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View Full Version : Are all V-8s dual exhaust - or just 4 barrel V-8s?



pbrown
02-03-2014, 10:49 AM
I was looking at the 1959 sales brochure and read this:
32052

OK, so the 4 barrel and dual exhausts were optional...

But did they always come together? - or could you get a 2 barrel V-8 with dual exhausts?

And my V8 actually came from 1964 - was the policy the same in those years too?

pbrown
02-03-2014, 10:51 AM
And BTW, the sales brochure shows red valve covers.

Mine are yellow...are they correct?

BobPalma
02-03-2014, 10:56 AM
1. Generally speaking, dual exhausts and 4-bbl carburetor are available as separate options, or together as a Power Kit.

2. All 289-engine Hawks had dual exhausts standard equipment regardless of carburetor.

3. 1959 Silver Hawk V8s (259s) had a single exhaust standard equipment, with duals optional with or without 4-bbl carburetor.

4. The illustrated engine is for brochure decoration only. Production 1959 V8 engines had black rocker arm covers. :) BP

pbrown
02-03-2014, 11:09 AM
Cool info - thank you!

candbstudebakers
02-03-2014, 11:38 AM
61 engines had red valve covers, maybe you have a 61 289 check the number, I know a lot of guys liked to paint them red for some stupid reason.

53k
02-03-2014, 12:02 PM
I was looking at the 1959 sales brochure and read this:
32052

OK, so the 4 barrel and dual exhausts were optional...

But did they always come together? - or could you get a 2 barrel V-8 with dual exhausts?

And my V8 actually came from 1964 - was the policy the same in those years too?
My '64 Daytona Wagonaire came with a 259, two-barrel carb and dual exhausts. My (formerly owned) '64 Daytona convertible came with a 289, two-barrel carb and single exhaust. I looked at a '59 or '60 Lark (new on a dealer lot) that had a four-barrel and single exhaust. Take your pick.

PackardV8
02-03-2014, 01:33 PM
Anyone have quick access to the suggested retail for the 4-bbl, the dual exhausts and the Power Kit option?

FWIW, back in the day, for packaging reasons, GM put mufflers and resonators back behind the rear axle. There they ran so cold they rusted out in a few years. CASOs may have been of the opinion by staying with single exhaust, it would run hotter and last longer - (true). They may have also thought a 2-bbl returned better MPG than a 4-bbl - (not true if driven identically).

In the 1980s, Honda, because of their long supply lines to the US, discovered it was actually less expensive to give the buyer all the most common options; radio, heater, mirrors, floor mats, cigar lighter, et al, than to make each one an option. IIRC, the only options on the Gen I Accord were AC and auto trans.

The Germans went the opposite direction and today a Porsche can have the final price be 50% greater than the base price by added options.

jack vines

studegary
02-03-2014, 02:42 PM
Anyone have quick access to the suggested retail for the 4-bbl, the dual exhausts and the Power Kit option?

FWIW, back in the day, for packaging reasons, GM put mufflers and resonators back behind the rear axle. There they ran so cold they rusted out in a few years. CASOs may have been of the opinion by staying with single exhaust, it would run hotter and last longer - (true). They may have also thought a 2-bbl returned better MPG than a 4-bbl - (not true if driven identically).

In the 1980s, Honda, because of their long supply lines to the US, discovered it was actually less expensive to give the buyer all the most common options; radio, heater, mirrors, floor mats, cigar lighter, et al, than to make each one an option. IIRC, the only options on the Gen I Accord were AC and auto trans.

The Germans went the opposite direction and today a Porsche can have the final price be 50% greater than the base price by added options.

jack vines

In 2001, I was shopping for a fair sized and powered coupe. I primarily looked at M-B, BMW and Acura. The base prices were similar. When I got into details, I found that the leather seats, sunroof and much more were standard on the Acura and expensive options on the M-B and BMW. I am still driving my 2001 Acura 3.2 CL.

Corley
02-03-2014, 07:14 PM
61 engines had red valve covers, maybe you have a 61 289 check the number, I know a lot of guys liked to paint them red for some stupid reason.

