0w-30 Alternative to 15w-40 oil

[63Avanti]

In researching an article on what oils you can still buy that will meet all your Studebaker's needs, I came up with the advice below. Since then I have researched after market additives, and have a formula at the URL below on how to modify less "robust" oils to recommended levels.

But more interesting is that I was researching my old friends, the Euro Turbo-Diesel oils. These are more exotic, as the demands on these high revving diesels far exceed common US diesels. Originally, I did not pay much attention to them. Out of curiosity, I did a fora check and found that at least one is an excellent oil for your Studebaker.

0w-30 !! ELF CRV. This is rated at vw 506.1, no North American API, and has additive packages equal to the best CI-4/Plus. If your seals can take it, you will be amazed by this oil. I was extremely pleased with this oil when I switched to it from Mobile 1 Truck and SUV CI-4 5w-40. I cannot wait until I get my seals to behave so I can use up my stockpile left over from my VW TDI (truck used it as a crash barrier).

Where to get it?
Like most of the oils I use, I found a vendor, and ordered it. Go to TDIClub.com, and check the adds, or put a wanted ad. I have also found it on eBay, and google.


previous posting:
Good news after 2 months of research and shopping around...

If you use CI-4 or CI-4Plus, oil, you DO NOT need additives.
The November Issue of the Avanti Mag will have an extensive article on
this.

You can still find CI-4/CI-4Plus oils out there, but NOT at big box/
auto stores. In commercial and rural areas, you can easily find the
older stuff. I did a quick survey of VOA/PDS in preparation for the
article for the November Avanti mag. Below is a list of what I have
found "on the shelves" and meeting the criteria from the article.

>>>>After the research, I went to my local NAPA and bought the entire store stock of NAPA Universal Fleet Plus, 15w-40, CI-4Plus, (high zinc/TBN/calcium). At $9.55 per gallon, 2.39 per quart, it is tough to beat!<<<<

"Good Oils" from July 2007 study

> 15w-40 CI-4/Plus "Dino"

Best: Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue Classic, Pennzoil Long Life,
Chevron Delo 400 (not "LE"), Kendall Super D 3, 76 Guardol QLT
Good: NAPA Universal Fleet Plus, Caterpillar DEO, John Deere Plus-50,
Lucas 15/40 Magnum,
Satisfactory: Castrol GTX Diesel, Motorcraft Super Duty, Pilot Premium
HD

> 5w-40 CI-4/Plus Synthetic

Best: Shell Rotella T Synthetic, Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue Syn
Classic, Red Line Diesel Synthetic

most current info is at http://sterkel.org/avanti/documents/...assic_cars.htm
especially if you insist on looking at additives, click on "Virgin Oil Analyses".


Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")

http://sterkel.org/avanti

1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

[Samjoe]

Well thats all well and good for nice tight modern motors. But 0 weight is getting a little thin for most Studebaker motors. The lower number is what your oil base stock is.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question164.htm

Add into that, 40 year old motors weren't that tight to begin with.
You'll be getting great gas mileage with the thin oil, but I'll bet you won't have any oil pressure when the motors warm.
Malcom

[63Avanti]

yep,
that is why I will wait before using my precious imported ELF. May never use it for the reason you state.

quote:Originally posted by Samjoe

Well thats all well and good for nice tight modern motors. But 0 weight is getting a little thin for most Studebaker motors. The lower number is what your oil base stock is.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question164.htm

Add into that, 40 year old motors weren't that tight to begin with.
You'll be getting great gas mileage with the thin oil, but I'll bet you won't have any oil pressure when the motors warm.
Malcom

Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")

http://sterkel.org/avanti

1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

[HammondA100]

The AMSOIL 5W40 European 100% Synthetic is designed for VW 505.01 for the VW TDI diesels (high pressure fuel pump) and has the high ZDDP and is available locally there in DFW. It also exceeds all the ACEA European standards (not API).
But the AMSOIL AMO 10W40 is CI4 and CI4+ rated. Also the Diesel AME 15W40, HDD 5W30 and ACD 10W30 all have Zinc & Phosporus levels well above 1200ppm per the most recient tech service bulletin.
All oil companies can sell their CI4 for the next 10 years but it's the retailers that limit their shelf space so thus the problem. AMSOIL will have the high ZDDP products available indefinately and what's better it's made in USA.


The problem with the VW 505.01 is it doesnt have the TBN or detergency that the AMO has so a shorter life but it has the film strength to significantly dampen engine vibration not to mention a 10 degree drop in temperature.
As for seals AMSOIL PAO's and diester additives which in many cases actually stops leaks and for the 10 years Ive been using it have never had to add oil due to leaks even in my and my customers Corvairs.

http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/brochures/TSB_Flat_Tappet.pdf

Ches in Sioux Falls, SD
55 Commander Coupe hoping to be ready July 2008

[63Avanti]

Amsoil has gotten itself banned from the VW and many other fora because of the lack of independent certification of the claims made about comformance to 505.1, CI-4 et.al. and the amount of traffic that Amsoil MML dealers filled the forums.

