Preparing Stude #2 For HFI (Hamilton Fuel Injection)

[JoeHall]

Well the wife's 63GT restoration is about done, with only a few loose ends yet to tie up. I have driven it about 6,500 miles as a rolling project, and she has now driven it maybe 100 miles. She is growing more & more comfortable, and is liking it more each day.

So, looks like its a keeper, therefore its time to cross the final financial hurdle, and install fuel injection. I have tried three different carbs on the car, and it remains temperamental to say it nicely. Since HFI transformed the 62GT into a car that starts & runs like a fine Swiss watch, without any of the quirks of a carbed motor, I know what do do for this 2nd car.

I actually began the prep work for HFI when I first got the car, and relined the tank. While at it, I installed an in-tank fuel pump kit from tanks.com. Today, I sent the Delco distributor off to Washington for Bill Hamilton to work his magic on and convert to GM electronics. I also took the car to Pay-Less today, and had them install a bung for the O2 sensor. Tomorrow, I plan to install the VSS (magnet on drive-shaft), and drill a 2" hole in the firewall for the ECU connector plug to pass through, so I can lay the ECU on top of the AC evaporator.

This 2nd HFI install oughta go smoother, since I don't have to climb a learning curve like the 1st one. With the prep work done, it will probably only take 4-5 hours to have her up & running, once the kit gets here in a few weeks. Bill is also going to duplicate the final chip on the 1st car, which he set up per the 59-64 Stude Shop Manual to mimic the early Delco advance curves, so the motor does not lose its Stude personality.

I just can't say enough good stuff about HFI

[M15 Trucker]

Is HFI throttle body FI or multi port?

[JoeHall]

Is HFI throttle body FI or multi port?

It is throttle body injection (TBI), and uses late 1980s-early 1990s GM parts. Bill has built a few multi port injection units, but says the benefits over TBI are minimal, and do not justify the extra fifty percent cost.
I like using OEM parts from GM, because parts are readily available at FLAPS. The system is as bullet proof as GM vehicles from those years. Bill says if something ever goes wrong, they "default to run"

[Jeff_H]

Joe,

I'd not heard of the tanks.com fuel pump kit... I took a look at the website. I'd be interested in seeing any pix/tips you have of how you installed this in the hawk tank.

I've a EFI engine in my '53 and my approach when I did this back in 2002 was to mount a low pressure pump just outside the tank and a high pressure pump midway up the car frame. This "sort of" duplicated the OEM setup the donor engine/trans used but that OEM setup had the low pressure pump inside the tank. I've had issues with this setup and I think my pumps are going out again. Last time I drove the car a couple months ago, the whine from the high pressure pump was wavering and I had a stumble driving. I think its going out. I am thinking that the low pressure pump is not always keeping the high pressure pump supplied with fuel and its starving sometimes. I have been too busy too dig into that more but this kit to install 1 pump in the tank is of great interest. Later versions of my donor engine used a in tank high pressure pump so it would work I think.

thanks!

[JoeHall]

Joe,

I'd not heard of the tanks.com fuel pump kit... I took a look at the website. I'd be interested in seeing any pix/tips you have of how you installed this in the hawk tank.

I've a EFI engine in my '53 and my approach when I did this back in 2002 was to mount a low pressure pump just outside the tank and a high pressure pump midway up the car frame. This "sort of" duplicated the OEM setup the donor engine/trans used but that OEM setup had the low pressure pump inside the tank. I've had issues with this setup and I think my pumps are going out again. Last time I drove the car a couple months ago, the whine from the high pressure pump was wavering and I had a stumble driving. I think its going out. I am thinking that the low pressure pump is not always keeping the high pressure pump supplied with fuel and its starving sometimes. I have been too busy too dig into that more but this kit to install 1 pump in the tank is of great interest. Later versions of my donor engine used a in tank high pressure pump so it would work I think.
thanks!

Hi Jeff,
I installed an in-tank pump in the 1st Stude, and installed this, 2nd one about a year ago. But have recently thought, next time I'd use an in-line pump, since I have heard nothing but good reports on them. The in-line I am talking about is a single HP unit, and I'd locate it where most folks put electric pumps on carbed Studes, on the frame, just behind the drivers' door. I'd put it there, because the tank will siphon itself dry if you cut the line there. So the pump is fed by a siphoning effect there, and needs very little draw by the pump.

With your current setup, I wonder if the LP pump is somehow obstructing the HP; maybe getting clogged with debris from the tank. It ain't rocket science, and I can tell you know how to troubleshoot such things.

As for the in-tank pumps: I installed the 1st one in the passenger side, forward corner, but had to massage the bottom of the tank a bit, since the pump kit needs about 5.75" of depth. With the 2nd one, again in the passenger side, but centered front to rear, since the tank is a little deeper there. That one needed much less massaging. It also requires cutting a 4" hole in the top of the tank, but the adapter plate seals it up nicely.

The in-tank has some benefits: a "tray" at the bottom, so no starvation on sweepers if running low on gas in the tank. That's important because starvation is a quick (HP) pump killer. But, you can accomplish the same thing with a 1 quart "mini-tank", between the tank and fuel pump. Another benefit is the kit includes return & vent provisions. Though you can accomplish the same thing by using the filler neck in a Stude. I used steel braided lines for both supply & return lines.

Biggest drawbacks I can see with an in-tank pump: price ($250), and if it ever needs changed, the tank will have to be dropped.

Soo, how do you like your EFI? Is it TBI or MPI?

[57transtar guy]

I'm going to HFI soon as well! A couple more bucks and another week till the new distributor gets here and away I go... Or at least until I can give Hamilton the go ahead:/

[JoeHall]

I'm going to HFI soon as well! A couple more bucks and another week till the new distributor gets here and away I go... Or at least until I can give Hamilton the go ahead:/

If you are planning on HFI, you are wasting money buying a distributor, other than a core to send Bill. He will gut it and install modern GM parts so the spark will be controlled by the computer. You don't even need a vacuum advance. So, that saves quite a bit of money, if you were considering say, one of Dave T's for almost $400. The HFI kit is $1399, and includes the distributor conversion, and everything else needed except fuel line.
I am not aware of ANY other EFI setup that offers a converted distributor & spark control even as an add-on option, let alone an inclusion in the kit.
I would prefer HFI, even if other EFIs were as cheap as HFI is (which they are not).

[JoeHall]

With this install, I am going to give more effort to running the wires so they don't show as much. With the 1st car, I was more concerned with just getting it right, so it would up looking like an octopus. But I saw Joe Rink's EFI'd Avanti, and had to look twice to even notice it had EFI. I also saw pix of a 56J that had EFI and it was hid well. So I know its possible. I have just never been a guy who worries much about details under the hood, other than function.
I will ty to do better with this one.

[sweetolbob]

Originally posted by JoeHall
The HFI kit is $1399, and includes the distributor conversion, and everything else needed except fuel line.

You would spend close to double that to get a commercial EFI from Holley, FAST, MSD, etc. and need to get the distributor modified too. The gain would be the self learning programming but that doesn't seem to be worth the cost as Hamilton has the ability to burn programs to chips. I assume the ECM's that he uses are from the 88-91 time frame and have a removable chip that is easy to remove, reprogram and install.


For stock type, street driven applications this is, to me, the best way to go here.


Bob

[Jeff_H]

"Soo, how do you like your EFI? Is it TBI or MPI? "

Joe, I transplanted a 1984 ford V6 with TBI into the car. The driveabilty is good, turn key starting, no vapor lock, etc.

Growing up on the farm with lots of old cranky trucks/tractors/mowers/etc around with constant carb problems of one sort or another I am glad not to have those problems. My first car was a '79 mustang with a miserable cold blooded carb'd 4 cylinder. Winter driving with that in MN was no joy at all.

If not for this fuel pump problem that crops up, I would be totally satisfied with the install. I usually get about 20-22mpg with the '53K.

I should check the low pressure pump is actually running. The 1st one of those I had went bad (literally fell apart). If its not working it causes strain on the high pressure pump trying to draw fuel from the tank through it. There is also a filter in front of the LP pump could be clogged I suppose. I have one of the last NOS lark wagon tanks that SASCO had that I used for this car so its not full of rusty/dirt though.

[57transtar guy]

Joe

I'm buying a distributor from Jon Myers and sending it to Hamilton so he can build the system. I sent over Myers specs of what he does and Hamilton said it's going to be pretty close to what he would end up doing. He's not charging me for the distributor work so those funds will be spent on the VSS.

The reason for this is I can't be without the truck for that much time since it's my main mode of transportation. Not ideal but I will hopefully just sell the current distributor when it's all done.

I am very excited for this conversation though and I will post pictures of mine when I'm done! Please do the same and good luck!

[JoeHall]

"Soo, how do you like your EFI? Is it TBI or MPI? "

Joe, I transplanted a 1984 ford V6 with TBI into the car. The driveabilty is good, turn key starting, no vapor lock, etc.

Growing up on the farm with lots of old cranky trucks/tractors/mowers/etc around with constant carb problems of one sort or another I am glad not to have those problems. My first car was a '79 mustang with a miserable cold blooded carb'd 4 cylinder. Winter driving with that in MN was no joy at all.

If not for this fuel pump problem that crops up, I would be totally satisfied with the install. I usually get about 20-22mpg with the '53K.

I should check the low pressure pump is actually running. The 1st one of those I had went bad (literally fell apart). If its not working it causes strain on the high pressure pump trying to draw fuel from the tank through it. There is also a filter in front of the LP pump could be clogged I suppose. I have one of the last NOS lark wagon tanks that SASCO had that I used for this car so its not full of rusty/dirt though.

I bet that is one sweet ride. In 2005, I saw a 53 or 54 C/K at Spokane with a V6 in it, and it looked like it belonged there. The guy driving it also created it, and was interesting to talk to. He was an engineer, and had left no stone un-turned in making it a beautiful driver. I cannot recall if it had EFI, but probably did.

Sounds like yours just needs a little attention

[JoeHall]

You would spend close to double that to get a commercial EFI from Holley, FAST, MSD, etc. and need to get the distributor modified too. The gain would be the self learning programming but that doesn't seem to be worth the cost as Hamilton has the ability to burn programs to chips. I assume the ECM's that he uses are from the 88-91 time frame and have a removable chip that is easy to remove, reprogram and install.


For stock type, street driven applications this is, to me, the best way to go here.


Bob

Hi Bob,
Yes, it is the late 80s-early 90s type with the chip in the ECU, that takes less than five minutes to change.

[Jeff_H]

I bet that is one sweet ride. In 2005, I saw a 53 or 54 C/K at Spokane with a V6 in it, and it looked like it belonged there. The guy driving it also created it, and was interesting to talk to. He was an engineer, and had left no stone un-turned in making it a beautiful driver. I cannot recall if it had EFI, but probably did.

That would probably have been me! I did have my '53 there that year and I am a engineer (EE). My car is 2 tone green in stock colors. There was another "identical" '53K there with same colors but it was a pro-street rod. That car had a much better paint job on it than mine! That was a fun 2 week trip. Spent week #1 at the meet and #2 visiting my sister who lived in Yakima at the time. We did a day trip to Rainier, scenery sure beats this area where a 1 ft high "hill" is noticeable.

[JoeHall]

That would probably have been me! I did have my '53 there that year and I am a engineer (EE). My car is 2 tone green in stock colors. There was another "identical" '53K there with same colors but it was a pro-street rod. That car had a much better paint job on it than mine! That was a fun 2 week trip. Spent week #1 at the meet and #2 visiting my sister who lived in Yakima at the time. We did a day trip to Rainier, scenery sure beats this area where a 1 ft high "hill" is noticeable.

Hi Jeff,
If your car has shoulder belts that are anchored to the roof line, that would definitely be you. That's one of the many engineering feats on that car I thought was amazing. If that's you, it is indeed a small Stude world. I have mentioned that car in several threads since then. There was a 56 Hawk within the last year on ebay that someone had put a V6 in, but it paled in comparison to the engineering that went into the one in Spokane.