The old hot rodders saying is: "If it doesn't 'go', paint it red!" Probably doesn't apply here though, huh?

63t-cab
02-03-2014, 07:29 PM
I had a 55 President HT with 4 barrel,but was built with single exhaust.duals were optional,except standard on the Speedster.

StudeRich
02-03-2014, 07:53 PM
The Standard Dual exhausts in GENERAL depended on the Year, Model and Engine involved.

Note that Bob Palma's statement is VERY limited:

"2. All 289-engine Hawks had dual exhausts standard equipment regardless of carburetor."

So that means a non-Hawk could have a 289 without Duals, on most models, -President Classics and '58 Packards had Duals/Power Pack Standard. as were Speedsters and Avantis.

And a Hawk like a '56 Power Hawk could have single or Duals depending if it was ordered with 2 Brl./Single, 2 Brl./Duals, 4 Brl./Single or Power Pack = Both.

SN-60
02-03-2014, 09:02 PM
SO PICTURE THIS............A brand new 1963 Studebaker Avanti built with a 259 CI engine, 2bbl. carb, and SINGLE exhaust system (The base Avanti that Studebaker probably should have offered in 1963.)
Would we all agree that a complete single exhaust system for a 1963 Lark Daytona V8 Convertible would fit an Avanti built in this fashion? EXCEPT...the Daytona tailpipe would need to be swapped for a right side Avanti tailpipe? Would a single exhaust system, using all these standard Studebaker exhaust parts including the long silent (Lark) muffler, fit a 1963 Avanti?

StudeRich
02-03-2014, 10:07 PM
Holy Glasspacks Batman talk about a hypothetical question! WHAT?

Yeah it should fit, but on a performance Car, who cares?

Building a Scotsman Avanti would have been a dumb idea. :ohmy: Why not a 170 "6" Cyl.? :woot:

SN-60
02-03-2014, 11:01 PM
Holy Glasspacks Batman talk about a hypothetical question! WHAT?

Yeah it should fit, but on a performance Car, who cares?

Building a Scotsman Avanti would have been a dumb idea. :ohmy: Why not a 170 "6" Cyl.? :woot:

It's really not that hypothetical Rich. Nate Altman had the same basic idea. Sure, offer the high performance models for the 'Loud Crowd', but offer a more down to earth engine option for folks that want to be SEEN but not HEARD...so to speak! I'm sure MANY more Avantis would have been sold if Studebaker had considered this.

avantilover
02-04-2014, 12:26 AM
To stir the pot a little, I'm considering adding dual pipes to my 1966 Daytona V8, I also have permission from the vehicle inspection folks as long as they don't break noise regulations (they won't if installed).

Any thoughts on this?

Chris Skinner once said they were proposed to be an option but it never happened.

StudeDave57
02-04-2014, 02:37 AM
Any thoughts on this?
Do it!!! It should be easy- Avanti II head pipes and '64 Daytona duals for the rest.

I wanted duals on my '65, but my exhaust shop talked me into a BIG single system instead.
He didn't want to deal with the power steering stuff all in his way on one side, and the filter on the other.
The head pipes are two inchers, and join together into a bigger one. (2 3/4" maybe...?)
A 'Flowmaster' style muffler and another big pipe to the bumper finish it off.
He even got the out and up and back down tip- looking just like Studebaker did it in '65!!!

I didn't get the duals I wanted, but I do feel like the bigger pipe helps the car a bit.
For a 'stock' 283/2v she doesn't sound too bad either. ;) :!:

This is the best I can do for a picture right now~

32110

The rest are on Dad's computer- 1500 miles away... :(
My Cruiser is the green one.



StudeDave '57 :cool:

StudeRich
02-04-2014, 03:27 AM
Is this a little better Dave?

32111

BobPalma
02-04-2014, 07:15 AM
To stir the pot a little, I'm considering adding dual pipes to my 1966 Daytona V8, I also have permission from the vehicle inspection folks as long as they don't break noise regulations (they won't if installed).

Any thoughts on this?

Chris Skinner once said they were proposed to be an option but it never happened.