Unless I see non-anecdotal data, and/or independent certification I do not mention Amsoil either positively or negatively.


Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")

http://sterkel.org/avanti

1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

[Dick Steinkamp]

The oil threads are always the longest (and the most opinionated [B)])

I have a TDI with the PD motor that requires 505.01 to maintain the engine warranty. Amsoil (and others) CLAIM to meet this spec, but are not approved by VW. If you run Amsoil in your PD and the engine fails, you are SOL. I don't know if Amsoil (and others) are not PAYING VW enough to get the approval [:0]), or if the oils just are not what they claim to be. In any case, I'll stick with the VW approved 505.01 oils.

The reason the oil in the PD motors is so critical is that VW runs a super high pressure injector pump (30,000 PSI) off the cam. (actually 4 pumps...one for each cylinder). Because of this design, the 505.01 oils MAY be great for our flat tappet older cars since the problem is similar.

[55studeman]

Well I don't like to join or to stir up oil discussions...but I will this time as I see some misunderstandings that are not grounded well, and yep, Dick's right, it's highly opinionated. So how about some facts.

FYI stuff:
1) Engine warranties are not invalidated by using non-OEM oils, upheld by various court decisions BUT the new stuff must match or exceed requirements specified.
2)If there was a problem/dispute, Amsoil has an explicit full guarantee warranty that will replace/repair problems caused by use of their oil, if it is found to be at fault. They've had it for decades, last time I heard, there have been no validated claims (there have been claims but the problems were found to be due to other issues in engines, think Toyota and engine sludging and many other engineering flaws).

Amsoil's really there for making a good product, do your research and find that out for yourself; they're small time (unlike a big oil companty that has lots of customers and volume, if they don't make good stuff..they fail quickly), a family business (always a plus), stands behinds their products, and they've done it for DECADES, and were "first" for synthetic auto-oil a decade or two before the big oil companies...not many companies are this reliable or honest, or as long lasting.

As to Amsoil getting certifications, there are two main issues: 1) (usual problem) OEM manufacturers often won't release their testing methods to other companies or even the "standardization" society, the SAE!!! -That's just wrong. (i.e. They usually come up with "new" machines for testing the new specs, such as the older four-ball wear test that's common now, etc.) 2) Certifications are met, BUT authorization (independent or not) to stamp it on the bottle are too costly for a "smaller" volume company, it'll eat up the small profits that it will make... so for a reliable/honest company that tests it thoroughly (great track record for decades), why not go without certification, they have their own warranty anyway...and so for those who are in the know, they can trust it and get a better deal than buying OEM.

Like anything in life, research it, read, research more, and read more. Take it from a guy that has 3 college degrees and working on two more; don't trust the opinions, search for facts, question stuff, but at some point believe the truth that surfaces and is staring you in the face.

My connection to Amsoil, I started my research into oil in general and amsoil when I was 12 and I'm nearing 30 now. I've got loads of file folders with oil research in a cabinet at home and NO it is not all amsoil. I set out to really learn all I could about oil and did so until I got sick of it. I am an Amsoil dealer but for only ONE reason: to buy for myself and family...now that's trust in a product. I trust them and I have faith, that their products will keep my Stude engines and brand-x engines running longer without issues and longer between rebuilds, and that's worth every penny (pulling engines isn't the funnest of things to do). Point of fact: I DO NOT SELL Amsoil, just in case you didn't get that, I simply buy it for myself.

Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

[Dick Steinkamp]

quote:Originally posted by 55studeman

1) Engine warranties are not invalidated by using non-OEM oils, upheld by various court decisions BUT the new stuff must match or exceed requirements specified.

There are about 20 different oil manufacturers certified to VW's spec 505.01. Amsoil isn't one of them. It may be true that you can beat VW in court, but I'll bet it will cost you over $100 grand to find out.

quote:
2)If there was a problem/dispute, Amsoil has an explicit full guarantee warranty that will replace/repair problems caused by use of their oil, if it is found to be at fault.

True, Amsoil will repair any motor that was damaged by a defective batch of oil.

However, you'll probably be caught between Amsoil's insurers, who will deny a claim because the Oil was not shown to be defective and VW which denies the claim because a non-VW505.01 oil was used.

Experimental use of a non-VW505.01 Oil during the warranty period might work for you. It just doesn't work for me.

[63Avanti]

quote:Originally posted by 55studeman
...
2)If there was a problem/dispute, Amsoil has an explicit full guarantee warranty that will replace/repair problems caused by use of their oil, if it is found to be at fault. They've had it for decades, last time I heard, there have been no validated claims (there have been claims but the problems were found to be due to other issues ...

The "right" to spend 100K to take Amsoil to court does not give me a warm feeling. Like the majority of TDI owners, that "warrenty" was a negative, and a turn off.

again, you will see that I never initiate Amsoil discussions either in a negative or positive context, unless based on independent lab test results. Amsoil's business model creates too much controversy, and clogs the newsgroups and fora.


Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")

http://sterkel.org/avanti

1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

[Swifster]

quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

The oil threads are always the longest (and the most opinionated [B)])

I have a TDI with the PD motor that requires 505.01 to maintain the engine warranty. Amsoil (and others) CLAIM to meet this spec, but are not approved by VW. If you run Amsoil in your PD and the engine fails, you are SOL. I don't know if Amsoil (and others) are not PAYING VW enough to get the approval [:0]), or if the oils just are not what they claim to be. In any case, I'll stick with the VW approved 505.01 oils.

The reason the oil in the PD motors is so critical is that VW runs a super high pressure injector pump (30,000 PSI) off the cam. (actually 4 pumps...one for each cylinder). Because of this design, the 505.01 oils MAY be great for our flat tappet older cars since the problem is similar.

As mentioned, as long as the used meets VW spec, it meets their requirement (whether they were paid or not )

Also keep in mind that VW imports from Europe the Castrol Syntec they use at their dealerships. It is not the same as the US spec oil used here in the states. I've seen & heard of guys running the extended change intervals with the US spec oils and suffering oil related failures because of this.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Valrico, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $1755.45)

[55studeman]

All very good points brought up. I like hearing from the two sides of the coin. Since I haven't kept my head in the oil game recently, due to school, I am not up to date on the particulars surrounding the VW spec. But I'm certainly appreciative to know the specific happenings (20 certified and amsoil isn't one of them) as Dick mentioned, thanks. Again, being speculative, but it could be due to how the certification costs come out, who knows, I'm not Amsoil so I can't speak for them.

All things considered, it comes down to choices, who you trust...I've done my part to research how good their products are and I've placed my trust in them...for now and until something goes awry, as we should with any type of products. Secondly, as part of a fail safe plan, and as a good scientist that I'm trained to be, I double check how my oils are doing with oil analysis at certain intervals...so far so good!! I suggest EVERYONE do oil analysis, regardless if you use conventional oil or synthetics, do it strategically over the course of an oil change interval and see how your oil is holding up. It may be fine, or you may find that you need to change oil sooner or even later, or change to synthetics if you're not on them. You might also find significant wear patterns that alert you to potential problems that could come up. Bottom line, do oil analysis....at least at some point on each vehicle you own, regularly would be great but if not, just do it a couple times over the course of say a year, to see how your engine or tranny or rear axle is doing.

Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

[HammondA100]

[63Avanti]

if anyone was wondering why I never bring up Amsoil in either a positive or negative manner in any auto conversation check above .....


Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")

http://sterkel.org/avanti

1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

[55studeman]

What a good reading, definitely worth my time, Thank you Hammond. Useful information...mostly facts and that's healthy for deciding things. And to Terry, your suggestive that such conversations are not useful and indicative that you're better off if these debates didn't exist. But I think that would be sad if they didn't, since I learned something and others probably did too (good or bad) and that would be sad to think that you didn't learn at least something from reading Hammonds input. Your input would also be appreciated, especially if based on factual evidence, but at this point your holding off and that hurts the rest of the community, since we might learn something from you as well.

For those long, never ending debates, the problem is Closed-mindedness, where people take stances based on opinions (or incorrect factual info) and not true and tested facts. Without give and take and accepting new facts or accepting that one might be wrong, that is where a conversation hits a dead-end and becomes useless. I sure wish that Closed-mindedness didn't exist, we'd all learn so much more, but it does and it hurts conversations (such as why maybe you are witholding), so sometimes you just need to move on but trying at first is always best -give up later.

Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

[63Avanti]

...why I try to avoid starting these discussions.

by my count, we have had 691 lines, 6023 words since my note that there was a 506.1 oil that would work for our cranky Studebakers. (I cheated and used a word count utility). What have we learned?

1. people are very adept at cut/paste from corporate propaganda sites.
2. people can take a notice about a certified 506.1 oil and somehow make it a sales lead for an uncertified 505.1 oil.
3. nearly NOTHING in these 6023 words are relevant to flat tappet Studebaker engines, but go on and on and on about turbo charged diesels and other non-relevant applications

... and you wonder why I try to avoid starting these discussions?


Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")

http://sterkel.org/avanti

1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed