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TMAN0950
04-18-2013, 05:17 PM
How important is it to have a number matching engine? I know this is a very vague. So lets say you are looking at two Avanti both in the same condition. One matching engine and the other a nonmatching engine. How much different in price? Then say they are both being judged, what then? Thanks

StudeRich
04-18-2013, 05:40 PM
This question has a whole LOT to do with the particular Car involved, with a Lark 4 Door Sedan, I don't see how it would matter.
On the other hand an Avanti is all about it's special High Performance ENGINE and it's a slightly pricey Sports Car, so in this case I think it matters quite a bit. To some buyers it may not, and how much it is worth has everything to do with that.

It would be hard to place a value on it, but it definitely needs to be a Real "R" numbered Engine with the all right parts on it.
Maybe a rough guess would be minus $1000.00 probably depending on the total price as well.

As far as being judged, we do not normally look for a Production Order to tell if it is the ORIGINAL Engine or not.
Of course a Lark/Hawk or RS vs R numbered Engine might and SHOULD be noticed and deducted a few points for.

Also it is VERY hard to find 2 cars with EXACTLY the same condition, there HAS to be some details that add more value to one over the other besides the Engine.
Like the condition of the frame or hog troughs, Interior, Paint, Power Train, Options etc.

qsanford
04-18-2013, 05:46 PM
It might make more of a difference in value if the Lark originally came with an "R" engine.
This question has a whole LOT to do with the particular Car involved, with a Lark 4 Door Sedan, I don't see how it would matter.
On the other hand an Avanti is all about it's special High Performance ENGINE and it's a slightly pricey Sports Car, so in this case I think it matters quite a bit. To some buyers it may not, and how much it is worth has everything to do with that.

It would be hard to place a value on it, but it definitely needs to be a Real "R" numbered Engine with the all right parts on it.
Maybe a rough guess would be minus $1000.00 probably depending on the total price as well.

As far as being judged, we do not normally look for a Production Order to tell if it is the ORIGINAL Engine or not.
Of course a Lark/Hawk or RS vs R numbered Engine might and SHOULD be noticed and deducted a few points for.

E. Davis
04-18-2013, 05:53 PM
I think it is more important that it be the PROPER engine for the car. Other make engines transplanted in Studebakers is a definate turn off for a person looking for an original or slightly modified classic car. I have had more than several inquiries at car shows from people wanting to buy my Hawk but none have asked if it had matching numbers. Most were more interested in the price and overall condition.

StudeRich
04-18-2013, 06:04 PM
It might make more of a difference in value if the Lark originally came with an "R" engine.

Not exactly, because they were numbered as Jet Thrust Engines, JT, and JTS, that would be why I included ALL Lark Hawk Engines in my post, all are obviously WRONG, Std. 289 or JT. No matter if they LOOK like an Avanti Engine or not.

stall
04-18-2013, 06:43 PM
E. Davis has hit the nail on the head; a Buick engine in a Speedster is not inspiring. I will say that on My Corvette a matching numbers car makes a really silly difference. Thats due to what I think is the very illogical decision by Chevy to number / date almost every part and serial number. The key word in Mr. Davis's answer is PROPER imho.



I think it is more important that it be the PROPER engine for the car. Other make engines transplanted in Studebakers is a definate turn off for a person looking for an original or slightly modified classic car. I have had more than several inquiries at car shows from people wanting to buy my Hawk but none have asked if it had matching numbers. Most were more interested in the price and overall condition.

SScopelli
04-18-2013, 07:19 PM
TMAN0950 has the 63 R1 Skytop Lark 1 of 2 made for 63 on e-bay.. So I'd say the value of him finding the original motor to his car was monumental!

Actually the way he put it He found the R1 engine for his Hawk and then he found the car. So for TMAN, initially it was not important that his Hawk have a numbers matching car, but like me, wants the more powerful motor.

Here is the problem with collectors. I think he has a cool car. I like Larks. I like most years of Larks, but like many collectors, just are not to fond of 4 doors.
If that were 2 door, or even had more factory 'R' goodies on the car like a 160 mph speedo, Bucket seat, 4 speed I'd get the Kids college fund out to get it.
There is another 63 2dr 'R' Lark up Northwest that has this same issue, lack of R goodies.
So to have a matching number pedigree R car 4 door Skytop Lark is the balancing act of the particular buyer.

People must be drooling over the R1 motor and asking to separate, but I agree, he should keep the two together.

I truly sold an airplane engine that included an airplane.

StudeDave57
04-18-2013, 07:44 PM
There are some who will agree with me, and there are others who wont, but here it goes...

