R2 Daytona, day 7

[JDP]

Jeff is almost done prepping all the inner sheet metal on his Daytona, just a few days labor before starting to put in back together. I spent the day cleaning up parts on the project R2 GT, and replacing the antenna on Gary's old truck. I put N8 on the payroll to help with the GT and some work on the 52 Starliner. I ordered 1 inch whitewall radials from Coker tire, and.040 over pistons and overhaul stuff from Fairborn Studebaker for the R2 GT. The R2 engine goes to the machine shop in the A.M. and the chrome leaves for Graves too. I need to retire from my retirement.





JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
58 Scotsman
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

[bams50]

One note- I believe I read in a previous post about Jeff patching an inner rust hole with fiberglass... if so, be advised that this is NOT a good repair for that! It will allow moisture to get behind it and promote rust, and eventually come loose...

Hopefully I was wrong about reading that; hard to tell from the picture. Never a quality repair- especially on a car of that caliber.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

[bams50]

One note- I believe I read in a previous post about Jeff patching an inner rust hole with fiberglass... if so, be advised that this is NOT a good repair for that! It will allow moisture to get behind it and promote rust, and eventually come loose...

Hopefully I was wrong about reading that; hard to tell from the picture. Never a quality repair- especially on a car of that caliber.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

[JDP]

Any holes of any size had metal welded in, and most of the pin holes were backed with fiberglass cloth, then long strand glass putty on the outside. with as little rust as it got in all weather driving for a few decades it'll be good for 50 years or more as a garage kept show car. I've used just the fiberglass cloth fix on pin holed floors one car that came back to me after 20 years and it was still fine. If the car was going to be driven the salt, no repair would hold up.

JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
58 Scotsman
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

[JDP]

Any holes of any size had metal welded in, and most of the pin holes were backed with fiberglass cloth, then long strand glass putty on the outside. with as little rust as it got in all weather driving for a few decades it'll be good for 50 years or more as a garage kept show car. I've used just the fiberglass cloth fix on pin holed floors one car that came back to me after 20 years and it was still fine. If the car was going to be driven the salt, no repair would hold up.

JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
58 Scotsman
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

[52 Ragtop]

OK, I'll really start something here! I worked in a fiberglass shop out in LA, I was doing the "plug" work (the piece that the mold is pulled off) anyway, The shop owner stated that Fiberglass does not stick to metal very well or very long! depends on how it's prepped (the metal) and how much vibration, but he gaurenteed it would work loose.
I asked about it when the repopped Auburn bodies were being laid up, and the guys were "lapping" the fiberglass around the steel structure and back on the bodies. That's when Bill told me FG does not stick to metal very well or very long.
I would think that with some of the epoxies that are used in collision shops,would make a better repair then FG. Welding is of course the best, but, panel adheasive is good stuff!!

Jim

[52 Ragtop]

OK, I'll really start something here! I worked in a fiberglass shop out in LA, I was doing the "plug" work (the piece that the mold is pulled off) anyway, The shop owner stated that Fiberglass does not stick to metal very well or very long! depends on how it's prepped (the metal) and how much vibration, but he gaurenteed it would work loose.
I asked about it when the repopped Auburn bodies were being laid up, and the guys were "lapping" the fiberglass around the steel structure and back on the bodies. That's when Bill told me FG does not stick to metal very well or very long.
I would think that with some of the epoxies that are used in collision shops,would make a better repair then FG. Welding is of course the best, but, panel adheasive is good stuff!!

Jim

[JDP]

Fiberglass does not stick to bare metal well at all, just like POR 15. If there is some surface rust pitting or small holes it'll hold for many,many years. BTW, the black area in the picture is not all patched rust, it's undercoating over the glass putty that he used as a seam sealer and pinhole repair. I'm actually curious at how you guys deal with heavy surface rust or pin holes on say a rear quarter ? Short of cutting away the whole panel and welding new metal to repair pitting or tiny holes, the fiberglass reinforced putty is all I know to use. Do you guys still use lead ??

JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
58 Scotsman
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

[JDP]

Fiberglass does not stick to bare metal well at all, just like POR 15. If there is some surface rust pitting or small holes it'll hold for many,many years. BTW, the black area in the picture is not all patched rust, it's undercoating over the glass putty that he used as a seam sealer and pinhole repair. I'm actually curious at how you guys deal with heavy surface rust or pin holes on say a rear quarter ? Short of cutting away the whole panel and welding new metal to repair pitting or tiny holes, the fiberglass reinforced putty is all I know to use. Do you guys still use lead ??

JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
58 Scotsman
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

[tstclr]

I prefer to cut out the offending area. For example, on my 63 Lark there was rot on the cowl that will eventually be hidden by the fender:

I cut out the offending area:

Next I made a template and butt welded it in place. After grinding the welds, I sealed it with epoxy. Some guys use fiberglass re-enforced filler here instead:


Eventually I'll use a skim coat of filler, prime and paint.
Todd


63 Lark 2dr Sedan

[tstclr]

I prefer to cut out the offending area. For example, on my 63 Lark there was rot on the cowl that will eventually be hidden by the fender:

I cut out the offending area:

Next I made a template and butt welded it in place. After grinding the welds, I sealed it with epoxy. Some guys use fiberglass re-enforced filler here instead:


Eventually I'll use a skim coat of filler, prime and paint.
Todd


63 Lark 2dr Sedan

[bams50]

I'm one of a very few who still use lead in my area.

My experience has always been as Jim said: I've never seen fiberglass on metal last long-term. Part of it is, metal and FG will expand and contract at different rates. But here's the biggest problem: Products like POR-15 are based on chemically altering rust as they coat; FG and bondo do not do that- they just cling to metal. The ingredients chemically react to alter the resin from soft to hard; but merely "stick" to the metal. Expansion/contraction rates, vibration, and capillary action will all conspire to loosen the adhesion, allowing water/condensation to get behind. The metal then rusts due to the trapped moisture, swells, and pushes the material loose. This is why you'll see bubbling at repair sites; and sometimes you'll see a bubble and push on it and it will pop like a zit and shoot water out! That tells the story... bondo is for surface-finishing in thin coats; fiberglass is for fixing fiberglass.

Cutting rusted metal back to solid and welding in new will always be the best way to fix rust. After that, the next best way is indeed lead! Lead is not that hard to use, but like anything else, requires practice. It can be finished to primer-ready without bondo with a little practice. For really difficult areas to access, i.e. next to drip rails, lead is the way to go. Nothing will ever guarantee to permanently halt rust, but for a high-value car, it's metal and lead.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

[bams50]

I'm one of a very few who still use lead in my area.

My experience has always been as Jim said: I've never seen fiberglass on metal last long-term. Part of it is, metal and FG will expand and contract at different rates. But here's the biggest problem: Products like POR-15 are based on chemically altering rust as they coat; FG and bondo do not do that- they just cling to metal. The ingredients chemically react to alter the resin from soft to hard; but merely "stick" to the metal. Expansion/contraction rates, vibration, and capillary action will all conspire to loosen the adhesion, allowing water/condensation to get behind. The metal then rusts due to the trapped moisture, swells, and pushes the material loose. This is why you'll see bubbling at repair sites; and sometimes you'll see a bubble and push on it and it will pop like a zit and shoot water out! That tells the story... bondo is for surface-finishing in thin coats; fiberglass is for fixing fiberglass.

Cutting rusted metal back to solid and welding in new will always be the best way to fix rust. After that, the next best way is indeed lead! Lead is not that hard to use, but like anything else, requires practice. It can be finished to primer-ready without bondo with a little practice. For really difficult areas to access, i.e. next to drip rails, lead is the way to go. Nothing will ever guarantee to permanently halt rust, but for a high-value car, it's metal and lead.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

[JDP]

Well, hell, you are dealing with some real rust there Bams. That does call for some welding, but I refuse to cut out a big panel that is surface rusted with some minor holes here and there. I've never had the fiberglass let go, but then again I don't cover up big rusted area. Jeff did get some repair panels from a rust free car to patch some bigger spots.

Here's the 'rust' in the before picture we are talking about, what do we cut out and weld ?



JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
58 Scotsman
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

[JDP]

Well, hell, you are dealing with some real rust there Bams. That does call for some welding, but I refuse to cut out a big panel that is surface rusted with some minor holes here and there. I've never had the fiberglass let go, but then again I don't cover up big rusted area. Jeff did get some repair panels from a rust free car to patch some bigger spots.

Here's the 'rust' in the before picture we are talking about, what do we cut out and weld ?



JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
58 Scotsman
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)