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View Full Version : HFI Installed In Hawk #2; Up & Running Great !



JoeHall
09-15-2013, 10:47 PM
I received the HFI kit Friday, and spent about 10 hours total, yesterday & today, installing it in the 63GT. Drove the car around 60 miles today for test drive. It starts easily (hot or cold), runs smoother, and pulls harder then the Edlebrock carb & Pertronix-Delco I swapped it out with.

For MPG, I am guessing it will get at least as good as before, but probably better. Will let y'all know in a few days.

IMHO, if Stude had stayed in business, they'd probably have had EFI as another of their many industry firsts in the early 1980s, and beat GM by a good five years to the punch :)

Dick Steinkamp
09-15-2013, 10:49 PM
Congrats, Joe!

SN-60
09-15-2013, 10:50 PM
This really is interesting. What would a EFI setup like that cost Joe? (In truth, carbs can be tiresome sometimes!)

JoeHall
09-16-2013, 05:21 PM
This really is interesting. What would a EFI setup like that cost Joe? (In truth, carbs can be tiresome sometimes!)

I got a 10 percent discount, due to this being the 2nd ($1399) kit I've bought from Bill Hamilton. So, the total price including shipping, and fuel line (the only thing needed in addition to the kit) was around $1400.

A Dave T-bow distributor and an AFB clone (Edlebrock) would have cost about half of that, and would still have the same vapor lock related problems inherent with a carb, which the HFI gets rid of.

The car is now transformed into a use-able vehicle, ready for any clime, anyplace. And you don't need to be mechanic savvy to operate it. Just turn the key and go. Just ask my wife :)

Chucks Stude
09-16-2013, 05:41 PM
Pictures, please!

SN-60
09-16-2013, 05:41 PM
I would absolutely love to drive Your Stude GT to feel the difference first hand. Technically, You made a big change here!

StudeDave57
09-16-2013, 06:00 PM
As of about a week ago, Bill is a member of our Forum.
I met him (and his son Joe) on Saturday. They met my IDYSD group not far from his home. We oggled his Internationals while he told us about what we were looking at. There's a picture in one of the IDYSD posts I made this morning...

SN-60
09-16-2013, 06:15 PM
As of about a week ago, Bill is a member of our Forum.
I met him (and his son Joe) on Saturday. They met my IDYSD group not far from his home. We oggled his Internationals while he told us about what we were looking at. There's a picture in one of the IDYSD posts I made this morning...

???????????????????????????

StudeDave57
09-16-2013, 06:20 PM
???????????????????????????

I know, right!?!?!? :ohmy: :woot: :!:
Bill is not only 'local' to me- he is also retired NAVY!!!
Cool points galore.
He mentioned having an 'interest' in Studes, so time will tell where that leads... ;)



StudeDave '57 :cool:

SN-60
09-16-2013, 06:24 PM
I know, right!?!?!? :ohmy: :woot: :!:
Bill is not only 'local' to me- he is also retired NAVY!!!
Cool points galore.
He mentioned having an 'interest' in Studes, so time will tell where that leads... ;) [/SIZ

[SIZE=4]StudeDave '57 :cool:

Dave, I think that Your post is in the wrong thread.

StudeDave57
09-16-2013, 06:28 PM
Dave, I think that Your post is in the wrong thread.
I don't. Bill Hamilton is the guy that Joe got the HFI kit from.
He lives up here, and I met him on Saturday.




StudeDave '57 :cool:

SN-60
09-16-2013, 06:35 PM
I don't. Bill Hamilton is the guy that Joe got the HFI kit from.
He lives up here, and I met him on Saturday.




StudeDave '57 :cool:

OK Dave, I missed 'Bill Hamilton' In Joe's second post.....Sorry about that! SN-60

JoeHall
09-16-2013, 07:01 PM
Pictures, please!
27729 27730 27731 27732 27734

I did not take any pix of this install, but here are some from the first. I am a no muss-no fuss kinda guy, and simply laid the 12-15 wires anywhere they'd reach without touching something they should not, i.e. exhaust or fan. It wound up looking kinda hokey. But Joe Rink installed EFI in his Avanti, and it took a second look or two to even notice it. Same for a guy who installed EFI on his 56J. So please do not let my install job be a reflection on the kit, it can be made to look almost obscure, but I just did not take the time to do so.