Are there some cars/trucks that loose value without their original engine? Well, of course!!!
Are there some cars/trucks that have no value without their orginal engine? Maybe.

I believe that if you are lucky enough to still have the orginal engine in your car- no matter what it is- every effort should be made to keep the two together. It doesn't have to live under the hood, but don't toss it just 'cuz. Preserve it and stash it under the bench for the day you sell, should that day ever come. Why? Well- one day it might be worth that much more to the next owner or the one after them. These days StudeFolks don't tend to care unless it's one of those 'high end' rides as have already been mentioned, but one day the rest will catch up to where other makes are now.
And when that happens- the numbers will matter.






StudeDave '57 :cool:

jbwhttail
04-18-2013, 07:52 PM
Stude Dave57:

I could not agree more, there was a day matching numbers did not matter...... today and in the future it will matter, matter will be $$$$.

candbstudebakers
04-18-2013, 08:30 PM
My 64 full package R-2 super hawk yes my 63 lark standard with clone R-l no and so on and so on.

SN-60
04-18-2013, 08:48 PM
If factory production orders were not available for Studebakers, then original engine numbers would have little significance. But since the PO's ARE readily available.....in My opinion it DOES carry some weight to be able to say and verify that the engine in ANY Studebaker model was installed in that car/truck when it was 'born'. (Monetary value?....maybe...Historical value?.....definitely!)

8E45E
04-18-2013, 09:38 PM
There are some who will agree with me, and there are others who wont, but here it goes...

Are there some cars/trucks that loose value without their original engine? Well, of course!!!
Are there some cars/trucks that have no value without their orginal engine? Maybe.

I believe that if you are lucky enough to still have the orginal engine in your car- no matter what it is- every effort should be made to keep the two together. It doesn't have to live under the hood, but don't toss it just 'cuz. Preserve it and stash it under the bench for the day you sell, should that day ever come. Why? Well- one day it might be worth that much more to the next owner or the one after them. These days StudeFolks don't tend to care unless it's one of those 'high end' rides as have already been mentioned, but one day the rest will catch up to where other makes are now.
And when that happens- the numbers will matter.

Dave, VERY well said. My next door neighbor restored a '67 Mustang which originally had a 289, and he replaced it with a modern Ford V6 of some sort. I tried to convince him to keep the original 289 for that very reason, but I think he did end up selling it off.

Craig

edpjr
04-18-2013, 10:05 PM
It matters to me. I've been looking for Avanti engine RS-1581 for 4 years now...

rockne10
04-18-2013, 10:37 PM
Pretty much agree all around. If you were to find the one '51 Commander business coupe and the engine it had matched the build sheet, that's significant. If you have a '63 Cruiser with a 289 that doesn't match there is no significant difference. Install a 259 in the Cruiser and you've created a bastard. Install a 289 in a '53 Coupe and keep the original 232 under wraps=value added.

SScopelli
04-18-2013, 11:08 PM
Any one looking for R-1238, it is located here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/STUDEBAKER-R1-289-V8-ENGINE-AVANTI-168-/281095302764

PackardV8
04-19-2013, 08:58 AM
So lets say you are looking at two Avanti both in the same condition. One matching engine and the other a nonmatching engine. How much different in price?

JMHO - a #1 car, maybe $3,000 more. A typical driver R1, $0.

And let's be clear, we're just discussing block serial number. If someone has put a SBC or a junk 232" that's a huge minus. Even a good 259" is a big minus. I know of a good car previously discussed here with a 259" which has been slow to move. An otherwise correct full-flow 289" with a different serial number, no biggie.

jack vines

WCP
04-19-2013, 09:26 AM
In my opinion, engine numbers are not that significant. Keep in mind that the number only identifies the original block and blocks can be changed for whatever reason. The important issue is whether the complete engine is technically correct for that specific car. I believe there are several R and JT engined cars that have had block changes and thus lack the R or JT identification but have all of the original internal and external kit and are every bit as valuable as a "number matching" equivalent. When buying a car, you can't take things at face value. You have to do your own research.

warrlaw1
04-19-2013, 10:09 AM
Agreed. I bought my car as a complete basket case and was willing to hotrod it until I ordered the P.O. and found out all the parts were original. The engine and been run dry of oil, locked up, then frozen. The block was tanked and fluxed and appeared good so I went stock with the car. Glad I did. What a thrill when it was finished to drive a 55 car as it rolled out in 55.

SScopelli
04-19-2013, 05:50 PM
Maybe watching some car auctions might shed some light on this.

If you are a person that wants to hop in his Stude and drive to some gathering to eat a hot dog or two, matching numbers is not even an Issue.