Chris is correct,

Why not add the duals anyway? They're cool, and you could send Bill Pressler a video of how good they sound to bug him. ;) BP

studeski
02-04-2014, 07:55 AM
The old hot rodders saying is: "If it doesn't 'go', paint it red!" Probably doesn't apply here though, huh?

No............... if it don't go ----- chrome it!

Gunslinger
02-04-2014, 08:03 AM
It's really not that hypothetical Rich. Nate Altman had the same basic idea. Sure, offer the high performance models for the 'Loud Crowd', but offer a more down to earth engine option for folks that want to be SEEN but not HEARD...so to speak! I'm sure MANY more Avantis would have been sold if Studebaker had considered this.

Studebaker's problem was that they couldn't build Avantis to meet initial demand, not that a lower power "entry level" Avanti would or could have spurred sales. Selling them wasn't the problem...production delays was. That's a historical fact. Not being able to sell accumulated inventory was the result of ticked off potential buyers going elsewhere for a new car such as the new model Corvette (an interesting rhetorical question...how much of GM's production of the new model Corvette were due to buyers who first wanted but cancelled orders for an Avanti?). Whether a lower cost "entry level" Avanti may have helped alleviate the later sales problem is an interesting rhetorical argument, though. Still...a low buck version would have gone against the vision Sherwood Egbert had for the Avanti. Another issue not often discussed is many dealers simply didn't know how to sell such a car...it was out of their experience with Studebakers. Egbert himself said said he was impressed with the loyalty many of the dealers showed towards Studebaker but he was distressed by their lack of aggressiveness in sales.

Actually, there was an "entry level" Avanti...the base R1, 3-speed manual, perforated vinyl upholstery model. That so few of these were built as such can be argued it was not a viable way for Studebaker to go. I think a lesser base engine for the Avanti would not have mattered enough to make a difference...the Avanti body required so much handwork and fitting the building cost wouldn't have changed to any great degree. Studebaker had many years of casting and assembling engines...they had no experience with building a fiberglass car of over 100 body pieces.

Nate Altman...at least at first...wanted the Avanti to be a fully equipped car and priced that way rather than the industry standard of base car plus options. Yes...a buyer could delete otherwise standard items to reduce cost but the high base price alone scared off enough potential buyers that Nate soon reverted to the base car plus options. His decision to go with the "base" 300 horsepower Corvette engine fit his vision of a sufficiently powerful touring car suited for people who wanted the individuality of a custom car who wanted to travel in style and quickly...not an all out performance car. Besides...the 300 horsepower Vette engine was already rated with more power than an R2, plus it weighed less and a nice side benefit was quite amenable to aftermarket performance additions more inexpensively than a Stude V8 would have been. Allegedly some Avanti II's left the factory with high performance LT-1 engines but documentation is lacking on that thus far. Any that have a real LT-1 under the hood may well have had them retrofitted like most R3 Studebakers.

There is some at least circumstantial evidence that Nate might have wanted a low buck Avanti II. When the RQB series was introduced for the 1970 model year, it's been written that the original RQA series would have continued as the "entry level" Avanti II with the RQB as the higher grade model with upgraded items such as the transistorized ignition, higher grade upholstery, etc. Even if that were true, it didn't work out based on federal requirements, costs and availability of parts and what market the Avanti sold to.

Whoa...has this tread gotten off-topic!

StudeDave57
02-04-2014, 11:51 AM
Is this a little better Dave?

Yes!!! Thanks Dad!!!!



StudeDave '57 :cool:

northern
02-04-2014, 12:04 PM
Speaking of dual exhausts, can anyone tell me whether all 1954 Commanders came with dual exhaust from the factory? I would have thought not. But the piece of metal below the back bumper on this '54 has a contour on each side for an exhaust pipe. That makes me think that it came with duals from the factory.

53k
02-04-2014, 01:59 PM
Speaking of dual exhausts, can anyone tell me whether all 1954 Commanders came with dual exhaust from the factory? I would have thought not. But the piece of metal below the back bumper on this '54 has a contour on each side for an exhaust pipe. That makes me think that it came with duals from the factory.
No '53s or '54s came with dual exhausts. Someone had added a '55 valance or has cut the original.

northern
02-04-2014, 03:08 PM
No '53s or '54s came with dual exhausts. Someone had added a '55 valance or has cut the original.

