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bosshoss61
07-04-2013, 09:33 AM
One thing I found very interesting was the red car in the parking lot at the meet in Colorado Springs. I had heard of such a relationship. Do any of you have any info on this relationship? I was the goofy guy in the blue cap with my son. ..... Nice Studebaker hats for 5 bucks and shirts for 6. Thanks

63 R2 Hawk
07-04-2013, 11:00 AM
Care to elaborate, since not all of us could be there???

Packard8
07-04-2013, 11:15 AM
I've heard many times over the years that the first Caddy OHV V8's were "inspired" by the Stude V8 that appeared in 1950...and I've also heard it the other way around. :confused:
I've read that the two intake manifolds were nearly interchangeable and the engines do show a strong visual similarity.

jnfweber
07-04-2013, 11:48 AM
Oldsmobile and Cadillac introduced their first OHV engines in the 1949 model year. The Olds engine was labeled 303 and the Cad 313. They were completely different engines but shared some design similarities. The Studebaker 232 V-8 was introduced on the Commander and Land Cruiser models in 1951. It was very similar in appearance to the Cadillac engine, and intake manifolds could be shared with slight modifications. Many "Studellacs" or "Caddybakers" were fitted with the Cadillac engine, which was about the same size but with greater horsepower.

studegary
07-04-2013, 02:53 PM
Studebaker used/studied the new 1949 Cadillac OHV V-8 when they designed/built the 1951 V-8.

t walgamuth
07-05-2013, 08:24 AM
The early cads were 331 CI....same block later expanded to 365 and then 390.

bezhawk
07-05-2013, 10:33 AM
All the engineers started designing about the same time period, during WWII. It's no coincedence they look similar. Sude engines were not designed AFTER the Cadillac, but concurrently. Testing took many months it was't decided......hey look They have a V8 ...let's design one too. The Stude was designed stout to take advantage of high compression. They were promised high octane after the war because the fuel was developed for supercharged aircraft engines. This high octane never made it to the streets in the 50's like promised. If you read the SAE papers on the development of the Stude V8 they out line that even hemi heads were considered, but were deemed too costly. So I take it after all the different talk of development and engineering prototypes that this did not happen overnight.
Read Stanwood Sparrows SAE papers and find out for yourselves the history of the Studebaker V8.

bosshoss61
07-05-2013, 11:16 AM
Thanks bezhawk for the info, The car at the show was a beautiful red color, on the east side of the parking lot. At first I thought it to be a Studebaker because that was the logo lettering on front. Then off to the side was the infamous Cadillac emblem. The motor was a newer V-8. The car actually reminded me of the big fin Hawk without the big fins on back. Beautiful car. I just got back, let me see if I can produce a photo.....

brngarage
07-05-2013, 11:21 AM
I believe the red car being discussed had a Cadillac Northstar DOHC engine.

hausdok
07-05-2013, 12:36 PM
Studillac?

Packard8
07-05-2013, 12:41 PM
All the engineers started designing about the same time period, during WWII. It's no coincedence they look similar. Sude engines were not designed AFTER the Cadillac, but concurrently. Testing took many months it was't decided......hey look They have a V8 ...let's design one too. The Stude was designed stout to take advantage of high compression. They were promised high octane after the war because the fuel was developed for supercharged aircraft engines. This high octane never made it to the streets in the 50's like promised. If you read the SAE papers on the development of the Stude V8 they out line that even hemi heads were considered, but were deemed too costly. So I take it after all the different talk of development and engineering prototypes that this did not happen overnight.
Read Stanwood Sparrows SAE papers and find out for yourselves the history of the Studebaker V8.

Good info, thanks!

I've read that the designers anticipated compression ratios of 12:1 or higher, hence such features as forged crank & rods and the number of head bolts surrounding each cylinder.

The fact that the "little" 232 cid original design could evolve into the high output R series 13 years later with very few changes is a testament to the engineers' forward looking design.

PackardV8
07-05-2013, 01:44 PM
The other fact to remember is both engineers and body designers moved from one company to another. The popular and famous '49-51 Fords were designed over a few nights on Bob Bourke's kitchen table by a group of Stude designers to help one who was out of work. He needed something for a job application at Ford. Ford Styling Chief loved what he saw and it was selected over the in-house designs. Of course, the designer who brought it got a job with Ford.

There is a Stude legend they hired one of the younger engineers who had worked on the Cadillac OHV8 project during WWII. GM was using DOD time and money to design post-war cars and engines. That's how they were able to roll out the Olds and Cad OHV8s in 1949 when Stude and Chrysler couldn't get going until 1951. It's not just a coincidence the Cadillac and Studebaker V8 intake manifolds and rocker arms almost interchange.

jack vines

studegary
07-05-2013, 02:20 PM
Studebaker used/studied the new 1949 Cadillac OHV V-8 when they designed/built the 1951 V-8.

I probably should have stated that this is what I remember from a conversation with Church (Mr. Churchill) many decades ago.
Studebaker had information on the new Cadillac OHV V-8 in about 1947, IIRC.

ed ellis
07-07-2013, 08:28 AM
Perhaps more to the point Stan Sparrow who designed the Studebaker V8 had worked at Cadillac on the team that developed the Cadillac V8

jeds55
07-07-2013, 08:43 AM
They really do fit!

RadioRoy
07-08-2013, 12:49 PM
The other fact to remember is both engineers and body designers moved from one company to another. The popular and famous '49-51 Fords were designed over a few nights on Bob Bourke's kitchen table by a group of Stude designers to help one who was out of work. He needed something for a job application at Ford. Ford Styling Chief loved what he saw and it was selected over the in-house designs. Of course, the designer who brought it got a job with Ford.

jack vines

I thought the same guys did the design on Holden Koto's kitchen table.

studebakerjoe
07-08-2013, 09:20 PM
Husband Joe has a caddy offenhauser manifold in his56

Studebaker Wheel
07-09-2013, 01:51 AM
Perhaps more to the point Stan Sparrow who designed the Studebaker V8 had worked at Cadillac on the team that developed the Cadillac V8

Ed; Not sure who you are thinking of but it was definitely not Stan Sparrow. He hired in with Studebaker in 1927 and was with them until his tragic death in a car accident in Massachusetts on August 14, 1952 (at age 64). At the time he was president of the Society of Automotive Engineers. Please see my Almanac column in TW for July 2004 for more information.

ed ellis
07-09-2013, 08:22 PM
Dick,. Thx for the correction. I'll check my source and get back to you. Ed