I disagree that a Chevy motor brings no value. See this link:

http://www.carcraft.com/featuredvehicles/116_0503_1960_studebaker_lark_ls1/

It sold for $67,000. But the guy who bought it is not a "Lover of Studebaker's" he was just a collector looking for a good resto-mod..

If this car was a numbers matching 259, with stock interior, 3on the tree, what $7,000, because its really nothing special.

But you are saying that an R car, like the poster has, without its numbers matching R motor would be the same price as if it were matching?
To a person on this form, I agree it would not matter, but to a collector it would be a no sale.

Corvanti
04-19-2013, 07:25 PM
having been in the "Corvette world" a few years ago, i did find that a lot of the people involved were not so friendly until one saw that my numbers matched. then some would try to find fault elsewhere (imagine that)!!! ;)

as others have stated, a number matching Studebaker is great, but the condition of the entire vehicle - at near the same price - must be considered.

i'd love to put in a Studebaker V8 in my '51 in the future, and start with trying to find a "correct for the year" engine. wouldn't rule out a newer engine - but i'd keep the number matching engine if i ever thought about selling her. that won't happen until i'm gone, and my daughter has to deal with it. or someone offers me a ridiculous high price for her, and i could purchase another Stude/'58 Packard on "my list"...:)

Roscomacaw
04-19-2013, 07:36 PM
Also remember that with the 64s, there could've been MULTIPLE engines built with the same engine number on any given day of production. This is cause they stopped using sequential numbers and only used a model and date code. For instance, I had a JTJ313 here awhile back. JT for Jet Thrust, "J" for September, 3 for 1963 and 13 for the thirteenth day of this month (September). ALL JT engines built on this date would have been numbered alike. SO - if you're looking for a 1964 engine with the correct number, there's at least a better chance of finding such with more than one with that particular number!

BobPalma
04-20-2013, 07:36 AM
Also remember that with the 64s, there could've been MULTIPLE engines built with the same engine number on any given day of production. This is cause they stopped using sequential numbers and only used a model and date code. For instance, I had a JTJ313 here awhile back. JT for Jet Thrust, "J" for September, 3 for 1963 and 13 for the thirteenth day of this month (September). ALL JT engines built on this date would have been numbered alike. SO - if you're looking for a 1964 engine with the correct number, there's at least a better chance of finding such with more than one with that particular number!

To your point, Bob; remember several years ago when someone happened to have the same 1964 engine number that was the basis for Ron Hall's 200-MPH record-setting Avanti engine?

The reader/member wrote Jim Pepper and asked if he had the engine from Ron Hall's Avanti! Of course he did not, but he did indeed have one with the identical 1964 model year engine date code, so it does happen.

That was the first time I had ever heard of that situation. :woot: BP

SN-60
04-20-2013, 08:07 AM
This thread reminds Me of the post that I added to the "1955 Speedster Inquiry " thread. I mentioned that if anyone in Studeland happens to own President Speedster #7167047, it has an Avanti R-1 under the hood (in disguise) and I have that car's original short block. QUESTION....Is that Speedster more interesting/valuable with the R-1, or should it's owner seek out the factory installed 259 and put that engine back in?..Thoughts?

rkapteyn
04-20-2013, 08:22 AM
With most studebakers the matching number that really matter is the vin number on the title matches that on the title.

jackb
04-20-2013, 10:31 AM
....we're heading into a marque - shift in our club/gang/group as we speak. We struggle to keep the club alive with fresh blood and new members. Long gone is the notion of it being a "driver's club". We might bring it up from time to time, but realistically, follow the tech threads and see cars are only travelling 1000-2000 miles per year at best and that usually involves a national or regional meet. So the cars/trucks are not being driven. Further the survival notion of accepting non-stock Studes or modified (no opinion here) vehicles is evident. I believe we will eventually have 2 classes in our club: highly, creative, modified vehicles vs. stock, original matching numbers survivors or Queens. I speak to original Hawks (Goldens) and upscaled Avantis. Its already going that way......You won't need matching numbers in the former group, and you will definitely need matching numbers in the latter.

JBOYLE
04-20-2013, 11:24 AM
JMHO - a #1 car, maybe $3,000 more. A typical driver R1, $0
jack vines


I kind of agree....and kind of disagree....it boils down to words...
I wouldn't pay any MORE for a nice R-1 which has its original engine...but I'd pay LESS for a car (even a nice driver) without its original engine.
To me, whether a car has its original engine (no matter how prosaic) tell you a lot about the way its been driven and maintained....to say nothing of originality.