The vac advance on the distributor is a "dummy" since it is all electronic and controlled by the ECU.

The intake adapter sits on a 4B manifold, and I used a hand held grinder to modify the manifold to a dual plane, which allows for good flow with the adapter. The TBI itself, flows 670 CFM, and GM used it for 4.3L motors up to 5.7, so it is very compatible with the Stude 289.

The wiring harness on the right half of the pic goes through the firewall and tucks neatly up under the dash, with the ECU laying on top of the AC evaporator. The harness on the left half of the pic is what goes on top of the motor (at least mine did), and looks kinda like an octopus laying there.

57transtar guy
09-16-2013, 08:53 PM
Joe

I spoke with Bill last week and am expecting mine with in a week. I am nervous about the install because of my lack of mechanic knowledge but have enlisted some help so...

I am very excited to hear you did yours in 10 hours because I am also replacing my fuse panel at the same time. Seems like a huge under taking but I have done everything else ( or it seems ) so this is one of the last items. I am a little on the OCD side of neatness so I will take pictures and share during and after.

Could you please post a couple of your current install? Specifically the location and mounting of the brain:)

JoeHall
09-16-2013, 09:11 PM
Joe

I spoke with Bill last week and am expecting mine with in a week. I am nervous about the install because of my lack of mechanic knowledge but have enlisted some help so...

I am very excited to hear you did yours in 10 hours because I am also replacing my fuse panel at the same time. Seems like a huge under taking but I have done everything else ( or it seems ) so this is one of the last items. I am a little on the OCD side of neatness so I will take pictures and share during and after.

Could you please post a couple of your current install? Specifically the location and mounting of the brain:)

I'm glad you are a little OCD on neatness (obviously I am not); pix of yours, once installed will do the kit more justice than mine do. I ran the ECU end of the harness through the firewall (must drill a 2" hole) to put the ECU inside the car. Wrapped in a single layer of cardboard, it nestles out of sight, on top of the AC evaporator, behind the dash, just below the radio. Inside the car was easy to keep neat, and its hard to even spot anything out of the ordinary there. Everything went behind the dash.

Under the hood is hard to keep from looking "busy". I count about 16 connections, running every which way on the motor, from side to side & end to end: coolant temp sensor; throttle position sensor; o2 sensor; VSS; idle control valve; MAP; ICU; epoxy coil & mount; fuel pump wires; TBI injector wires, well you get the idea.

The TBI itself, will almost pass for a 4B carb, nestled under the air cleaner, and the linkage is not difficult to set up. I put an extension on the TBI ear in order to keep gas pedal & linkage geometry as before.

PRELIMINARY STEP ONE: While waiting for the kit, and the truck is still operational, take it to an exhaust shop and have them weld an o2 sensor bung into the exhaust pipe, about 3-4" down from the flange, and pointed down slightly. The passenger side worked best for mine, due to wiring harness orientation. PayLess did the job in about 20 minutes, and only charged $20, including bung and plug. The guy said they often replace them in modern cars when stripped out, so they keep a supply of bungs on hand.
P-STEP TWO: Also, I'd go ahead and set up a fuel return system. Best place to plug into the tank is probably the fuel filler neck about 3-4 inches down. A 90 degree, 1/8" pipe threaded, 5/16" nozzled brass fitting will do the trick.

57transtar guy
09-17-2013, 08:15 PM
Return fuel line was done last week when I pulled the tank for a leak repair.

Didn't think about the O2 sensor so that will get done this weekend for sure.

Received notice today that Bill shipped the system out so if all goes well I will get it next week for the following weekends project.

Stay tuned!

JoeHall
09-17-2013, 09:55 PM
Return fuel line was done last week when I pulled the tank for a leak repair.

Didn't think about the O2 sensor so that will get done this weekend for sure.

Received notice today that Bill shipped the system out so if all goes well I will get it next week for the following weekends project.

Stay tuned!
Best of all, with Bill H. available by phone, you have the best tech support on the planet. He will talk you through any snags you may encounter. But I doubt you will have any problems with the basic install, maybe just the final preliminaries before start-up.

57transtar guy
09-19-2013, 10:08 AM
He has answered every time I've called and even sent some emails late into the night!

Side question... Have you blocked off the center intake on yours? I'm still debating the idea and now is the time to do it. I live in AZ so I'm not worried about the warming up factor of the original design but too many opinions to decipher what's right or wrong.

coyote
09-19-2013, 11:09 AM
I wonder if this would work inside of an R3 airbox?

Hmmmm.....

JoeHall
09-19-2013, 01:02 PM
He has answered every time I've called and even sent some emails late into the night!

Side question... Have you blocked off the center intake on yours? I'm still debating the idea and now is the time to do it. I live in AZ so I'm not worried about the warming up factor of the original design but too many opinions to decipher what's right or wrong.

While I did not block off my heat riser here in KY, if in AZ I would. The heat transfers from the TBI back to the gas tank, and shutting off the heat riser would just leave less heat to transfer.

Speaking of the gas tank, it needs to vent out. As it warms up, the gas expands and the vapors must have somewhere to go. I vented mine through a 1970s vintage charcoal canister located in the engine bay, which is kept vacuumed "clean" by a vacuum line running from the can to a vacuum port on the TBI.

While you don't need heat in the intake for HFI, you need heat in the coolant. I run a 195 thermostat here in both of the Studes with HFI; in AZ, I'd run at least a 180, and maybe a 195. I tried a 180 first, and it does everything better with a 195, i.e. slow the idle down quicker during warm up, and keep it slowed down in cold weather.

Dan White
09-19-2013, 01:58 PM
I wonder if this would work inside of an R3 airbox?

Hmmmm.....

Not sure if this setup would work with turbo/supercharger or not. The old Holley Projection TBI would not. They could not detect the change in air volume coming through the throttle body and would run way too lean at boost. The other problem with TBIs is the injectors may not be able to keep up with the boost and will become a choke point. There are or were some 4bbl TBIs out there but not sure if they are still made or not.

JoeHall
09-19-2013, 03:15 PM
I wonder if this would work inside of an R3 airbox?

Hmmmm.....
That would be a good question for Bill Hamilton (the HFI guy), who recently joined our NG.

Bill, I hope you are reading this :)

Bill USN-1
09-20-2013, 01:36 AM
Hmmm, you guys really go off topic in the threads.;)

From what I have seen the R3 box is a complete sealed box with the carb inside so the entire carb was pressurized from the blower.
The only thing I didn't see a good pick of was the throttle linkage. But if a carb, assuming a 4 bbl is mounted inside then the TBI could also be mounted inside. It would need some work on the linkage to get it all hooked up.

Now for the operational side:
Yes you could run the simple TBI system with mild boost. It wouldn't be the best system to use due to it only using a 1bar map sensor but it could be tuned to work. The difference is any time you are under boost the map sensor will be maxed out and you will be under power enrichment, think of the power valve in a carb. The setting can be manipulated in the chip tuning to adjust when the system enters PE mode.
Fuel pressure is normally another concern when you start increasing the air pressure at the tip of the injector. A simple VAFPR can be used to adjust fuel pressure up as the boost pressure goes up.

Now this is all based on the stock GM TBI system. There are code patches guys have written to allow the use of other inputs and you could also use the Mega squirt ECM with all the rest of the parts still being factory GM.
I develop my system to use factory parts so "if" anything should fail on the road you can walk into any parts store or junk yard and get a drop in replacement.
IMHO that is one of the biggest down sides to the aftermarket and MS systems. You can only get a replacement by carrying one or ordering one. No one will have one on the shelf on Sunday if you break down.

There were many GM applications that used boost but most are MPFI-multi port fuel injection. Multi port is a whole discussion in itself.
On our older designed engines you will not really see much if any difference in MPG or performance between the TBI and the MPFI.
You will see a big difference in reaction from your buddies when you pop the hood.
Keep in mind that the MPFI was designed to over come the low rpm wet intake runners with the carb and TBI system. This would cause droplets of fuel to pool and get sucked in the cylinder at idle and cause a momentary rich condition and it would fail emissions. At least the new emissions standards for manufacturers.
The cost is another factor. With machining and plumbing and additional parts your looking at about twice the cost of a TBI system.

Cross over- Most of my engines don't run them open. If I want the engine to remain stock looking then I use the factory 4bbl air cleaner and run the heat tube down to the manifold for a little preheat in the winter. I'm In WA state so we get a little snow but no extreme cold. I have heard of guys having some icing of the fuel at the throttle blades at low rpm so it won't hurt to run it open.

Did I miss any thing?

