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007
08-05-2013, 01:01 PM
From time to time I have weighed in offering my limited knowledge about OHV six Studebaker engines. As many of you may recall the reason I have an OHV six in my 49 2R is one of the previous owners had chosen to install that engine. I believe it was Frank Drumheller that had identified the replacement engine being from a 62/63 Lark. At one time Bill Cathcart was the guru for all things Studebaker six cylinder in nature. Bill has retired and living a life of easy goingness. My question concerns how much you can bore out one of these OHV blocks to operate as a daily driver? What is the significance of using the crank of the 185 into the 170 block. How much port work will be allowed on the head and can you install significantly larger valves with proper preparation in order to avoid the premature cracking that is so often prevalent with an OHV cylinder head? Is there much advantage to installing roller rocker arms? Due to the small exhaust ports would there be any advantage in using exhaust headers to increase the exhaust size and flow and would it be necessary to bridge/block the Siamese exhaust ports of 3 and 4 to improve the performance. This exhaust port divider is designed to separate the siamese ports (3 & 4) to create equal exhaust flow. I have a GM throttle body injection system and of course it would be ideal if it was possible to have the head drilled for individual injectors though room is limited. Perhaps a new intake manifold could be designed to accommodate this?
Of course like Barlow Soper who was the Turning Wheels modified editor the inherent characteristics and design of the Studebaker engines prevents you from obtaining the performances of a modern engine. According to Barlow this is why he finally installed a Chevy into his Avanti-he wanted more performance and he could not achieve that from a Studebaker engine. I would be interested to here comments from Dwayne Grindinger, Jim Pepper and Ted Harbit.

PackardV8
08-05-2013, 03:04 PM
Of course like Barlow Soper who was the Turning Wheels modified editor the inherent characteristics and design of the Studebaker engines prevents you from obtaining the performances of a modern engine. According to Barlow this is why he finally installed a Chevy into his Avanti-he wanted more performance and he could not achieve that from a Studebaker engine.

First, I know and love Barlow, but all enthusiasts, myself included, stretch the bounds of reason to rationalize a justification for doing the next project. Barlow's Jim Lange-built Studebaker V8 was making nearly 500 horsepower. All Barlow, or any of us has to say is, "I've gotten bored with my 500-horse Studebaker V8 and want to try something new." Somehow, that's just hard to do, so we rationalize. I've got a great explanation as to why I spent three years and thousands of dollars building a C-cab with a Packard V8. Wanna hear it?


What is the significance of using the crank of the 185 into the 170 block.Maybe eight to ten more horsepower.


Is there much advantage to installing roller rocker arms?Zero, Zip, Nada, as a straight interchange. If you can find someone to engineer the mounting of higher ratio rockers, say 1.65 or 1.7, then there would be a horsepower increase up in the RPM range where the long stroke 185" crank would fly out of the block.

If someone held a gun to my head and said, "Build OHV Champion horsepower or die", I'd look for the latest production head and adapt a turbocharger to it. A turbocharger can be sized to make boost and horsepower at lower RPMs. All the other incremental changes you mention would be very slight improvements which if they have any effect are at the high end of the RPM range. Your build, your money, your decision.

jack vines

irish
08-05-2013, 05:07 PM
You can give the intake valves a 30 degree back-cut, this has an effect similar to using higher lift ratio rockers and it doesn't cost much. It could add a couple of horsepower, but don't back-cut the exhaust valves, it will cause them to run hotter.

Joe

wittsend
08-05-2013, 10:23 PM
Speaking frankly those who have that engine will marvel that you got 20 maybe even 30 more HP out of it. The rest will think you are crazy. If that doesn't bother you and the time and funds are there then by all means enjoy yourself.

I have a 63 Rambler American with a "similar to Studebaker" 196 engine. I too researched making more power for that gutless wonder with 3-1/8" bores and a 4-1/4" stroke. In the end I concluded that a modern 4.0 out of a Jeep would be a better use of my time and money (not that I've done it yet). And that regardless of the fact I'd have to slightly modify the firewall and radiator cradle. But, yes, I understand your intrigue to do the unusual.

Tom

jclary
08-05-2013, 10:33 PM
I know many would call it blasphemy...but does anyone know of someone installing one of the light weight peppy metric V6's in...say a 40's or 50's Studebaker...or any other American make car of the era? For the power to weight ratio, and the numbers that should be available, it's a wonder they're not every where.

wittsend
08-06-2013, 12:43 AM
An interesting point. I typically see the American V-6's in the British sports cars of the 60's. I've also seen a very clean installation of a V-6 Mopar (injection and all) in a mid 60's Dart.

My guess would be that when you get to swapping the engine one typically moves to more power (meaning V-8). Also a lot of the V-6's engines came in FWD cars. So, there may not be a readily available transmission for RWD. If you want a RWD V-6 it is probably coming out of a truck. That said I see a number of the Supercharged V-6 Bonniville's when I go each month to Pick A Part. Intriguing!

Also for consideration, Datsun (Nissan) and Toyota made a fair number of inline 6's that mate up to their 5 speed transmissions. Typically they were in the 150 HP range.