StudeRich
04-20-2013, 06:02 PM
This thread reminds Me of the post that I added to the "1955 Speedster Inquiry " thread. I mentioned that if anyone in Studeland happens to own President Speedster #7167047, it has an Avanti R-1 under the hood (in disguise) and I have that car's original short block. QUESTION....Is that Speedster more interesting/valuable with the R-1, or should it's owner seek out the factory installed 259 and put that engine back in?..Thoughts?

I think that cars like Golden Hawks, GH 400's, Speedsters, Packard Hawks and most Avantis are "Special" enough that it definitely DOES matter.
So NO I do not think that Speedster is worth more with an R1, sure It would make a nice driver but if it's show quality it is worth LESS, or at least less desirable.

It is the same with the LEATHER Interior, on these few rare Cars that all had it, because THAT is what made them "Special", almost worthless if it is without. :(

SN-60
04-20-2013, 06:16 PM
I think that cars like Golden Hawks, GH 400's, Speedsters, Packard Hawks and most Avantis are "Special" enough that it definitely DOES matter.
So NO I do not think that Speedster is worth more with an R1, sure It would make a nice driver but if it's show quality it is worth LESS, or at least less desirable.

It is the same with the LEATHER Interior, on these few rare Cars that all had it, because THAT is what made them "Special", almost worthless if it is without. :(

I hear You Rich......Certain models are 'more car' if the engine the car left the factory with is still under the hood.

SScopelli
04-21-2013, 12:35 AM
I hear You Rich......Certain models are 'more car' if the engine the car left the factory with is still under the hood.

The description of the wolf in sheep's clothing makes it interesting to Good ol' Stude folk. But a collector of cars that park them in a garage or hold them for a year or two to make a buck, No!

They, like your Vette buddies want the car as in factory configuration. It makes it more interesting if it is a Pedigree instead of a base model car.
A AKC Poodle is worth more than a Cocker-Poo, which for those who don't know, is a designer dog...

I see I'm not the only one that has lied to a friend that you have a Stude with a 259 (stamped block) with R1 internals, and you beet his 302 Mustang..
And since the Mustang guy doent know you can do that, he is at a disadvantage. Another point for numbers matching. The collector does not want to rip the motor apart to see what is really there.

Also JT News list cars with out motors and motors with out cars, so they must think it is important as well.
http://www.studebaker-info.org/JTN/JTNEWS/jtn17.htm

8E45E
04-21-2013, 12:44 AM
It makes it more interesting if it is a Pedigree instead of a base model car.

If one were to do a graph of the importance of 'matching number' cars, it can rate from 'low' to 'very high'.

A six cylinder automatic Blue Mist '63 Lark 4 door where the original engine was seized and replaced with another similar engine would no doubt rate 'low', but The Whistler with its factory order status and susequent racing provenence would of course rate 'very high'.

Craig

SScopelli
04-21-2013, 12:49 AM
If one were to do a graph of the importance of 'matching number' cars, it can rate from 'low' to 'very high'.

A six cylinder automatic Blue Mist '63 Lark 4 door where the original engine was seized and replaced with another similar engine would no doubt rate 'low', but The Whistler with its factory order status and subsequent racing provenence would of course rate 'very high'.

Craig
That is an Excellent point and example.

TMAN0950
04-21-2013, 06:58 AM
So I think we are saying the high end cars, the engine # madders and the low end cars it does not. I would agree with that. I have a 59 Studebaker pickup that has a replacement engine in it and I am very happy with that, but I also have the original engine which I decided would cost to much to rebuild at this time. I like having the original engine. I have taken the pickup to a few shows (non Studebaker show) and no one has ever ask me if it had the original engine and most of the time it wins a trophy. My 62 Hawk, I tried to find the original motor but could not find it. So that was when I decided to build up the R-1 that belongs to the Cruiser. I am kind of a stock kind of car guy, but because I could not find the original motor I was going wild and put a R-1 with 5 speed in and disc brakes. I also restored a 1966 Corvette and received NCRS Top Flight award two times and to them numbers were every thing. I also know that in the Corvette world some have restamped the engine number. What do you think about doing that. My truck has no engine number on it I could stamp a number there, ( I would not do that ), What do you think about restamping and what about rebody a car? thanks for all the in put. Terry

8E45E
04-21-2013, 07:02 AM
So I think we are saying the high end cars, the engine # madders and the low end cars it does not. I would agree with that. I have a 59 Studebaker pickup that has a replacement engine in it and I am very happy with that, but I also have the original engine which I decided would cost to much to rebuild at this time. I like having the original engine.

If its a Scotsman with a V8, its very rare!

Craig

TMAN0950
04-21-2013, 07:14 AM
Hi Craig, mine is a Deluxe.

DEEPNHOCK
04-21-2013, 08:11 AM
This is one thread that a poll would have been interesting....

This thread is so full of "ifs" it make a head spin....

"If" it is a truly rare item....maybe.
"If" the buyer is willing to pay a premium...definitely.
"If" the owner is a truly responsible Studebaker historian....maybe.
(You could substitute "anal" for "responsible Studebaker historian" and it would still be....maybe)
"If" one were use matching numbers to bring the auction level hype for premium selling dollars....maybe.

But....
Stude's rarely generate the hype at auctions that the magazine popularity driven cars and trucks do.
Most Stude buyers are CASO's and want it all matching, but won't pay the premium price addition.
Heck, it was Stude types that took the engines out of those Stude's in the first place.

My opinion?
On historical cars... Sure.
Aunt Bee's Lark is a perfect example.
The matching serial number adds at least a hundred bucks in value to a Lark that's $15,000+ over valued:rolleyes:.
Just an opinion...
Jeffhttp://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/images/icons/icon6.png

8E45E
04-21-2013, 09:00 AM
"If" it is a truly rare item....maybe.

IF only I saved my '61 Cruiser I parted out back in 1979! :( Had I know how rare they are, I would have kept it.

Craig

64studeavanti
04-21-2013, 10:03 AM
This is a timely discussion for me. I have a very nice 64 Avanti with the original engine. It did have a problem with low oil pressure which turned out to be worn main bearings/journals - definitely repairable. About a year ago, I acquired a 'P' engine built by Nimish Solanki from a friend of mine (he decided to go the LS1 route). The 'P' engine is now a 308 with the Ford 6 cylinder forged pistons, a roller cam, roller tipped rockers, ported heads with r3 valves, r3 headers, LS r3 manifold (thanks again Jeff for fixing it for me), an R3 airbox, and of course a Paxton blower (unfortunately it's a SN89). My question is: do I repair and install the original R1? install the 308? keep the r1 block and move some of the 'speed' parts to it? When does it stop being the original engine? I have some time to make this decision as I decided to spruce up the engine bay before re-installing the engine. But, I would rather do this once! I really need some advice.

plwindish
04-21-2013, 10:59 AM
64studeavanti, $-wise, it makes more sense to rebuild the original motor for the 64. My 2 cents into the game is to keep the car original. If the car is not original when it comes into your hands, then other options are available for you. If you are interested in more money for the car when its time to part with it, originality will get you more bucks. Of course you can always pull the motor, hanging on to it and putting the 308 in and enjoying it until you want to go back to original. Your car, your toys and money, your decision.

PackardV8
04-21-2013, 11:25 AM
Unfortunately, after fifty years, a nice original '64 R1 still doesn't bring big bucks on the open market. A new Solanki-built R3 clone engine is worth at least half as much as a nice R1. For most potential buyers, having that installed and properly sorted would definitely increase the resale.

Again, unfortunately, it wouldn't increase the net as much as the two separately. A seller would net more for the original R1 car and the built engine sold individually. That's not taking into account the labor to install and the expertise to tune the modified engine.

I deal with this all the time on my own cars/trucks and those engines I build for others. We do it for the fun of it, not because we expect to profit on the resale.

jack vines

bezhawk
04-21-2013, 01:22 PM
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.........deleted

64studeavanti
04-21-2013, 02:44 PM
It's unfortunate, but with very few exceptions, our Studes do not attract the general collector. So we we kind of trade around a closed community - with the occasional newbie. My wife and I joke (sometime seriously) that if we sell with the Avanti, we could get more from it in parts than we could get selling it complete. I agree, that these cars are not investments, but a hobby and as such one shouldn't expect to profit. I guess that I'll just sleep on it some more and make a call. In any case, I will keep the original engine just in case.

SN-60
06-08-2013, 08:29 PM
In my opinion, engine numbers are not that significant. Keep in mind that the number only identifies the original block and blocks can be changed for whatever reason. The important issue is whether the complete engine is technically correct for that specific car. I believe there are several R and JT engined cars that have had block changes and thus lack the R or JT identification but have all of the original internal and external kit and are every bit as valuable as a "number matching" equivalent. When buying a car, you can't take things at face value. You have to do your own research.

And the research would certainly be much easier for the prospective buyer if the replacement (or "Tribute") block were 'tagged' indicating what's been done (or NOT done) to it!!

Flashback
06-08-2013, 08:41 PM
I think it may have been said earlier, but, with a few words, the answer is: "It depends on the buyer". If I were buying, it would mean a great deal to me. If some others were buying, maybe,not so much.