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View Full Version : Packard Hawk at Mecum Kissimmee



hausdok
01-25-2014, 10:46 AM
A P.H. goes on the block in about an hour and a half at Kissimmee (Currently Lot #45 the P.H. is Lot #97.1). It's described as red with a new interior and wire wheels and radials. I suspect it's the same one that was for sale in Ohio for a couple of years before it sold for a little over a year ago. That one had a new interior and radial tires with chrome spoked wheels and a black top. There is no picture on the site so I guess we'll see.

SN-60
01-25-2014, 11:00 AM
I suspect 'Big Bucks'!!

hausdok
01-25-2014, 12:56 PM
It sold for $80,000.

If it's the one that was for sale for so long in Ohio it's had the roof and the faux continental spare cover repainted to match the rest of the car.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31751&d=1390676046

31752

SN-60
01-25-2014, 01:06 PM
Might be a different PH. This one's engine colors were all wrong....but overall the car sure was pretty!

studegary
01-25-2014, 03:51 PM
It sold for $80,000.



I thought that the high bid was $80,000, but it did not sell, at least on the auction block. The vehicles that do not sell on the block go to special area where negotiations continue and some sales are made.

hausdok
01-25-2014, 07:31 PM
Hi Gary,

You could be right, I was on the phone with a prospective client at the time trying to juggle my appointment book, the phone and the mouse while looking at the screen. I can't recall if the gavel came down on "sold" or "closed." I'll check the results and get back here.

Moments later......You are right Gary. It did not sell. It's listed on the Mecum site as High Bid: $80,000 so I guess if anyone has a little bit of spare coin in their pocket they can contact the seller and see if they can hit his reserve price.

FYI I saw that vehicle announced for the Mecum action about a month ago and I contacted Mecum for more information and asked for pictures. I got an answer back on January 6 from a dhoffman@mecumauctions where they told me they didn't have the VIN number or any pictures and said that they'd reach out to the seller and get back to me. I never heard another word.

It kind of bothered me that they didn't have any photos or other information. It later occurred to me that perhaps the seller hangs out here and the reason that there was no information available is that he didn't want the car picked apart here, where other S-P folks who might be interested in buying would see it, for fear criticisms here might cause folks to keep their offers low. Folks here, including me, have been a little brutal here with criticism of cars at auctions and on Ebay and CL. If that's why the seller held that info back I guess one couldn't blame him/her.

SN-60
01-26-2014, 12:19 AM
Hi Gary,

You could be right, I was on the phone with a prospective client at the time trying to juggle my appointment book, the phone and the mouse while looking at the screen. I can't recall if the gavel came down on "sold" or "closed." I'll check the results and get back here.

Moments later......You are right Gary. It did not sell. It's listed on the Mecum site as High Bid: $80,000 so I guess if anyone has a little bit of spare coin in their pocket they can contact the seller and see if they can hit his reserve price.

FYI I saw that vehicle announced for the Mecum action about a month ago and I contacted Mecum for more information and asked for pictures. I got an answer back on January 6 from a dhoffman@mecumauctions where they told me they didn't have the VIN number or any pictures and said that they'd reach out to the seller and get back to me. I never heard another word.

It kind of bothered me that they didn't have any photos or other information. It later occurred to me that perhaps the seller hangs out here and the reason that there was no information available is that he didn't want the car picked apart here, where other S-P folks who might be interested in buying would see it, for fear criticisms here might cause folks to keep their offers low. Folks here, including me, have been a little brutal here with criticism of cars at auctions and on Ebay and CL. If that's why the seller held that info back I guess one couldn't blame him/her.

I understand why it would bother You that Mecum never got back with that Packard Hawk info. But I must say that I see a big 'Red Flag' if the owner of this car, or ANY car, actually avoided displaying or discussing it here on this forum, for fear one of us would honestly question something about the car, thereby lowering his profit.

hausdok
01-26-2014, 02:07 AM
Why a red flag?

Let's say I buy a Stude somewhere and I fix it up. Maybe it's not perfect but it's mechanically and structurally sound and I'm happy with it. Maybe I think I've done a good job. Then I decide to sell it and I list it with an auction company and I put a really fair reserve on it. Within an hour or two of it being listed, someone here sees the ad, alerts the brethren and then the nit picking starts. Maybe there's a fellow that sees my stude in the auction catalog and he likes what the car looks like. He doesn't know jack about Studes though. He decides to get on the net and do a little research. He googles the model that I'm selling and WHAM, he finds the discussion wherein everyone here is nit picking every little item on my car. Now, to you guys here, your criticisms might not seem like much and you might not in your own mind expect those little things to lower the value much - you might even state that here on the forum. However, that fellow isn't you - he isn't familiar with Studes. He loves the look of the car and he really wants to buy it, but those trivial little mole hills you are picking at look like mountains to him. Now, instead of bidding on my car he's bidding on someone else's car; or, if he does bid on my car maybe he low balls the heck out of me, forcing me to either take off the reserve or return home with the car unsold and some auction fees to pay.