Thanks. It's not cut, so it must be from a '55.

avantilover
02-04-2014, 04:22 PM
Chris is correct,

Why not add the duals anyway? They're cool, and you could send Bill Pressler a video of how good they sound to bug him. ;) BP

I'll see what it'll cost and decide, will do one day anyway.

SN-60
02-04-2014, 05:50 PM
Gunslinger,...Your points are all well taken on this 'Base Avanti' idea. Let's face it.....women buy a lot of new cars. If Studebaker could have brought out an Avanti in the $3500.00 range, with a quiet, smooth idling 259 CI engine and automatic transmission, I think that Studebaker Dealers would have had to hire armed guards to keep the customers away....and a lot of those eager customers would have been women! (Like You say, if they could have produced the fiberglass bodies in sufficient enough quantities...which they at first couldn't).
The hot 'R' engines appealed to the guys, but probably not so much to the women at the time. The standard R1/three speed stick model was something that no one really wanted, but a 259 with the powershift transmission (with the regular low-stall torque converter), quiet exhaust system, coupled to a 3.07 read end (with power steering of course.)....would have had huge appeal to women who wanted to be seen in the very latest in automotive design, and would also be purchased by gents who weren't part of the 'Loud Crowd'!

Gunslinger
02-04-2014, 06:40 PM
Gunslinger,...Your points are all well taken on this 'Base Avanti' idea. Let's face it.....women buy a lot of new cars. If Studebaker could have brought out an Avanti in the $3500.00 range, with a quiet, smooth idling 259 CI engine and automatic transmission, I think that Studebaker Dealers would have had to hire armed guards to keep the customers away....and a lot of those eager customers would have been women! (Like You say, if they could have produced the fiberglass bodies in sufficient enough quantities...which they at first couldn't).
The hot 'R' engines appealed to the guys, but probably not so much to the women at the time. The standard R1/three speed stick model was something that no one really wanted, but a 259 with the powershift transmission (with the regular low-stall torque converter), quiet exhaust system, coupled to a 3.07 read end (with power steering of course.)....would have had huge appeal to women who wanted to be seen in the very latest in automotive design, and would also be purchased by gents who weren't part of the 'Loud Crowd'!

You have a point...but as events turned out we'll never know. If the car was producible in quantities when first introduced, something like that might have happened. After all...Pontiac started selling GTO's with 2-barrel/regular fuel engines after the competition came out with lesser expensive muscle just to lower the cost of entry into the market. The GTO had lots of competitors after a couple of model years. But the Avanti's competitors were pretty much in the same dollar range...the Buick Riviera, Pontiac Grand Prix, Ford Thunderbird...plus they were bigger cars as well. That's a fairly rarified market and the Avanti doesn't fit into it squarely but it does in price. Actually...another competitor that belongs in that group is another Studebaker...the GT Hawk. They more or less make up the contemporary personal luxury class but again...the Avanti is more of a touring car and somewhat not a direct fit with them. Studebaker did offer the quiet muffler option for those who didn't want the noise.

As far as American cars go during that era, the Avanti is neither fish nor fowl...it really stands in a class of its own. It doesn't fit comfortably in the personal luxury class nor is it a sports car or the soon to be called muscle car class. While it has many characteristics of what would become the pony car class after the Mustang was introduced...long hood, short rear deck design...it was too expensive to be part of that. Again...it stood on its own and maybe that worked against it, even outside of the production problems that doomed it. Studebaker promoted it as a performance car...the Bonnevllle tests backed that up...but its outdated chassis worked against it as a road car or racing other than in a straight line.

A $3500 Avanti is a tantalizing concept, but based on Studebaker's cost structure, I can't see merely installing a less expensive 259 engine would drop the list price by a grand. It would take wholesale gutting the car's appointments to reduce the retail. Like the 3-speed Avantis, they probably would have been unloved. Chevrolet kept the 3-speed manual as the base transmission for Corvettes until 1969 or '70 and few were sold...no matter how rare they are, no one wants them except to pull it out and install something else...a base for a resto-mod.