Tom

BobWaitz
08-06-2013, 06:59 AM
Our little flathead six pulled 234 hp on the dyno and went over 130 mph on the salt. That took a lot of work, a custom steel head (and you don't want to know what that cost) and a turbo-charger. Prior to the new head we cracked two stock ones. And to get a block that didn't crack (because we cracked one of them, twice) we got an NOS block from SASCO. If you want to get some oomph out of a 6 I think about the last thing you want to do is over-bore it -- it makes them fragile. Turbo or supercharging is the only way to go. If you want a few extra ponies without spending over $3000, talk to Dave Molnar and have him build you a nice intake and exhaust.

junior
08-06-2013, 08:38 AM
Also for consideration, Datsun (Nissan) and Toyota made a fair number of inline 6's that mate up to their 5 speed transmissions. Typically they were in the 150 HP range.

Tom

One really neat I6 that gets overlooked is the 290hp dohc that GM installed in the TrailBlazer...be cool to see that in any Stude. cheers, junior.

4961Studebaker
08-06-2013, 08:51 AM
One really neat I6 that gets overlooked is the 290hp dohc that GM installed in the TrailBlazer...be cool to see that in any Stude. cheers, junior.

Ive thought of this very engine many times!
Own one my self, quiet with accelerator guts and seem to run trouble free.
Time will tell but these 4.2L may be in the haul of fame :) with Jeeps 4.0 ?

Now where's my tape measure the 2r5 needs 4x4 and a new I6!!

avantibngrant
08-06-2013, 10:14 AM
Ive thought of this very engine many times!
Own one my self, quiet with accelerator guts and seem to run trouble free.
Time will tell but these 4.2L may be in the haul of fame :) with Jeeps 4.0 ?

Now where's my tape measure the 2r5 needs 4x4 and a new I6!!
The AMC 4 liter gets my vote every time for one of the best engines ever - certainly one of the top 1 or 2 inline 6's. I had one in a Comanchee. I sure wish it was in this Patriot I have now.
Neil

garyash
08-06-2013, 10:36 AM
I have always thought that the best looking Studebaker 6 project was Dave Strand's. I copied a photo that had been posted some years ago. Where is the car now?

Also, here's a photo of Dave Molnar's M5 truck with the intake and exhaust manifolds that Bob Waitz referred to above.

Honorable mention goes to Ford Stoecker's 1937 Studebaker with the humpback truck body and GM 302 cu in in-line 6 with crossflow head. Ford and some friends are scheduled to drive from Missouri to New Bruswick and Nova Scotia in September for a tour. I don't have a photo of his truck and engine - it was at Colorado Springs a few weeks back.

http://www.studegarage.com/images/other/champ6_dave_strand_t5dual.jpg

http://www.studegarage.com/images/other/digger_manifold.jpg

garyash
08-06-2013, 11:43 AM
Thinking about Jack Vine's comments on adding a turbocharger to a Champ OHV 6, I modeled it on my old Dyno 2000 software. Here's a graph showing a stock OHV 6 versus one with some mods:
1. Stock inlet valve (1.593 dia) but exhaust valve increased from 1.406 to 1.431 dia. Assumes some port work. Increasing inlet valve o.d. didn't add hp.
2. Stock 8:1 compression
3. Small turbocharger (Garrett T5142-3, 350 cfm). This may be a very old model, but I had a data file for it. I limited boost to only 5 psi, but using 10 psi didn't help a lot. I also tried a 400 cfm turbo and larger carb, saw only a small improvement. A little turbo is probably all that is needed.
4. 350 cfm 2-barrel carb
5. Cam with stock 0.359 lift but some timing changes. Adding lift didn't change the results.
6. Good exhaust manifold and pipes

RESULTS: Horsepower goes from about 120 hp at 4500 rpm to 195 hp at 5000 rpm. There is theoretically more at higher rpm, but it will blow up at some point with the 4" stroke.
Torque goes from 165 to about 215 over a fair rpm range.

So, Jack's prediction is a good one. As I recall, Bill Cathcart put a turbo on his old green Lark with Champ flathead, got lots of hp before it blew up eventually.

26435

(S)
08-06-2013, 01:20 PM
It has been said, it takes lots of time and money on one of these to get more power. The above looks like a lot of dollars per HP.

I'd say build it up for strength, and do not bore it. Put it on the bottle. You may not get every ounce of HP like Gary's build but it will make plenty of power and still be fun.

JoeHall
08-06-2013, 06:59 PM
I would be interested to here comments from Dwayne Grindinger, Jim Pepper and Ted Harbit.
It looks like the OP is not interested in hearing from us peasants. We need to be quiet and hear what the recognized gurus have to say ;)

Pat Dilling
08-06-2013, 07:36 PM
I am not able to offer anything on the 6 cylinders, but I have had several conversations and email exchanges with Barlow about his engine swap. I can relay what he shared with me about his reason for doing the swap. He went to a lot of work on that 500 hp Studebaker motor, but it was a real beast and he said he just did not enjoy driving it. He chose a later model GM EFI motor that won't have as much peak power, but still will have over 400 hp and will be infinitely more driveable. It also has a much flatter torque curve. It is an all aluminum motor so it will shave about 200 pounds off the front of his Avanti.

dnevin
08-06-2013, 11:27 PM
I like the torque curve of that turbo'd flat six--thanks for posting that Gary.

Ron Dame
08-07-2013, 08:06 AM
I am one of those that put a 185 crank in an OHV Champ. It was bored 0.030", though the limiting factor to go to .060 is piston availability. I don't know what the theoretical maximum is, but probably like late V8 blocks, core shift would likely limit it. I had .030 pistons on the shelf. Compression ratio went to 10.25:1, and I had a mild cam ground for it so it would remain streetable at low RPMs. Lots of money for the gain of perhaps 25 HP, but proportionally it is significant. I did it just 'cuz I could. It does make the truck more driveable, and with a 4:27:1 axle and overdrive, 75 on the highway is no problem, except the truck vibrates too badly to want to go any faster....which reminds me, I need to start yet another thread or find my old ones on vibration....

garyash
08-07-2013, 09:13 AM
Here's the Dyno 2000 estimate of Ron's engine vs a stock CHamp 6 OHV, though the cam numbers are just a guess based on his description of "mild cam". Ron, did you do anything about an exhaust system?

Since I doubt that any of us would go drag racing seriously with a Champ 6 of any variety, my guess is that we are looking for more mid-range power for passing or for the on-ramp on the Interstate. What would be the maximum rpm that the engine could take on a regular basis for street driving? Will Champ 6's even wind up to 5000 rpm?

I took a look at the CX Racing site at www.cxracing.com (http://www.cxracing.com). They seem to have some very inexpensive small turbos, like those for the 2.3-2.5 liter Fords and imports, rated for 300 hp, probably big enough for a 170-185 Champ 6. How difficult is it to add a turbocharger, maybe even without an intercooler? What kind of carb set-up is used? I've got my '63 Wagonaire coming together in the garage...

26449

PackardV8
08-07-2013, 10:26 AM
Will Champ 6's even wind up to 5000 rpm?

Yes, but not easily and not often. It's pretty much moot, because they're intake port limited, so more intercooled boost and more lower RPM power is a much better tradeoff.


How difficult is it to add a turbocharger,

Adding a turbo to an inline six is relatively easy. For a street unit, the OEM intake and exhaust manifold could be used.


maybe even without an intercooler?
You'll definitely want an intercooler. The wrecking yards are full of Saab, Subaru, Mitsu, et al, sized just right.


What kind of carb set-up is used?

Think '57 GH or R2. Simple blow-through carb with boost referenced fuel pump and recurved distributor.

If I were doing it, I'd add alcohol/water injection.
www.snowperformance.net

jack vines

skyway
08-07-2013, 12:24 PM
Wouldn't the real advantage of an otherwise "stock" 185 OHV engine in an early Lark be that a bit more torque and power would hopefully allow you to run a 3.73 rear end with OD?
Anything more that that and you'll start blowing up first gear in a T-96 (and you can't go with a T-86 unless you can find the ever elusive taxicab bellhousing), and the spider gears in that 27 rearend.

PackardV8
08-07-2013, 01:07 PM
Anything more that that and you'll start blowing up first gear in a T-96, and the spider gears in that 27 rearend.Point of clarification, if the T96/Dana 27 are in good condition and driven in an adult manner, no Stude OHV 6-cyl will harm them.

Transmissions and rear axles are broken by shock loading - sidestepping the clutch at RPM when the car is stationary. The T96/Dana 44 will handle 185" OHV 6-cyl power, as long as the car is moving when the horsepower/torque is applied.

FWIW, back in the day, Doane Spencer, a noted California hotrodder/roadracer running a Sunbeam Tiger, swapped the Dana 44 for the lighter Dana 27 from a Lark six. Since there were no standing starts in circuit racing, the Dana 27 handled the 275hp 260" V8 all season long.

jack vines

Ron Dame
08-07-2013, 01:46 PM
I've been in the mid 4's, but power was dropping off rapidly and noise was rising equally fast. I'm running a stock head, intake and exhaust though, since I wanted an engine that looked stock. In reality it peforms like a well used, but not worn out 259. So it's nice in town and on the road, but certainly not what I would call fast. Milage is not great either. A used 259 would be much cheaper, but I just wanted to play, and I am satisfied with it despite it's faults.


Here's the Dyno 2000 estimate of Ron's engine vs a stock CHamp 6 OHV, though the cam numbers are just a guess based on his description of "mild cam". Ron, did you do anything about an exhaust system?

Since I doubt that any of us would go drag racing seriously with a Champ 6 of any variety, my guess is that we are looking for more mid-range power for passing or for the on-ramp on the Interstate. What would be the maximum rpm that the engine could take on a regular basis for street driving? Will Champ 6's even wind up to 5000 rpm?

I took a look at the CX Racing site at www.cxracing.com (http://www.cxracing.com). They seem to have some very inexpensive small turbos, like those for the 2.3-2.5 liter Fords and imports, rated for 300 hp, probably big enough for a 170-185 Champ 6. How difficult is it to add a turbocharger, maybe even without an intercooler? What kind of carb set-up is used? I've got my '63 Wagonaire coming together in the garage...

26449

Ron Dame
08-07-2013, 01:50 PM
Bingo! I'm swapping my 4:27 open Dana for a 4.09 TT. No mine is in an 8E Champ, so it has the truck v8 bellhousing, flywheel, and clutch. I had to have the 185 crank drilled to accept the pilot bushing, but that was no big deal.
Wouldn't the real advantage of an otherwise "stock" 185 OHV engine in an early Lark be that a bit more torque and power would hopefully allow you to run a 3.73 rear end with OD?
Anything more that that and you'll start blowing up first gear in a T-96 (and you can't go with a T-86 unless you can find the ever elusive taxicab bellhousing), and the spider gears in that 27 rearend.

jclary
08-07-2013, 02:22 PM
I had to have the 185 crank drilled to accept the pilot bushing, but that was no big deal.

Well well!...Certainly no big deal...unless it was drilled OFF CENTER!:ohmy:. ...Wonder what kind of mysterious vibration in the drive line something like that could produce?:rolleyes::o

Really, Ron, I thought you had solved that problem long ago. Reading back through the thread, you might have set a record for finding and un-finding the solution to a problem. If it gets to the point you want to chunk it...I'll trade you my one owner 1987 Nissan King Cab, loaded with all the factory options for it. I'll even leave the Studebaker script attached to the back of the camper top rear window frame.:)

Ron Dame
08-07-2013, 07:40 PM
HAH! Ya know, I just kept getting to the point I lived with it...until it would start being awful again, and then I'd try again. And if *I* had drilled the crank, yeah, it'd be bad...then again most of the shops around here are as incompetent as I am. But either way, it was no different with the old 170 engine in it.

As far as trade? I am as stubborn as I am incompetent. If I eveer get it fixed, then I'll be bore with it and be ready to trade!...maybe....




Well well!...Certainly no big deal...unless it was drilled OFF CENTER!:ohmy:. ...Wonder what kind of mysterious vibration in the drive line something like that could produce?:rolleyes::o

Really, Ron, I thought you had solved that problem long ago. Reading back through the thread, you might have set a record for finding and un-finding the solution to a problem. If it gets to the point you want to chunk it...I'll trade you my one owner 1987 Nissan King Cab, loaded with all the factory options for it. I'll even leave the Studebaker script attached to the back of the camper top rear window frame.:)

LeoH
08-07-2013, 08:08 PM
Thinking about Jack Vine's comments on adding a turbocharger to a Champ OHV 6, I modeled it on my old Dyno 2000 software. Here's a graph showing a stock OHV 6 versus one with some mods:

26435

Can we have an engine primer here? This was interesting to see and causes me to wonder, is a 1500 rpm hp peak difference due to the turbo, or the flathead/OHV design difference or what?

garyash
08-07-2013, 08:56 PM
Leo: Both graphs are for the OHV version of the engine, one with normal intake and one with a turbocharger and some other modifications. Since hp = torque x rpm (1 hp=33,000 ft-lb/min), the theoretical hp may increase at higher rpm. What computer modeling doesn't show is that the engine might not want to wind that high because other factors come into play, like valve train response or crankshaft breakage. Older small-bore, long stroke engines will get into the 4000-4500 rpm range, but higher rpms may be just wishful thinking or expensive failures.

Generating horsepower takes pulling in lots of air and fuel and getting the burned products out the exhaust. A turbocharger with 8 psig of boost will nominally stuff the combustion chamber with about 50% more fuel/air mixture before compressing it (23 psia vs 15 psia), so horsepower should go from about 120 to about 180. Increasing valve size and cam open time also contributes to more horsepower from better flow efficiency. However, old cast-iron engines were designed for durability, fuel economy, and low cost, so they don't breathe very well, limiting the increase in flow of air/fuel mixture, in spite of the other things we try. It takes about 150 cfm of flow to get 100 hp, and older engines are only 75-80% efficient on flow. Total flow = displacement x rpm x 0.5 x efficiency, so a 170 cu in engine at 4500 rpm and 75% efficiency can flow 166 cu ft of air/fuel for more than 110 hp. On the exhaust side, low - but not zero - backpressure gets the burned gas out so the next charge can go in. Of course, this generates higher peak pressures in the combustion chamber, more load on the rods, bearings, and crankshaft, and more heat into the cooling system. At some point, the engine will fail from being overloaded. But, boy, will we have fun in the meantime!

