    1.

    2. When you buy a car, do whatever is necessary to take physical possession of the car at the time of sale, even if it means cutting down vegetation and working hard!

    3. Immediately process into your name any documentation necessary to secure a legitimate, current title for the car (or truck, of course).
    Last edited by BobPalma; 05-26-2014, 09:33 AM. Reason: Had to add Battery Hold-Down <GGG>
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

  • #2
    Since this is a title thread I will add some additional information that may help someone in the future.


    A couple of stories.
    A friend who lives in Indiana was helping a guy recreate the 1953/4 motorama fastback car. One day the guy walks in his shop and shows him a vin tag for a 1953 corvette S/N 29 which he had had made up and used to get an IN title. My friend is always on the up and up so he kicked the guy out of his shop and took everything to him and dumped it in his driveway and left. A year later I was talking to a friend who was coming to Florida to look at a 53 that had been in storage for 40 years and the widow wanted to have it authenticated after he husband died. Guess what the s/n was 29!!! It was the real car and had been bought in W VA many years ago. When the widow went to the dmv in Florida they found the car was already registered in IN and would not issue a title. It created a firestorm on the corvette forums as the forger insisted he had the car but no one had ever seen it in person. Luckily the widow found an earlier FL title that her husband had filed and was able to get the bogus IN title invalidated.
    This did show a problem in title searches, if the car was not registered (Vs titled) in the last 3 or so years it will not show up on asearch.

    In 1960 Cunningham took 4 corvettes to Le Mans and raced them. When he came back they were sold off as used cars and kind of disappeared. A friend of mine got the itch for one back in the late 80s so they wrote to the FIA and got the s/ns of the cars that raced there and initiated a state by state search for them. They found one in the Midwest that had been restored to stock and the owner did not know it was an ex race car. Did they tell him NOOOO they offered to buy it but he was not ready to sell. 6 or 7 years go by and each year they offer to buy the car and he finally sells it. The car was restored to racing condition and is worth 1 Million+.
    They found that one of cars had been last registered inTampa in 1974 but could not trace it any further. Fast forward to 2010 and a guy is going through is fathers warehouse after he died and finds what appears to be a 1957 corvette because of the nose. It should be noted all cars raced at Le Mans geta unique tag with a number that can be traced to the race. Several people I know looked at the car and passed on buying it. None had removed all the grime on the steering column and seen the tag. The guy finds the tag and contacts those who were looking for it and sells it with no title. Unknown to them a 3rdparty had gotten wind of the car, traced the title and found it had been sold in1978 on an open title. It had never transferred as the guy used it as a drag car and it was stolen out of his back yard in the 80s(supposedly). The 3rd party contacted the 1978 seller, and obtained a statement that the car had been sold another party who had died but whose son was still living and obtained the rights to the car through the estate. He then file for a lost title and got one in 2011 which means even though this car had been in this warehouse 40+ years and he did not know where it was he still owned the car and wanted it back. It is currently in court. This is where the storage fee method would trump the lost title. It also demonstrates that if you carry a car on an open title you could loose the car.

    Tyler
    Last edited by Tyler Townsley; 05-26-2014, 12:50 PM.

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    • #3
      Many, many thanks for that additional input, Tyler. If it scares even one person into "getting on with" straightening out a title that's a mess or non-existent, it is worth it.

      Readers: Forewarned is forearmed; as BMVs tighten up and our Studebakers become worth an increasing amount, especially high-dollar ones, you are risking a lot of money by not getting a title in your name, no matter what it takes.

      If you've restored the car or spent any money on it at all, you really don't want a previous owner (or possessor!) to have any legal claim to it. BP
      We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

      G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Great information and examples of something that seems so cut and dry but can turn out so bad. Thanks for posting a Bob. Great purchase guidelines.
        Mike - Assistant Editor, Turning Wheels
        Fort Worth, TX

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        • #5
          I just heard of another one through a PM.

          A fellow I know sold a car on e-bay in the low five figures over two years ago. He has long since been paid in full for it, but the title is still in his name and the new owner has shown little interest in actually picking it up.

          This friend of mine and his wife have no children. So what happens to this guy's "purchase" if my friend and his wife perish in an an auto accident?

          Hey, "it" happens. BP
          We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

          G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks Bob, I knew I was starting a controversial topic with my thread, but I really would like to finish those cars instead of parting them. The p.o. has not talked or seen me since the original "gentleman's agreement. I have dealt with his former right hand man, who has been honest and as helpful as he possibly can be. The issue arose last July 4th when I traveled to Kentucky (13 hours), and loaded up the cars, only to find out at the last minute that the paperwork was not "ready". I therefore withheld a substantial amount of the money, and have on several occasions told the helper that I'd gladly make the total payment upon receiving the titles and paperwork. The p.o.(whom could really use the money) has not produced the paperwork, which leads me to believe he never had it, and therefore I will need to procure these titles on my own. Yup, I am the dumb -ss because I should have not paid anything for them without the titles. I'm still learning, Bill.

            Comment


            • #7
              Bill, I hope you realize I was not directing anything at you. I certainly wasn't! It's just that your inquiry did remind me of that material from 7 years ago. I didn't have to rewrite it; I just copied and pasted from my file.

              Good luck with getting your title issues straightened out. Hopefully, all the experiences posted here (including yours) will make folks more cautious...and make sellers more aware of the fact that they need to have good titles in order if they expect to stay out of trouble! BP
              We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

              G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

              Comment


              • #8
                No offense taken Bob. I should have dotted my I's and crossed ALL the t's. This is good info for everyone to adhere to. Bill

                Comment


                • #9
                  New York State does not issue titles for any vehicle prior to 1973 (some other states have similar situations). When you register the vehicle, you get a transferable registration (ownership transfer section). In order to register the vehicle, you have to have liability insurance, pay the sales tax (8.125% here), get the vehicle state inspected and, of course, pay the registration fee. For vehicles 1973 and newer you can get a title for $50 plus sales tax without insurance, registration and inspection if you do not plan on putting it on the road. [Of course registered dealers have a whole different method of transferring used vehicles.] This creates a problem/expense for older vehicles (all Studebakers). This is one reason for many "open" titles on vehicles. I do see it as an exposure and why some in other states are reluctant to buy vehicles in states like NY.
                  Gary L.
                  Wappinger, NY

                  SDC member since 1968
                  Studebaker enthusiast much longer

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bill van alstyne View Post
                    I'm still learning, Bill.
                    If you have possession of the cars you could use the 'storage' solution to obtain a current title that would trump his paperwork. Just notify him you are 'storing' the car for a certain amount a month and at the end of x time you do not receive the paperwork or storage fees you will execute paperwork to seize the cars for payment and execute the paperwork for a title.

                    Tyler

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by studegary View Post
                      New York State does not issue titles for any vehicle prior to 1973 (some other states have similar situations). When you register the vehicle, you get a transferable registration (ownership transfer section). In order to register the vehicle, you have to have liability insurance, pay the sales tax (8.125% here), get the vehicle state inspected and, of course, pay the registration fee. For vehicles 1973 and newer you can get a title for $50 plus sales tax without insurance, registration and inspection if you do not plan on putting it on the road. [Of course registered dealers have a whole different method of transferring used vehicles.] This creates a problem/expense for older vehicles (all Studebakers). This is one reason for many "open" titles on vehicles. I do see it as an exposure and why some in other states are reluctant to buy vehicles in states like NY.
                      In Florida you an obtain a title without registration for any year car.

                      Tyler

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BobPalma View Post
                        I just heard of another one through a PM.

                        A fellow I know sold a car on e-bay in the low five figures over two years ago. He has long since been paid in full for it, but the title is still in his name and the new owner has shown little interest in actually picking it up.

                        This friend of mine and his wife have no children. So what happens to this guy's "purchase" if my friend and his wife perish in an an auto accident?

                        Hey, "it" happens. BP
                        I am hoping your friend (and mine) will me that car so I can properly restore it LOLS

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          And here is another thought to add to Bob's post that should make you think. If you have a project car sitting in your garage and it is not titled in your name yet,and an act of God happens your homeowners insurance WILL NOT COVER THE PROJECT CAR. Even if it is titled in your name and there is NO CURRENT AUTO POLICY on it and it gets destroyed while sitting in the garage the homeowners policy STILL WILL NOT COVER IT. You have to have a auto insurance policy on it. And the normal insurance companies want the covered car in operable,running condition. My insurance company HAGERTY, offers project car insurance to cover a loss even though it doesn't run! I gave them a stated value level I wanted it insured for and they gave me a price. I can raise it any time I want. So ask your insurance company what is covered and what is not. You might be in for a suprise. I learned all the above from my insurance agent who is a close personal friend. She isn't out to screw me,she wants to make sure my automotive ass-ets are covered.

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                          • #14
                            Most here know that I've done damage appraisals for Hagerty and Grundy. About 4 years ago, I looked at a '72 Nova. The damage was for vandalism on the outside of the car (key scratched).

                            I get the VIN included on the assignment. I looked at the VIN on the car and it's very faint. I look at the build plate on the cowl and the car is listed as a 6 cylinder. The VIN is for a car with a V8. I look at the VIN on the dash again and you can see where the VIN was painted over so you could barely see the lettering.

                            The first thing I do is to get Hagerty's SIU (Special Investigation Unit) involved so they could look at this as fraud. I did speak to the owner who had bought it from the guy doing the work on the car. What I found out from Hagerty afterward was that the shop had bought the car without a title. They bought a V8 title in Florida and transferred that. Hagerty ended up paying the claim, but the owner had to get the paperwork fixed first.

                            It's my feeling that a seller should have a clear title for a car he wants to sell. If he doesn't have the paperwork, run. I've never bought a car without the paperwork.
                            Tom - Bradenton, FL

                            1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2514.10)
                            1964 Studebaker Commander - 170 1V, 3-Speed w/OD

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                            • #15

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