We'll never know.

Skip Lackie
02-04-2014, 07:38 PM
You have a point...but as events turned out we'll never know. If the car was producible in quantities when first introduced, something like that might have happened. After all...Pontiac started selling GTO's with 2-barrel/regular fuel engines after the competition came out with lesser expensive muscle just to lower the cost of entry into the market. The GTO had lots of competitors after a couple of model years. But the Avanti's competitors were pretty much in the same dollar range...the Buick Riviera, Pontiac Grand Prix, Ford Thunderbird...plus they were bigger cars as well. That's a fairly rarified market and the Avanti doesn't fit into it squarely but it does in price. Actually...another competitor that belongs in that group is another Studebaker...the GT Hawk. They more or less make up the contemporary personal luxury class but again...the Avanti is more of a touring car and somewhat not a direct fit with them. Studebaker did offer the quiet muffler option for those who didn't want the noise.

As far as American cars go during that era, the Avanti is neither fish nor fowl...it really stands in a class of its own. It doesn't fit comfortably in the personal luxury class nor is it a sports car or the soon to be called muscle car class. While it has many characteristics of what would become the pony car class after the Mustang was introduced...long hood, short rear deck design...it was too expensive to be part of that. Again...it stood on its own and maybe that worked against it, even outside of the production problems that doomed it. Studebaker promoted it as a performance car...the Bonnevllle tests backed that up...but its outdated chassis worked against it as a road car or racing other than in a straight line.

A $3500 Avanti is a tantalizing concept, but based on Studebaker's cost structure, I can't see merely installing a less expensive 259 engine would drop the list price by a grand. It would take wholesale gutting the car's appointments to reduce the retail. Like the 3-speed Avantis, they probably would have been unloved. Chevrolet kept the 3-speed manual as the base transmission until 1969 or '70 and few were sold...no matter how rare they are, no one wants them except to pull it out and install something else...a base for a resto-mod.

We'll never know.
Good analysis and plenty of food for thought. It's too bad that we're engaged in this topic in a thread that started out mostly concerned with duals and 4-bbl carbs. Not your fault -- we all are guilty of it. So I will go ahead and pile on by adding a bit of other fodder.
1) There were plenty of rumors in the automotive press that Stude was going out of business. Definitely a downer for potential customers.
2) The Avanti's styling was controversial -- many liked it, but many others did not (I did not then, but do now). There were three other cars in the "personal" class that were both more conventionally (and very attractively) styled during the 63 model year that cost about the same as the Avanti: Thunderbird, Riviera, and Grand Prix. (In fact, the Riviera is often listed [sometimes along with the Avanti] as one of the ten best-looking American cars of all time). These were tough competition, and were built by big companies that weren't in danger of going out of business.
3) "There's no substitute for cubic inches." It may never have been true, but a lot of us believed it. A 289 with a supercharger was simply not considered to be in the same league as a 421, 425 or 429.
4) I'm old enough to have test-driven a new Avanti in 1963, as did my then-roommate. It was impressive, but the dealer only had one demo model (ref your comments above about the Avanti's early production problems), while the Buick deaer had four or five Rivieras on the lot. And frankly,the Avanti was not as impressive as the Riviera with a 425 and two 4-bbls. My roommate ended up buying a Riviera and kept it for many years. I went another way and bought a used Impala convertible -- because I wanted a convertible (but that's a different story).

SN-60
02-04-2014, 07:49 PM
Great insight guys...and my apoligies for 'swerving' this thread!:)

Gunslinger
02-04-2014, 08:10 PM
Good analysis and plenty of food for thought. It's too bad that we're engaged in this topic in a thread that started out mostly concerned with duals and 4-bbl carbs. Not your fault -- we all are guilty of it. So I will go ahead and pile on by adding a bit of other fodder.
1) There were plenty of rumors in the automotive press that Stude was going out of business. Definitely a downer for potential customers.
2) The Avanti's styling was controversial -- many liked it, but many others did not (I did not then, but do now). There were three other cars in the "personal" class that were both more conventionally (and very attractively) styled during the 63 model year that cost about the same as the Avanti: Thunderbird, Riviera, and Grand Prix. (In fact, the Riviera is often listed [sometimes along with the Avanti] as one of the ten best-looking American cars of all time). These were tough competition, and were built by big companies that weren't in danger of going out of business.
3) "There's no substitute for cubic inches." It may never have been true, but a lot of us believed it. A 289 with a supercharger was simply not considered to be in the same league as a 421, 425 or 429.
4) I'm old enough to have test-driven a new Avanti in 1963, as did my then-roommate. It was impressive, but the dealer only had one demo model (ref your comments above about the Avanti's early production problems), while the Buick deaer had four or five Rivieras on the lot. And frankly,the Avanti was not as impressive as the Riviera with a 425 and two 4-bbls. My roommate ended up buying a Riviera and kept it for many years. I went another way and bought a used Impala convertible -- because I wanted a convertible (but that's a different story).

The Avanti's style was "controversial"...an understatement. It is a polarizing design...people either love it or hate it...few in between. Personally, I think it's one of the boldest and beautiful automotive designs ever. I was a kid when the Avanti first came out and was simply stunned by it and that hasn't changed.

During those years my dad owned and edited a local newspaper. His personal policy was as much as possible to buy anything he needed from his advertisers...it was simply good business. When he wanted to buy his first new car as opposed to always having used cars, he wanted a '63 Buick Riviera...but the local area Buick dealer didn't advertise with him. He went to the Pontiac dealer and bought a new '63 Grand Prix. I don't know if he ever considered a Studebaker but I don't believe the closest Stude dealer placed ads with him. Not that it mattered...the Grand Prix was demolished in a collision when had only 2000 miles on it.

Your other points...spot on. The Avanti had many things going against it which were no reflection of the car itself but more of the contemporary auto industry as a whole and how cars were marketed. In retrospect it's a wonder the car was ever built at all in any numbers. It was born of desperation during desperate financial times for Studebaker. The dice were rolled and it came up snake-eyes for Studebaker. We're very fortunate that there was someone like Nate Altman to pick up the pieces and keep the car going.

SN-60
02-04-2014, 08:23 PM
Yes, When one talks about a major personal impact on the story of the Avanti automobile, Nate Altman stands right up there with Sherwood Egbert. Talk about determination! Too bad for Avanti (and us) Nate couldn't have 'stayed around' a little longer.

63t-cab
02-04-2014, 08:49 PM
I don't know Ed :confused:, I hear tell it would have been pathetically stupid to even remotely consider such an idea :mad: !

Gunslinger,...Your points are all well taken on this 'Base Avanti' idea. Let's face it.....women buy a lot of new cars. If Studebaker could have brought out an Avanti in the $3500.00 range, with a quiet, smooth idling 259 CI engine and automatic transmission, I think that Studebaker Dealers would have had to hire armed guards to keep the customers away....and a lot of those eager customers would have been women! (Like You say, if they could have produced the fiberglass bodies in sufficient enough quantities...which they at first couldn't).
The hot 'R' engines appealed to the guys, but probably not so much to the women at the time. The standard R1/three speed stick model was something that no one really wanted, but a 259 with the powershift transmission (with the regular low-stall torque converter), quiet exhaust system, coupled to a 3.07 read end (with power steering of course.)....would have had huge appeal to women who wanted to be seen in the very latest in automotive design, and would also be purchased by gents who weren't part of the 'Loud Crowd'!

PackardV8
02-04-2014, 10:51 PM
would have had huge appeal to women who wanted to be seen in the very latest in automotive design,

I'd respectfully say not very many. How many women want to be seen in hot, noisy. uncomfortable cars?

Everyone involved with the Avanti admitted the worst mistake was failure to seal and insulate the firewall and floor. With too-low gearing pouring noise in and poor sealing and lack of insulation pouring heat in, a test drive on a hot day would not sell many women. I know one local owner who spent huge bucks restoring his Avanti and his wife refuses to ride in it at all. "Too hot, too noisy, too uncomfortable."

BTW, I'm a long-time Avanti owner and know well all the good and the bad.

jack vines

jackb
02-05-2014, 09:12 AM
.....I know today that women assist in 80% of "all" vehicle purchases....what was their impact in 1963 ? I'd venture 20% - unlikely a real money market factor in car design.....The Avanti is/was not a Lark. I don't know what impact they had on the 2nd car purchase for the family.....I doubt very much...Except maybe for color, I can't remember any households where the women made a significant impact on car purchase.....definitely not trucks, unlike today....

rkapteyn
02-05-2014, 10:57 AM
I wonder why people think that the 259 was cheaper than a 289?
Same engine different pistons and crank.
The 259 is a better engine.longer life ,no domed pistons that blow holes in them etc.(except "R" engines)
The stigma that your Studebaker has to have a 289 is stupid.
The later "C" cab trucks with 289 engines for over the road tractors were a disaster.
Trucking companies asked for Detroit diesel engines in Studebaker trucks.


Robert Kapteyn

StudeNorm
02-05-2014, 01:22 PM
The quiet tone exhaust shown in my Avanti parts manual reminds me a lot of the dual exhaust system my muffler guy built for my '66 Cruiser with 350 Hi-output Chevy engine. He used turbo style mufflers and 2 inch pipes. One thing he didn't have to fight was power steering hoses as my car had standard steering. The cross-over pipe was another thing Studebaker put on the Avanti quiet duals and my guy also included. I didn't realize how much of a difference this made until I needed to remove it for a tranny swap and lost 6 mph at the top end. 136 mph flat out down to 130mph.

If Studebaker had supplied more demo cars with the quiet tone exhaust they might have appealed to a few more people, but that wouldn't have fixed anything else.

I may look into replacing the glass-pack exhaust in my Avanti with a factory style quiet-tone exhaust in the near future. Those turbo mufflers do sound quite sweet!

StudeRich
02-05-2014, 01:46 PM
/Cut/I wonder why people think that the 259 was cheaper than a 289?
Same engine different pistons and crank./Cut/Robert Kapteyn

I really never heard anyone mention anything about Cheaper, when referring to a 259, but YES it's original cost was $40.00 less than the optional 289.

I think what most people in the Day were thinking was bigger engine more Fuel, we know that it makes very little to NO difference, not nearly as much as a 4 Brl. with a heavy foot!

If you are talking about rebuild costs the 289 Pistons have always been a bit higher priced than 259, not a big deal.
And the cost of buying a used 289 is always much more because of the desirability factor, more stroke & C.I.D. = more Torque and more seat of the pants, low end go power! :!:

Andy R.
02-05-2014, 02:13 PM
Building a Scotsman Avanti would have been a dumb idea. :ohmy: Why not a 170 "6" Cyl.? :woot: [/COLOR][/B][/B][/COLOR]

As a hypothetical - to set speed records in more classes!
Agreed - dumb idea.

SN-60
02-05-2014, 05:34 PM
I'd respectfully say not very many. How many women want to be seen in hot, noisy. uncomfortable cars?

Everyone involved with the Avanti admitted the worst mistake was failure to seal and insulate the firewall and floor. With too-low gearing pouring noise in and poor sealing and lack of insulation pouring heat in, a test drive on a hot day would not sell many women. I know one local owner who spent huge bucks restoring his Avanti and his wife refuses to ride in it at all. "Too hot, too noisy, too uncomfortable."

BTW, I'm a long-time Avanti owner and know well all the good and the bad.

jack vines

The 'hypothetical' Studebaker Avanti I describe would take care of the 'Noisy'...and the mild mannered 259 CI might be a slightly 'cooler' runner!

Packard8
02-05-2014, 07:45 PM
I'd respectfully say not very many. How many women want to be seen in hot, noisy. uncomfortable cars?

Everyone involved with the Avanti admitted the worst mistake was failure to seal and insulate the firewall and floor. With too-low gearing pouring noise in and poor sealing and lack of insulation pouring heat in, a test drive on a hot day would not sell many women. I know one local owner who spent huge bucks restoring his Avanti and his wife refuses to ride in it at all. "Too hot, too noisy, too uncomfortable."