That's be a bad day, especially if the car was pretty decent and I'd priced it fairly.

Bill Pressler
01-26-2014, 05:35 AM
What seems like nit-picking to some is simply being honest and informative to others.

Is it better to say 'Shhh! Don't tell anybody about that' and allow the prospective buyer to think it's as-built-by-Studebaker? I don't know. I'm big on full-disclosure.

JDP
01-26-2014, 06:29 AM
What seems like nit-picking to some is simply being honest and informative to others.

Is it better to say 'Shhh! Don't tell anybody about that' and allow the prospective buyer to think it's as-built-by-Studebaker? I don't know. I'm big on full-disclosure.


That happened many years ago after the fact. A lady paid over 50K for a 57 Golden Hawk "show Car" at a Kruse auction. It had lots of GT Hawk add-ons like the seats and so on.They even had a letter from a ex Studebaker dealer documenting the "history" of the car. We discussed the car here or on the news group and the lady got wind of it and tried to recover from Kruse for the obvious misrepresentation.

SN-60
01-26-2014, 07:38 AM
Why a red flag?

Let's say I buy a Stude somewhere and I fix it up. Maybe it's not perfect but it's mechanically and structurally sound and I'm happy with it. Maybe I think I've done a good job. Then I decide to sell it and I list it with an auction company and I put a really fair reserve on it. Within an hour or two of it being listed, someone here sees the ad, alerts the brethren and then the nit picking starts. Maybe there's a fellow that sees my stude in the auction catalog and he likes what the car looks like. He doesn't know jack about Studes though. He decides to get on the net and do a little research. He googles the model that I'm selling and WHAM, he finds the discussion wherein everyone here is nit picking every little item on my car. Now, to you guys here, your criticisms might not seem like much and you might not in your own mind expect those little things to lower the value much - you might even state that here on the forum. However, that fellow isn't you - he isn't familiar with Studes. He loves the look of the car and he really wants to buy it, but those trivial little mole hills you are picking at look like mountains to him. Now, instead of bidding on my car he's bidding on someone else's car; or, if he does bid on my car maybe he low balls the heck out of me, forcing me to either take off the reserve or return home with the car unsold and some auction fees to pay.

That's be a bad day, especially if the car was pretty decent and I'd priced it fairly.

hausdok...You are obviously 'Pro-Seller', whereas I am obviously 'Pro-Buyer'. That's OK..to each his own! But let Me toss out an idea that I do not think You've thought of.....What if the 'nit-pickers' as You call them notice something about the vehicle or its history that the seller hasn't listed in his ad.....something that actually INCREASES the value of the vehicle,....Believe Me, that very thing happened recently with a friend of Mine's sale of a 1964 Studebaker Avanti! No, in My eyes the 'Open Book Policy' is the ONLY way to go!

Packard8
01-26-2014, 11:24 AM
That happened many years ago after the fact. A lady paid over 50K for a 57 Golden Hawk "show Car" at a Kruse auction. It had lots of GT Hawk add-ons like the seats and so on.They even had a letter from a ex Studebaker dealer documenting the "history" of the car. We discussed the car here or on the news group and the lady got wind of it and tried to recover from Kruse for the obvious misrepresentation.

If that's the same "Show Hawk" from Northern CA, it was at a local SDC meet years ago. GT seats & dash, remote oil filter, aftermarket A/C etc. The then owner swore it was all "factory". Fred Fox was at the meet and when asked about the authenticity he just smiled like a true gentleman.

SN-60
01-26-2014, 11:44 AM
If that's the same "Show Hawk" from Northern CA, it was at a local SDC meet years ago. GT seats & dash, remote oil filter, aftermarket A/C etc. The then owner swore it was all "factory". Fred Fox was at the meet and when asked about the authenticity he just smiled like a true gentleman.

A good example of a Studebaker that should have been shown and discussed here on this forum.....We could have saved that lady THOUSANDS!;)

StudeDave57
01-26-2014, 11:58 AM
A good example of a Studebaker that should have been shown and discussed here on this forum.....We could have saved that lady THOUSANDS! ;)

Re-read John's post Ed- we DID discuss that car here.
Other stuff happened as well, but you have read John's post.

edited to add-
I believe posts 10 & 12 are talking about the same car, yes.
That's how I remember it.
Craig will find it and/or correct our memories...