Mike Van Veghten
09-20-2013, 10:51 AM
For those uninitiated..... as to some of the comments above...

"Vapor lock" and carburetors "DO NOT" nesessarilly go hand in hand as noted in this thread...!

I've not had a car in my 45+ years of driving in SoCal, had a vapor lock problem. And this includes many, many 100+ degree summer days..! And this also includes the 59 Lark, (259 inch engine), 60 Lark, (259 inch) my 54 Conestoga, (I-6), or my fairly new to me, 54 Champian sedan. (I-6).

Is a fuel injected equiped engine a better way to go, ultimatly yes.
Is it cost effective, on a Stude...not unless it's your daily driver and you plan on keeping it for over 10 years....OR you just have a lot of money and time to play.
In my humble opinion.

Mike

Bill USN-1
09-20-2013, 02:37 PM
Good points Mike and yes there are carbs out there that work good.(just not great ;) )
And if someone is looking into EFI purely for the MPG gain then it may or may not be worth it.

EFI turns our older vehicles into more modern daily drivers. If your Stude lives it's life in a heated garage and only gets pulled out on sunny days a couple times a year and you want it to remain completely stock, that's great. I love original cars.

If your Stude gets to be time consuming every time you walk out the front door to try to take it to work or on the Sunday drive then you may want to upgrade.

With the EFI it can set a little or as long as you want and when you hop back in you just turn the key and it starts. No pumping the gas, no pulling the choke cable out, no letting it warm up for 15min before you can pull out of the driveway, and really, no more tune ups. Lets face it, when was the last time you did a tune up on your wifes daily driver? She probably has a newer car with all the bells and whistles and just hops in, starts it and drives.

Another big advantage is the engine life.
Modern engines with EFI last much longer. Cars of the 50's and 60's and 70's were lucky to see 100,000 miles without needing work on them. And be honest, if you were looking to buy a used car you would be really leery of one that already flipped the odometer. Today's cars hit 100K without issue and most without even a tune up.
The cylinders don't get washed down with fuel and the oil doesn't get contaminated with fuel and excess carbon deposits. (keep in mind I drive International Harvesters that are known for 300k mile motors)

The bottom line is if your older vehicle was maint free and trouble free would you be more likely to drive it and enjoy it more?
That's the main point of EFI. It allows you to drive our older vehicle any time we want and not have to clean the points or unstick the float everytime we want to go for a cruise.
If you really like doing that then definitely keep your points and carb!

The other plus is your vehicle will always be tuned. No matter where or when you drive the system self corrects for weather and altitude changes so your avg MPG will always go up....after the initial drop due to the smile on your face as you hit the gas pedal!!! it like when you swapped out the 2bbl for the 4bbl, the more power you have the more you want to use it!!

Bottom line, is it for every one....no, of course not.
I would never touch a survivor low mileage vehicle, unless it was a very common model without much collector value.

But for any vehicle I want to drive and enjoy....oh yah it's getting EFI.

Yes I know there are hard core points and carb guys out there that will counter point everything posted, I've been doing this over 12yrs and have heard it all, especially from the 4x4 offroad guys that fix their carb with a hammer. I'm not looking to start a debate on which is better since it really comes down to personal choice.
We can discuss auto vs manual, Stude vs chevy, putting a 350 chevy into a classic Stude!!!!, points vs pertronix.....
Lots of debates that probably come up just about every month on here like they do on every other board.

I'm more than willing to discuss any of the above or any others as long as no one starts to get offended. I see it quite often online where guys put emotions into the words on the screen. Then things start to derail. So let's start a new thread for each discussion point.

It's your vehicle and you can do anything you want to it...as long as you DON'T bolt a SBC in it!!:lol:

sweetolbob
09-20-2013, 03:27 PM
Posted by Bill USN-1

It's your vehicle and you can do anything you want to it...as long as you DON'T bolt a SBC in it!!

Yup!! Just take all the electronics off of it to make the Stude reliable.;) Bill, as you may guess, I have a barn full of SBC powered vehicles but your thoughts on EFI are why I went to them on two of my cars. GM 89-91 TPI on the SBC in the 54K and a Holley HP Avenger in the 83 SBC powered Avanti. Like most of the members, I'm not to be trusted massaging carbs in my dotage.

BTW thanks for joining the forum. We need expertise like you can provide.

Bob