Jeff T.
08-07-2013, 10:13 PM
What are you guys trying to do? motivate me to find a good 185 crank and finally build an ohv 185... I already have the 8E parts to bolt a T86 to it...

what the heck... Anybody have a good 185 crank needing a good home:) My old one was too gouged to repair

Jeff T.

ps. maybe I'll see if Andy at the archives can find to blueprint for the 2bb manifold that was in the works back in '63:)

BobWaitz
08-07-2013, 10:32 PM
Our 6 ran a draw-thru system with the intake hacked off a Buick Grand National. I wouldn't recommend that particular setup for the street the way we ran it. The Buick had problems like fuel pooling while idling at a stoplight, but for Bonneville it was fine -- not any time spent idling or slowing down for a curve. Greg is putting this engine in a vehicle he's in the process of building for the street but plans to run it on propane which should work better with the draw-thru for his purposes. If you want to run pump gas, I'd recommend Dave Molnar's setup with a Mercedes supercharger.

http://salt2salt.com/05_05_07_Update/Graphics/DSC00883.JPG
http://salt2salt.com/05_05_07_Update/Graphics/DSC00885.JPG

As the Germans say, "Mit Kompressor."
http://salt2salt.com/05_05_07_Update/Graphics/DSC00887.JPG

62champ
08-08-2013, 07:02 AM
Mr. Waitz,

You cannot show pictures like that without a video of it running (and more importantly - the audio of what it sounded like...)

Skybolt
08-08-2013, 07:47 AM
Wouldn't the real advantage of an otherwise "stock" 185 OHV engine in an early Lark be that a bit more torque and power would hopefully allow you to run a 3.73 rear end with OD?
Anything more that that and you'll start blowing up first gear in a T-96 (and you can't go with a T-86 unless you can find the ever elusive taxicab bellhousing), and the spider gears in that 27 rearend.

It's not in the bellhousing that there is a difference. It's the plate from the engine to the bellhousing. With it one can bolt Studebaker V8 bellhousings to it. I have one as I was going to put a four speed and turbocharge my 59 Flathead six, and then my OHV six. Wisdom took over and I am putting in a V8. I played for a few years with the Studebaker sixes and although it was fun and I gained some HP from the modifications it still left me without the HP I reliability, smoothness and parts availability I wanted. I ended up selling the OHV and donating my other Champion engines and parts to a high school auto shop program. If anyone can't find one let me know and I could get a plate reproduced as it is not a difficult job but having the original for a pattern is the key. Just look for any sixties truck with OHV engine and a T86.

Next:

Best bang for the buck is turbo it. Don't bore it if you don't have to. Core shift is not the issue it is sealing between the siamesed bores.

I had a 4bbl on the OHV engine and it loved it. with the work I had done it liked the freeway and would pull up hills. I ran it behind a T96 with OD and a 4.10 rear.

I would find a few heads, or at least one more good one, because of the numerous problems associated with them, like cracking between the valves and some thin casting section, that have been sectioned and examined. Try to find as much literature as you can. I know a few members don't like Dick Datson's take on a few things but the amount of information that can be sourced in one place has still not been eclipsed for the sixes and if someone has more their not giving it up.

Len. aka Skybolt

BobWaitz
08-08-2013, 09:18 AM
Mr. Waitz,

You cannot show pictures like that without a video of it running (and more importantly - the audio of what it sounded like...)

Yeah.... those pictures are from 2005 and my camera at the time didn't do video. But you ought to be able to hear it in person. Dave is installing that engine in his M5, along with an independent front suspension. I think it will be running in time for the May swap in South Bend -- at least I'm planning on telling him everyone will expect it then! It did sound really cool.

LeoH
08-08-2013, 11:06 AM
Bob, I hope not too obvious a question, how and why 4 exhaust pipes on a six cylinder engine?

LeoH
08-08-2013, 11:09 AM
Thanks for the summary Gary. That's the sort of explanation I was fishing for.

tbredehoft
08-08-2013, 11:11 AM
4 exhaust pipes

Cyls two / three and four / five have siamesed exhaust ports rather than one port for each exhaust valve.

BobWaitz
08-08-2013, 11:32 AM
Bob, I hope not too obvious a question, how and why 4 exhaust pipes on a six cylinder engine?

The center four cylinders have shared exhaust ports -- like the Stude V8 with only 3 exhaust pipes per side. Notice that the two middle ones are slightly bigger.

BobWaitz
08-08-2013, 11:40 AM
Our Turbocharged 6's dyno numbers:

http://salt2salt.com/Dyno_05_06/Dyno_05_06.html

This was before we had run the new head at Bonneville so it was very early in the development cycle. I'm sure more HP could have been achieved, but how much before it broke is something we, thankfully, never found out.

LeoH
08-08-2013, 05:29 PM
The center four cylinders have shared exhaust ports -- like the Stude V8 with only 3 exhaust pipes per side. Notice that the two middle ones are slightly bigger.