StudeDave '57 :cool:

hausdok
01-26-2014, 12:01 PM
Hi,

Yeah, I guess in this case I am pro-seller; with my argument anyway.

FWIW I'm actually very pro buyer and I do believe in full disclosure. I do pro buyer week in and week out year after year for a living - I inspect homes for buyers.

You want to talk about full disclosure? I could go on for days describing some of the lowdown and dirty underhanded stuff I've seen sellers and their agents try to pull to move houses. It never seems to end; as soon as one trick gets revealed to the public at large they come up with another. I'm known to agents around town as a "deal killer." That's OK though, 'cuz I get better than 95% of my referrals from past clients and that keeps me busy enough that I regularly have to turn down folks whose schedule I can't accommodate because I'm booked too far out.

I sure didn't intend to be the seller's advocate; I had just tried to rationalize in my own mind why a buyer who was being honest about his car might not want to put that information out there until the car rolled off the trailer at the auction. That was a theory that seemed to fit. Heck, maybe the seller's reasons really have nothing to do with my theory; it was just something I'd pondered and shared.

SN-60
01-26-2014, 12:05 PM
Re-read John's post Ed- we DID discuss that car here.
Other stuff happened as well, but you have read John's post.

edited to add-
I believe posts 10 & 12 are talking about the same car, yes.
That's how I remember it.
Craig will find it and/or correct our memories...




StudeDave '57 :cool:

Thanks Dave, always nice to here from You!;)

studegary
01-26-2014, 04:51 PM
Re-read John's post Ed- we DID discuss that car here.
Other stuff happened as well, but you have read John's post.

edited to add-
I believe posts 10 & 12 are talking about the same car, yes.
That's how I remember it.
Craig will find it and/or correct our memories...




StudeDave '57 :cool:

This time, I disagree with you. I think that YOU need to reread John's post (#10). It clearly states; "...after the fact..."
The way that I remember it - the lady paid a lot at a big time auction thinking that the car was correct - she then tried to sell it - that is when it got discussed on the Forum - the lady saw the Forum and tried to get money back from the auction company that she bought the car from (of course, that doesn't work) - I believe that she sold the Hawk at a loss.

Washtubman
01-26-2014, 05:06 PM
It's the old addage "Buyer Beware". If one is going to plunk down cash for a vehicle, they should do their homework "before" buying the car.

StudeDave57
01-26-2014, 05:06 PM
I know what I read, and I know what I typed.
I didn't think it was complicated enough to have to explain, but I will- once.

Did we talk about the car? YUP.

Did other stuff happen? YUP.

Did I say it all happened at the same time? NOPE.


That was easy. :yeahright: :whome:



StudeDave '57 :cool:

hausdok
02-07-2014, 05:59 PM
Update: So, the car did not sell. The buyer turned down an offer for more than I've seen one sell for over the past two years. His reserve target was substantially more. Since he hasn't posted anything about it here, I assume he still doesn't want that information widely dispersed so I'm not posting what the reserve was here. He is now entertaining offers again. If anyone is interested, the figure he is looking for is somewhere between $60,000 and $130,000.

Contact me by PM or via email at hausdok@msn.com and I can put you in touch with someone re. that P.H.

SN-60
02-07-2014, 06:27 PM
Update: So, the car did not sell. The buyer turned down an offer for more than I've seen one sell for over the past two years. His reserve target was substantially more. Since he hasn't posted anything about it here, I assume he still doesn't want that information widely dispersed so I'm not posting what the reserve was here. He is now entertaining offers again. If anyone is interested, the figure he is looking for is somewhere between $60,000 and $130,000.

Contact me by PM or via email at hausdok@msn.com and I can put you in touch with someone re. that P.H.

So 'Old Catfish Face' is finally gaining some respect eh?

arthurc1946
02-07-2014, 07:05 PM
Talk about BUYER BEWARE Seller should Check/See/KNOW what he's selling.Please read my post about 63R1 onE-BAY

StudeDave57
02-07-2014, 07:08 PM
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w143/StudeDave/My%20Rides/hellothere.jpg

jnormanh
02-07-2014, 07:51 PM
The usual rule to be understood is caveat emptor...let the buyer beware. In other words buy only what you are certain is fair value.

So, if a car is offered as "factory original", it's really best if the buyer has the knowledge to know whether that claim is true or not, or, to have it inspected by someone who does know. To spend big bucks based only on the sellers claim is just plain foolish. Yes, you can always claim later that there was misrepresentation, but that's trying to close the gate after the horse has run.

