Transmission / Overdrive: transmission grinds in first and reverse

[guy]

Hello all,

I have a GT Hawk of 1964 with a manual 3-speed gearbox with overdrive.
Since a couple of days the transmission is grinding when I want to move him in 1st gear or reverse. I have to be more specific here, when I'm driving and slow down, keep the clutch pushed and move him in 1st or reverse there is no problem. But when I first releases the clutch, next pushes the clutch again and bring him to 1st gear I hear the grinding.

Some history which may help to determine the problem:
When I bought the car in September,2012 it happened it was quite difficult to change gear from 1st to 2nd.
Back in April I had once the situation where the transmission was locked on 2nd. Some searching explained to me that the 2 bars going from the steering bar to the transmission needed to be readjusted. I did that and indeed since then the transmission was functioning smoothly. Because I want to bring the car to perfect condition step by step I decided a couple of weeks ago to change the oil in the gearbox. Also to make sure there is still enough oil in it. I used a mineral transmission oil SAE-80 as stated in the shop manual.
For a couple of weeks the car ran fine, but since last weekend he started to grind when moving into 1st gear and when the clutch is released between coming to a full stop and actually moving into 1st. I tried to re-adjust the bars again but that didn't help.

Is there somebody who can help me with this one? I hope the transmission is not gone, and to be honnest I don't think so. Otherwise I would expect more indications of problems.

Thanks in advance, Guido

[Dan Timberlake]

I'd check the clutch adjustment described in the shop manual.

A rough guide is the clutch should engage or disengage a few inches before the pedal hits the floor, or however far down you can push the pedal when seated for driving

[guy]

Hi Dan, thanks for your quick response. I for sure will check this.
When the clutch is the cause, wouldn't I hear also the grinding when moving in 2nd or 3th?

[SN-60]

I'd also first check the clutch adjustment, but a 'sticky' pilot bearing can also cause a similar situation.

[bezhawk]

You usually can not shift into first gear when you are still moving (unless you are good at double clutching). The first gear in Studebaker transmissions are NOT syncronized. There is no dog clutch in the transmission that matches gear speed to input shaft speed. If you can't shift into low AT A STOP, then the clutch is not disengaging. Check your rear motor mounts, and the free play adjustment of the clutch. You may have slipping clutch release fingers on the throw out bearing release shaft. They are very lightly splined and brazed to the shaft and break loose sometimes. They can be re-welded in the proper position. Unfortunately, it involves removing the transmission to get at it.

[Flashback]

Has it been sitting a while? If so, do a few second gear starts to clean clutch, flywheel and pres plate. As has already been said check adjustment. Also idle speed could be too high.

[Dwain G.]

[QUOTE=guy;760345] I have to be more specific here, when I'm driving and slow down, keep the clutch pushed and move him in 1st or reverse there is no problem. But when I first releases the clutch, next pushes the clutch again and bring him to 1st gear I hear the grinding.

This may be a normal condition. You usually need to wait a few seconds after depressing the clutch pedal before you try to shift to 1st or reverse. Try shifting to 2nd, then immediately to 1st or reverse and see if that procedure eliminates the grinding.

[Corley]

[QUOTE=Dwain G.;760361]

I have to be more specific here, when I'm driving and slow down, keep the clutch pushed and move him in 1st or reverse there is no problem. But when I first releases the clutch, next pushes the clutch again and bring him to 1st gear I hear the grinding.

This may be a normal condition. You usually need to wait a few seconds after depressing the clutch pedal before you try to shift to 1st or reverse. Try shifting to 2nd, then immediately to 1st or reverse and see if that procedure eliminates the grinding.

Ditto. 2nd and 3rd have synchro, first and reverse do not. When you depress the clutch, it takes time for the input shaft and gears to stop turning, before you can engage first or reverse, but if you put it into 2nd or 3rd right away, this will stop the input shaft and gears from turning (keep holding the clutch depressed while doing this). Once stopped, you can then go ahead and put it into first. Of course if it still grinds, you can then look to the clutch as a trouble source, as the input shaft and gears have started turning again.

[christophe]

Hi Guy,

As you are in Belgium, I assume that your Hawk is a 6 cylinder with a T96. I made some tests with mine and found that the gearbox was smoother with 15W40 motor oil than with gearbox 80. Don't forget that a high idle can also be bothersome in this case. Personnaly, I always engage the 2nd gear to block the pinions before engaging any non synchronised gear. I noticed also that the clutch linkage can be sometines very close to the gearbox crossmember, thus empeaching a proper functionning.
Best of luck and nice day to all.

[Dan Timberlake]

Like others said, all synchro 3 speeds didn;t show up 'till the mid 60s.
Approximate time line for non Stude 3 speeds -
Ford around 64, or 67 for the smaller cars, GMs got synchro low in 66 (but there are stories GM used the Ford all synchro a little earlier), most Mopars in 69 or 70, AMCs around 68.

Good strong synchros can overcome a little clutch disc drag, for a while.

On my 4 speed cars of that vintage (all sychro US, and top 3 on british 4 speeds) it seemed like the first (when synchro) and sometimes 2nd gear synchro got "weak" ( wore out ) before 3rd or 4th, well before 100 kmiles that is so easily attained these dayz. The result was a zzz-ing when shifting quickly, or worse.

It couldn't have been teenaged driving heaped on well aged components that wore them out.

[guy]

Hello all,
First of all many thanks for the multiple replies I got on my question.
I did some testing like explained by Dwain & Corley and indeed when a wait a couple of seconds after depressing the clutch I can bring it in 1st gear without grinding. The same for the reverse.

In other words can I state my car starts to behave more normal now as it was before?

Now, I want to understand why it was not behaving like this earlier. A possible reason I can think of is that
1. I recently changed the transmission oil. Is it possible the old oil became that thick over the years that the gears stopped turning immediately when the clutch was depressed?
2. Last months the car is being used a little more in respect to the period of 2010-2012. Is it possible everything is getting back in shape now?

Even it is a 6cylinder, I really like this car. It's nice to drive, has a nice sound (I admit qua sound it can't tip a V8). Also knowing there where only about 224 6 cylinder hawk's build in the 1964 model make it kind of more unique.

[christophe]

Hi Guido,

Everything sounds fine now as you described it. I noticed more or less the same thing on my car when I drained the gearbox. It seemed like it was the first time! The gearbox was very dirty and I assume there was a little more drag with the old oil than with the new. You must always remember to manipulate the gearbox slowwwwly and kindly. Of course, I share your feelings about the car and personnaly prefer the 6 cyl.
Nice day and nice weekend to all.