BTW, I'm a long-time Avanti owner and know well all the good and the bad.

jack vines

From a marketing standpoint, the Avanti was a solution looking for a problem in the 1963 market. In showroom stock configuration it was not as quick as the Stingray or XKE and certainly the chassis, suspension and handling were dated in comparison.

In the Personal Luxury market it was competing with the Olds Starfire, Pontiac Grand Prix, Ford Thunderbird and Buick Rivera….all of which were head and shoulders above regarding ride, comfort and amenities. If the typical woman of the ‘60’s had the chance to test drive all of the above, I suspect the Avanti would have been the last choice.

One writer had it right when he said “The Avanti is the largest piece of sculpture any of us is ever likely to own”.

SN-60
02-05-2014, 08:14 PM
As a hypothetical - to set speed records in more classes!
Agreed - dumb idea.

I agree Andy, the 170 '6' would not have been practical. (although I feel that You could have thought of a better adjective than 'DUMB'!) Anyway, the '6' would be too tall and too long to fit into an Avanti engine compartment without major modifications.:(

Gunslinger
02-05-2014, 09:16 PM
.....I know today that women assist in 80% of "all" vehicle purchases....what was their impact in 1963 ? I'd venture 20% - unlikely a real money market factor in car design.....The Avanti is/was not a Lark. I don't know what impact they had on the 2nd car purchase for the family.....I doubt very much...Except maybe for color, I can't remember any households where the women made a significant impact on car purchase.....definitely not trucks, unlike today....

One thing I learned with affiliated with an RV business was that the woman is more concerned about colors, layouts and appointments. The mechanical and technical items were far more important to the man. Outside of that, if momma ain't happy then nobody's happy.

Besides...I've always felt that buying an Avanti was an emotional decision, not a practical one. One wants it for the design first and practicality last. Everything in between is optional.

SN-60
02-05-2014, 10:06 PM
I wonder why people think that the 259 was cheaper than a 289?
Same engine different pistons and crank.
The 259 is a better engine.longer life ,no domed pistons that blow holes in them etc.(except "R" engines)
The stigma that your Studebaker has to have a 289 is stupid.
The later "C" cab trucks with 289 engines for over the road tractors were a disaster.
Trucking companies asked for Detroit diesel engines in Studebaker trucks.


Robert Kapteyn

I absolutely agree....the 259 was the finest V8 engine that Studebaker ever made. (But don't tell that to the 'Loud Crowd'!);)

SN-60
02-07-2014, 05:45 PM
From a marketing standpoint, the Avanti was a solution looking for a problem in the 1963 market. In showroom stock configuration it was not as quick as the Stingray or XKE and certainly the chassis, suspension and handling were dated in comparison.

In the Personal Luxury market it was competing with the Olds Starfire, Pontiac Grand Prix, Ford Thunderbird and Buick Rivera….all of which were head and shoulders above regarding ride, comfort and amenities. If the typical woman of the ‘60’s had the chance to test drive all of the above, I suspect the Avanti would have been the last choice.



The Ford Thunderbird and the 'new for '63' Buick Riviera were the Studebaker Avanti's closest equivalents. The Pontiac Grand Prix and the Oldsmobile Starfire were COMPLETELY different car types!

Packard8
02-07-2014, 08:08 PM
The Ford Thunderbird and the 'new for '63' Buick Riviera were the Studebaker Avanti's closest equivalents. The Pontiac Grand Prix and the Oldsmobile Starfire were COMPLETELY different car types!

I guess everyone has a right to their own opinion. Personally I give more weight to published professional automotive writers who put all four cars I mentioned in the “Personal Luxury Car” category.

https://collectorcarmarket.com/content/profiles/olds_starfire_61-66/1961-66_Oldsmobile_Starfire_pg1.html

http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/2007/02/01/hmn_feature10.html

I would also include the pre 1962 Chrysler 300 letter cars and the 1955-56 Continental Mk II, although they predated the Avanti.

YMMV

studegary
02-08-2014, 12:00 PM
Of the three people that were relatives or close personal friends, that passed on the 1963 Avanti due to waits or other reasons, two bought new Corvettes and my sister bought a new 1963 Thunderbird.