Got it. I do see the larger tubing now.

sactorandy
08-08-2013, 07:16 PM
I've considered the GM Vortec straight six for my Champion. I think it is too long. The Vortec straight 4 is twice as powerful as my stock flathead and is the same legnth. There is also a Vortec straight 5 cylinder engine. The Lexus IS 250/300 straight six is a good choice too.

garyash
08-08-2013, 08:54 PM
Bob Waitz, your dyno numbers are very interesting. They do seem to confirm the theoretical 150 cfm per 100 hp values. Also, you chose to keep it under 5000 rpm, sounds like good advice. Your air/fuel ratio is in the range of 11:1 and I might have expected it to be more like 13:1 or 14:1. Is the richer mixture to cool the engine and prevent detonation? At 120-130 lbs/hr of fuel, you're burning through a lot of gas at 6 lb/gallon - but it's not the "economy run", and the runs on the salt are only a few minutes. The old adage was: "Good, fast, cheap - pick any two!"

spokejr
08-08-2013, 11:32 PM
Has anybody run the old Pontiac Sprint OHC 6?

PackardV8
08-09-2013, 10:11 AM
Has anybody run the old Pontiac Sprint OHC 6?
Yes. That after making the investment to develop the OHC, GM chose to discontinue it after only a couple of years. Then, they continued to manufacture the pushrod version for millions of units and many more years; pretty much tells the story.

jack vines

garyash
08-09-2013, 10:14 AM
The story and data for the Pontiac OHC6 are here: http://www.overheadcammerschapter.150m.com/history.html
Note that the "father" of the engine is none other than former Studebaker engineer, John Z. DeLorean! Now, if he had just stuck around in South Bend and done that for Studebaker, some things might have turned out differently.

I plugged in the specs for the stock 230 c.i., 9:1 compression version, the 1969 Sprint version with 250 c.i. and 10.5:1 compression, then added a 350 cfm turbo (Garrett T45 48-9) and a 500 cfm 4-bbl carb. That takes hp to 330 and torque to 325 lb-ft. It could be a fun engine if the old Chevy Stovebolt bottom end holds together.

26533

sals54
08-09-2013, 11:34 AM
For those who had not seen them... here are the pix of my old Flat 6 Turbo. I did about 110 to 115 MPH with it in my Coupe. It had a lot of power and was fun to drive once it got going. Had no flapper valve nor wastegate. Ran almost 14 lbs of boost at about 4000 RPMs.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm197/sals54/IMG_0343.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/sals54/media/IMG_0343.jpg.html)http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm197/sals54/IMG_0339.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/sals54/media/IMG_0339.jpg.html)

I think I've got a pic of it in the car. Its ugly, but sure was fun.

007
08-09-2013, 05:46 PM
Thanks for all the information. I would just like to improve the horsepower in my OHV and don't want to install any Pontiac or any other make and want to keep it all Studebaker. I does not appear that there is a lot of experience out there with the OHV six engine. I do like SALS54 picture with the turbo on it and perhaps that is the simplest way to go.
Regards,
Mark

Skybolt
08-09-2013, 07:59 PM
It is there but it depends what you want to spend. As small improvements are able to be done with not much money. Dave T. has electronic distributors. A Chevrolet valve conversion can be done with the valves for a 194 six, with the valve springs as well. This will give you a better valve ratio between intake and exhaust. The springs are a little stiffer so your RPM can go up as well. If you want it as a daily driver the a fully synchromesh transmission would be the way to go. If you use the plate, like I mentioned in my last post, you can put an easy to find Ford toploader truck transmission, for about $100, that is basically a three speed with overdrive. Put that with a 4.10 rear or similar and you will be fine. Maybe higher as it is a truck. It's a matter of matching it all for the rpm and torque. If you are handy at making stuff there are a multitude of carbs out there that can be adapted. I have run my sixes with stock, Holley 1940's, Weber progressive 2bbl's, and a Holley/Weber Economizer carb. All can be made to work and there are plenty more that can work. It's just a matter of matching it to the flow required. In a truck you have plenty of room to make manifolds and headers. You can go fuel injection with however you want to fab it up. There is no reason your OHV could not get over 200HP but will it last? The bottom end will, especially with forged pistons, but the head is the concern. Having the head inspected thoroughly and hardened seats bronze liner guides etc... will help. You can't use too much lift as half of the valves are not in the bore but off set. Duration is the key there. Forced induction is a way to overcome many of the short comings but as long as your head is not in question it would be the way to go. I had everything to do it myself but backed out at the last minute as I didn’t trust the head I had. I was not planning on using a six anyway but since the car came with one I played around with it, the Flathead, and then with an OHV in it. A turbo from many Chrysler products in the 2.5L range will cost you about $100 in usable condition and if you do your research the fuel pump can be made to sense the pressure increase and work quite well. I have all this info but it is not what I’m into at the moment so I’m a little rusty.
Bottom line is if you are doing it because it’s there and you want a unique piece then it will work. It’s just not going to be as easy as a Studebaker V8 to hop up and find parts for and they are not as easy as the SBC’s that are a dime a dozen. You have your work cut out but you will have the satisfaction of having a special auto. Any questions just keep asking. It’s easier to answer than to think of stuff for you to do.

P.S. Going back to your first post. 185... you can use the earlier pistons which there are more around. The top end power will drop of faster, past peak torque. Differences in bearings I will get into later.

Got to go.

Dan Timberlake
08-09-2013, 09:27 PM
Here is a fairly direct comparison of what happens (happened) at full throttle for one of the first turbocharged production engines, the 1963 Corvair Spyder.
http://assets.hemmings.com/story_image/60384-500-0.jpg?rev=2

That was a pretty basic system. No wastegate to limit boost, so the muffler and carb were sized to prevent over boost and even bigger cooling problems (marginal stock air cooled system) at higher rpm. A crude ignition retard system was used to prevent detonation when boosted. No intercooler, so the octane requirement was high.

What the graph does not show is the rather languid throttle response, and that the engine revved up so quick in 1st gear that boost did not build up.
On the highway in 3rd or 4th they pulled pretty good, even up hill.

International harvester took most of the same turbo parts and added them to the big 4 cylinder in the Scout for a year or 2, then moved the body backward (or was it forward?) on the frame a couple of inches to make room to start installing a V8.

Leosnake
08-12-2013, 04:29 PM
If you use the plate, like I mentioned in my last post,
Hey...Can you borrow the plate from the High School? Was it Glendora High School? Who was the instructor? I've been looking for this plate for a long time!

Skybolt
08-12-2013, 08:21 PM
I still have the plate.... Never gave that up as it took a long time to hunt one down. It's not the sort of thing most six cylinder folks are after and to me it's a hot rod sort of thing. I don't know if I would part with it but as I mentioned it should not be too hard to reproduce another. What are your plans for such a thing? It won't go behind an early six but I believe the 185 to OHV six it will work.

Leosnake
08-13-2013, 10:48 AM
I still have the plate.... Never gave that up as it took a long time to hunt one down. It's not the sort of thing most six cylinder folks are after and to me it's a hot rod sort of thing. I don't know if I would part with it but as I mentioned it should not be too hard to reproduce another. What are your plans for such a thing? It won't go behind an early six but I believe the 185 to OHV six it will work.

I have an OHV six in my truck but the plate is the regular one. I have gathered a 5 speed and a truck V8 bellhousing for the conversion but I already have 3 different 6 plates and they don't work for what I want to do.
I have a buddy in this forum who is an awesome machinist and fabricator...who can duplicate the plate for me but with an actual part in his hands it can speed up the process really fast!
I have a NOS OHV head...plans are: dual dcoes and fabricated intake and exhaust manifolds...mild camshaft from Joey at American Camshafts they're in Glendora. Arias pistons ...in Gardena...arp rods bolts...Stainless steel Valves and balance the bottom end!
I think we have contacted each other before through email before and by phone too...I might have your number on my old cell phone...Are you Len Canavan?

007
08-13-2013, 12:18 PM
Thanks SKYBOLT.
As mentioned previously I have the 700R GM transmission attached to my OHV and though a 5 speed standard would improve performance I have chosen for driveability purposes the automatic. Because of the additions such as AC, the automatic and power steering of course the little engine is taxed at times especially when driving up a grade. It is a shame that companies such as Clifford ie: 6 = 8 have chosen to build performance equipment for as an example Hudsons when there are certainly more Studebakers on the road. I do have the Thiebeault distributor in place. The throttle body fuel injection also adds to driveability but unsure what performance gains I have achieved.
If I had a large amount of money I could go and have a new head designed-of course this is a wish list. As someone remarked “Theres no replacement for displacement”. The Studebaker 170 just does not have enough cubic inches to perform any better even with all the modifications that one can do ie: bigger valves, turbo charging etc.

JoeHall
08-13-2013, 12:23 PM
Thanks SKYBOLT.
As mentioned previously I have the 700R GM transmission attached to my OHV and though a 5 speed standard would improve performance I have chosen for driveability purposes the automatic. Because of the additions such as AC, the automatic and power steering of course the little engine is taxed at times especially when driving up a grade. It is a shame that companies such as Clifford ie: 6 = 8 have chosen to build performance equipment for as an example Hudsons when there are certainly more Studebakers on the road. I do have the Thiebeault distributor in place. The throttle body fuel injection also adds to driveability but unsure what performance gains I have achieved.
If I had a large amount of money I could go and have a new head designed-of course this is a wish list. As someone remarked “Theres no replacement for displacement”. The Studebaker 170 just does not have enough cubic inches to perform any better even with all the modifications that one can do ie: bigger valves, turbo charging etc.
So you put TBI on the little fellow ? What did you use for a throttle body?

2R2
08-13-2013, 04:44 PM
Just curious, does anybody have any idea what the Granatelli's did to the six to prepare it for the Bonneville run in the fall if '63? It is my understanding that this engine received a "B" number, just like the R3s..but then again, maybe I am wrong!

I like hopped up sixes...if everyone did the easy thing in this hobby, we would all be driving '65 Mustangs, '69 Cameros, or '70 GTOs!

PackardV8
08-13-2013, 05:16 PM
It is a shame that companies such as Clifford ie: 6 = 8 have chosen to build performance equipment for as an example Hudsons when there are certainly more Studebakers on the road. . . . . As someone remarked “Theres no replacement for displacement”. The Studebaker 170 just does not have enough cubic inches to perform any better even with all the modifications that one can do ie: bigger valves, turbo charging etc.

You obviously answered your own question. A 308" Hudson Hornet Twin-H-Power was strong. The 7X race version is really strong. Nothing one can do to a 170" or a 185" is going to catch the same money spent on a 308".

jack vines

Skybolt
08-13-2013, 06:05 PM
I have an OHV six in my truck but the plate is the regular one. I have gathered a 5 speed and a truck V8 bellhousing for the conversion but I already have 3 different 6 plates and they don't work for what I want to do.
I have a buddy in this forum who is an awesome machinist and fabricator...who can duplicate the plate for me but with an actual part in his hands it can speed up the process really fast!
I have a NOS OHV head...plans are: dual dcoes and fabricated intake and exhaust manifolds...mild camshaft from Joey at American Camshafts they're in Glendora. Arias pistons ...in Gardena...arp rods bolts...Stainless steel Valves and balance the bottom end!
I think we have contacted each other before through email before and by phone too...I might have your number on my old cell phone...Are you Len Canavan?

Yes, that be me.

LeoH
08-15-2013, 01:47 PM
I guess you could fabricate a way to operate the throttles on these even if they sat on the opposite side of the engine.
:!!:
http://autos.yahoo.com/photos/the-most-interesting-cars-for-sale-at-pebble-beach-1376514699-slideshow/#crsl=%252Fphotos%252Fthe-most-interesting-cars-for-sale-at-pebble-beach-slideshow%252F1958-lister-jaguar-knobbly-prototype-photo-1376514255335.html

007
08-15-2013, 02:17 PM
My throttle body was supplied from a company called Affordable Fuel Injection www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/ . I sent them my intake manifold, they machined a plate to adapt a GM single injector throttle body system to fit the Studebaker OHV six. Everything came to me in a box with step by step instructions. I can go no further with my little six and don't want to install any turbocharging. I have put the truck up for sale in order to finance and continue with my other project a 59 lark wagon with the panel delivery kit. It has the flathead, high compression head, dual single carbs and headers. Most of those parts I purchased from Cathcart when he was still selling. Regards, Mark Coquitlam BC Canada.
I spoke with a friend who is building a 52 Chevy hardtop(can't believe I like a guy with a Chevy-ha-ha) and he is installing the straight six I think it is called The LL8 (or Vortec 4200), is a straight-6 truck engine and has a 275 HP rating. Came from a Trailblazer.

PackardV8
08-15-2013, 02:51 PM
Sorta OT, but they are both DOHC 6's and the Chevy was mentioned as a possible swap.

Once upon a time, the engine was a styling element of a car. Compare the polished aluminum and enameled cast iron of the Jaguar XK120 with plastic of the Chevy.

http://www.remarkablecars.com/main/jaguar/jaguar-00029-3.jpg

http://image.automobilemag.com/f/features/collectible_classic/1207_collectible_classic_1949_1954_jaguar_xk120/37244066+w799+h499+cr1+ar0/1949-1954-Jaguar-XK120-engine.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/GMC_Canyon_Vortec_3500_engine.jpg/280px-GMC_Canyon_Vortec_3500_engine.jpg

Now, some might rightly say the Jag engine had better be pretty, because an owner was going to be looking at it very often. The Chevy owner probably never opens the hood anyway.

jack vines

BobWaitz
08-15-2013, 03:03 PM
We lost our XO/BGC and XO/BFALT records to a Buick straight 8 in a Jaguar. We thought that was pretty funny -- the whole "You're doing it wrong, dudes. The Jaguar engine goes in the Buick!" Those Jaguar engines are real things of beauty. I'd take a 6 over the 12 any day of the week. A friend's step father had a V12 because he was a doctor. That thing leaked every fluid there was to leak. Their asphalt driveway looked like the Le Brea tar pits.

Dan Timberlake
08-15-2013, 04:27 PM
007 said - "I can go no further with my little six and don't want to install any turbocharging. I have put the truck up for sale in order to finance and continue with my other project a 59 lark wagon with the panel delivery kit. "

=====================
here is an exerpt from an interview with a Chrysler engineer (Pete Hagenbuch) who worked on several of their engine development programs, but generally tosses some very complimentary remarks about the Slant six into any discussion.

He is discussing the development of the 1 bbl basic engine into the "Super" 2 bbl engine.

"What did you do to convert it?

Well, the first and most important thing was the carburetor; it had 2 holes in it. Oh, there is so much you can do, Dave, that doesn’t even show. We messed around with the spark advance schedules and did a super calibration job on the carburetor. We had a low restriction air cleaner. Improved exhaust system but still single of course. I wanted in the worst kind of way to have a twin exhaust system because, man, will that do wonders for a 6. You put one, two and three, and four, five and six together and you run ‘em down about 6 or 8 feet and bring them together in one tailpipe and you’ve added great huge gobs of output. Engines, especially engines that are low output, the things you can do, the things you can get for just a little bit of effort are just unbelievable sometimes.


Original is at Pete Hagenbuch - interview with a Chrysler engine development engineer (part 1) http://www.allpar.com/corporate/bios/hagenbuch-interview.html#ixzz2c4j4u2hg