The world is full of fakes, everything from thousand dollar cars to multiple-million dollar artworks. TH ere are very few things I would pay top dollar for - Bugeye Sprites and Winchester shotguns...and in the case of a high dollar Winchester, I'd still get an expert.

In the world of best of the best, there are NO bargains...none...ever. Forget the unknown original R3 which has been hidden away for 50 years and can be yours for just $50k, cash, today. It's just like the unfired $25K Winchester model 21 Grand American which has been in a safe since new...it just plain does not exist.

There's a fair price for everything. Anything less than fair is always a hoax.

hausdok
02-07-2014, 09:19 PM
Huh,

My theory is starting to look more and more realistic.

You guys act like the seller was hiding something. Maybe he's just not willing to have his business dealings analyzed and re-analyzed and picked apart by those who don't have any interest in purchasing what he's selling anyway.

Can't say I blame the guy for keeping mum and only wanting to deal with serious buyers like those who showed up at the auction.

.

studegary
02-08-2014, 11:21 AM
Huh,

My theory is starting to look more and more realistic.

You guys act like the seller was hiding something. Maybe he's just not willing to have his business dealings analyzed and re-analyzed and picked apart by those who don't have any interest in purchasing what he's selling anyway.

Can't say I blame the guy for keeping mum and only wanting to deal with serious buyers like those who showed up at the auction.

.

I believe that that open, public auction with many bidders in person, online and on the telephone, established the current market price for that particular Hawk. If the seller has a MUCH higher number in mind, I think that he is the unrealistic one and should not have bothered to enter the car in the auction. I wonder what the seller is basing his price on. It may be a desire (means nothing) or what he has spent on the Hawk (means even less). Does he have any comparables to base his price on? Do not go by price guides, especially on a car like this that has VERY few retail transactions that can be documented.

vmania
02-09-2014, 06:37 AM
After reading this post am I to assume that my 57 GH, that's getting a frame-off resto from Westmoreland Studebaker, will be worth more money due to the fact that Craig restored it?....

studegary
02-09-2014, 12:31 PM
After reading this post am I to assume that my 57 GH, that's getting a frame-off resto from Westmoreland Studebaker, will be worth more money due to the fact that Craig restored it?....

Not due to the fact that Craig did it, but rather due to the quality of work accomplished.
I am sure that it will be a fine car, but I also believe that the market value will be less than the cost of the Hawk plus the restoration cost.
You restore a Hawk because you want to and plan to keep the car for a period of time, not for a profit motive.

vmania
02-10-2014, 06:34 AM
I agree 100% Gary!!....Wanted to bring back what I feel is an incredibly beautiful car....

RareBird
02-24-2014, 12:55 PM
Mike,
This is the same PH with a Avanti engine that sold 4 or 5 years ago at auction for 74k. Until last year it was the highest one ever sold. Two went to auction last year and sold for 90k and 88k. Right after the second one sold my wife Julie wanted to know when the next auction was :ohmy:

StudeRich
02-24-2014, 01:59 PM
Oh, oh J.D. better check out your morning Coffee! :lol:

StudeRich
02-24-2014, 02:12 PM
/Cut/But let Me toss out an idea that I do not think You've thought of.....What if the 'nit-pickers' as You call them notice something about the vehicle or its history that the seller hasn't listed in his ad.....something that actually INCREASES the value of the vehicle,....Believe Me, that very thing happened recently with a friend of Mine's sale of a 1964 Studebaker Avanti! No, in My eyes the 'Open Book Policy' is the ONLY way to go!

I can't believe I am saying this but here goes, Ed could have a point! :ohmy: :D

I am sure you all remember the Nice 4 Speed Laguna Blue '64 Daytona Convert that my Friend up here in the Northwest sold to a Now New Forum Member back East, it was a TW Cover Car.

Well what if the seller had posted the Serial Number here and we all found out it was Andy Granetelli's Wife's Car, BEFORE the sale? :ohmy: Think about that one! :rolleyes:

SN-60
02-24-2014, 04:52 PM
I can't believe I am saying this but here goes, Ed could have a point! :ohmy: :D

I am sure you all remember the Nice 4 Speed Laguna Blue '64 Daytona Convert that my Friend up here in the Northwest sold to a Now New Forum Member back East, it was a TW Cover Car.

Well what if the seller had posted the Serial Number here and we all found out it was Andy Granetelli's Wife's Car, BEFORE the sale? :ohmy: Think about that one! :rolleyes:


Good point! (And thanks StudeRich, I always new that You were a 'closet' SN-60 fan!!!!!!):!!: