Clarity for 'Grey Area' 1964 Studebakers

[SN-60]

A fellow forum member's opinion that the solid 'Cambridge Gray' '56J with the red leather interior is definitely FACTORY STOCK brings up an interesting (and controversial) question: Did Studebaker produce only eleven FACTORY STOCK vehicles powered by R3 or R4 engines?

I would argue that any vehicle sold into private hands by Studebaker, equipped with one of those power plants, should be considered a FACTORY STOCK vehicle....whether it came off the assembly line with one of these special engines or not.

This would be particularly true since, unlike the non-stock interior in the gray '56J, in 1964 R3 and R4 engines were legitimate factory options for that year's Studebaker cars.

The tally of what is considered to be FACTORY STOCK 1964 Studebakers equipped with these special engines should total more than eleven.

The Bonneville cars, and the Hot Rod Magazine test cars should, in all fairness, be included in the total! (In My opinion)

[Chris_Dresbach]

In my opinion any car that leaves the factory equipped with factory optional equipment as advertised would be factory stock, but there are a few exceptions. If the papers at the dealership say that I can call up the factory and order a Daytona with an R4, then it would be stock. If I get a Daytona with a 289 and then change it myself to an R4 then it would still be "stock" by factory specs, but would no longer match the cars production order. (But that would only matter if that was a show car being judged in what they call "super competition" car shows where a restored car is actually put up against its own build sheet.) Exceptions to factory stock (as in a car unchanged from the point when it left the factory) would be stuff like prototypes and factory show cars that have been modified or equipped with non-production parts.

[8E45E]

A fellow forum member's opinion that the solid 'Cambridge Gray' '56J with the red leather interior is definitely FACTORY STOCK brings up an interesting (and controversial) question: Did Studebaker produce only eleven FACTORY STOCK vehicles powered by R3 or R4 engines?

Ford used the term 'RPO' for Regular Production Option, and DSO for 'Domestic Special Order. The R3 and R4 engines as used in Studebakers in 1964 would be considered an 'RPO' option. On the other hand, that '56 Golden Hawk and those 20 Marshals would be 'DSO' cars in Ford's ordering system. Studebaker never really had anything to designate options not listed in the option book other than notes on the production order, or sometimes '99 Deviation Permit'

Craig

[Swifster]

There were 12 factory R3 & R4 cars. 11 R3 cars and one R4. If a dealer (like Yenko Chevrolet) built the car and sold it and the owner has paperwork, bonus. Do the work at home and it's just an engine swap. I'd love to put an R3 in my Commander, but I don't have the coin for it. But even then, it would be just be engine swap.

[SN-60]

There were 12 factory R3 & R4 cars. 11 R3 cars and one R4. If a dealer (like Yenko Chevrolet) built the car and sold it and the owner has paperwork, bonus. Do the work at home and it's just an engine swap. I'd love to put an R3 in my Commander, but I don't have the coin for it. But even then, it would be just be engine swap.

Eleven R3 cars?...I count nine R3 Avantis and one R3 Commander 2dr.

[Swifster]

I thought the last 10 Avanti's were R3. If it's 9, then your number is correct.

[SN-60]

I thought the last 10 Avanti's were R3. If it's 9, then your number is correct.

It was nine.....and it was not the last ten Avantis. The nine R3 'assembly line' cars were intermixed with other Avantis.

[SN-60]

In my opinion any car that leaves the factory equipped with factory optional equipment as advertised would be factory stock, but there are a few exceptions. If the papers at the dealership say that I can call up the factory and order a Daytona with an R4, then it would be stock. If I get a Daytona with a 289 and then change it myself to an R4 then it would still be "stock" by factory specs, but would no longer match the cars production order. (But that would only matter if that was a show car being judged in what they call "super competition" car shows where a restored car is actually put up against its own build sheet.) Exceptions to factory stock (as in a car unchanged from the point when it left the factory) would be stuff like prototypes and factory show cars that have been modified or equipped with non-production parts.

Do You think that, say, a new R2 Daytona that received an R3 or an R4 engine while under Studebaker ownership is just as FACTORY STOCK as one that received an R3 or an R4 engine on the Studebaker assemby line?

[62champ]

Reminds me of a story a former Studebaker dealer told me.

In 1952 he wanted to order a new 1.5 ton R-series truck to be the new dealership wrecker. Instead of the big six he wanted it to have a 232 V8 in it. Person in South Bend said it could not be done. So - he ordered a 2R16 the way he wanted it along with a 232 long block (when it arrived the engine crate was attached to the truck's frame). His two mechanics had the big six out and the 232 in over a weekend and it was off to the wrecker company for the rear platform to be mounted...

[Chris_Dresbach]

Do You think that, say, a new R2 Daytona that received an R3 or an R4 engine while under Studebaker ownership is just as FACTORY STOCK as one that received an R3 or an R4 engine on the Studebaker assemby line?

I don't see why it wouldn't be as long as the engine is built under factory specs. (bore, stroke, compression, etc.) What I wouldn't consider factory stock is something like an R5 Bonneville engine. That was NOT stock and Studebaker never called it stock.

[Charlie D]

I would appreciate you guys helping me understand how a dealer installed option effects the originality of a vehicle. My 1955 President State Sedan had undercoating and fog lights. It also had the options listed on the production order. Were dealer installed items listed on the production order or just added to the sticker price or original sales invoice? Of course without the sales invoice I will never know if the dealer added them or a subsequent owner. I realize that in the overall scheme of things these items are not as important as R3 and R4 engines. I just always wondered about it. I have heard that the dealer installed partial flow oil filters were a different color than the ones installed at the factory. Would the dealer installed partial flows be listed on the production order? Thank you for your help.

Charlie D.

[avantilover]

Charlie, only options installed at the factory would be on the production order, those extras installed at the dealer would be on the dealer invoice only. An exception could be seat belts which would be placed in the car for the dealer to install.

[8E45E]

Charlie, only options installed at the factory would be on the production order, those extras installed at the dealer would be on the dealer invoice only. An exception could be seat belts which would be placed in the car for the dealer to install.

Or sometimes the hubcaps. Usually an 'X' after the 'AC' number on the production order indicated the item was to be 'shipped in trunk'

Craig

[Corvanti]

I would appreciate you guys helping me understand how a dealer installed option effects the originality of a vehicle. My 1955 President State Sedan had undercoating and fog lights. It also had the options listed on the production order. Were dealer installed items listed on the production order or just added to the sticker price or original sales invoice? Of course without the sales invoice I will never know if the dealer added them or a subsequent owner. I realize that in the overall scheme of things these items are not as important as R3 and R4 engines. I just always wondered about it. I have heard that the dealer installed partial flow oil filters were a different color than the ones installed at the factory. Would the dealer installed partial flows be listed on the production order? Thank you for your help.Charlie D.

thank you for your post! that was my first thought when reading this thread earlier today.

i have to ask the question: how available are dealer invoices? i do recall a thread not too long ago about dealer paperwork from (i think) a New Jersey dealership a forum member has on hand.

[StudeRich]

Do You think that, say, a new R2 Daytona that received an R3 or an R4 engine while under Studebaker ownership is just as FACTORY STOCK as one that received an R3 or an R4 engine on the Studebaker assemby line?

I think this is a really good question.
I know of a Avanti that had it's R3 Engine Dealer Installed, so you could say it fits this scenario perfectly.

But does it really matter if you could prove or not whether the Car was actually "Sold" first and delivered before the Dealer ordered the Engine from Paxton Prods. Div. and installed it?

Of course there are Dealer Invoices for the Engine install on this Car.

Factory Stock R3 Avanti or Not ???????

As far as these Dealer Invoices being universally available for many or all Cars, that will never happen because it was totally up to the defunct Dealers as to what to do with those documents.

This scenario also reminds me of the well documented Cars that were modified AFTER the S/B Line shut down to meet Dealer orders, like the Last S/B Studebaker, '64 Daytona Hardtop and it's "replacement Car". They most certainly WERE Factory Owned at the time.

These 2 Cars were NOT the ONLY Cars so modified! It would be Great to document one of these Cars that still exists, to see if it matches the Build slip or not.
But I guess the passed years might prevent us from knowing what was original and what is not.