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View Full Version : Chasing Points - When 400 Points Isn't Good Enough



DEEPNHOCK
04-16-2013, 06:48 AM
Interesting comment at the end....

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/04/15/4182751/collector-finds-54-studebaker.html

(snippet copy - see link for entire article)

Don Armacost, Jr., was showing a friendís friend through his Studebaker collection when the visitor asked if there was one model that he would like to have but didnít.

http://media.kansascity.com/smedia/2013/04/15/10/40/11EPHy.St.81.jpegTOM STRONGMAN The odometer still shows less than 14,000 original miles.
http://media.kansascity.com/smedia/2013/04/15/10/40/uSMlV.St.81.jpegTOM STRONGMAN The new-old stock air cleaner was the crowning touch for a renewed engine compartment.
http://media.kansascity.com/smedia/2013/04/15/10/40/HkZbY.St.81.jpegTOM STRONGMAN From left: Don Armacost, Jr., Brian Neher, Brian Veal and Christopher Mather.
http://media.kansascity.com/smedia/2013/04/15/10/40/i5WVL.St.81.jpegTOM STRONGMAN The interior is totally original. Only the seat padding has been replaced.
http://media.kansascity.com/smedia/2013/04/15/10/40/xsoqn.St.81.jpegTOM STRONGMAN The Studebaker Conestoga wagon was produced in 1954 and 1955. At left are, from left: Don Armacost, Jr., Brian Neher, Brian Veal and Christopher Mather.

č (http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/#storyGallery)õ (http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/#storyGallery)

ďIf the right Conestoga wagon came along,Ē Armacost said, ďIíd be interested.Ē Armacost had driven a friendís Conestoga twice at the Studebaker meet in New Zealand and liked it.
ďI have one,Ē replied the visitor. ďA 1954 Conestoga with just over 13,000 miles.Ē
Of course, Armacost quickly made a deal, the car became his and a light blue wagon in amazingly original condition soon arrived at Armacostís restoration shop. The two-door Conestoga, built on a 116.5-inch wheelbase car chassis, was in production for two years, 1954 and 1955. The name was chosen to honor the heritage of Studebaker wagons.
The car originally sold to I. Wm. Eppleman in Harrisburg, Pa., for $2,981.
Brian Neher, Brian Veal and Christopher Mather of the Armacost Museum at Peterson Manufacturing in Grandview tackled the project with the thoroughness and desire for perfection that is reflected in the cars they restore. Although the low-mileage car was in excellent condition initially, the body came off the frame, the mechanical bits were disassembled and every part was given a close inspection.
The engine was in fine shape. The cylinders still had factory cross-hatching. The block was cleaned and everything reassembled. The frame and running gear were stripped to bare metal and repainted. The body remained in original condition whenever possible and the original paint was polished to perfection. An inner fender had to be replaced, and the front fenders were painted. New old stock (NOS) replacement parts were used whenever possible.
Sound insulation was laid throughout the interior of the body, and now the doors slam as quietly as those of a new luxury sedan.
The front seat padding had sagged so it was replaced, although the seat cover itself remains completely original. So does the back seat. Air conditioning was added so that Armacost can be comfortable driving the car in the summer.
The wagonís cargo area is surprisingly spacious. Its size is similar to that of competitors such as the Ford Ranch Wagon, Chevrolet Handyman and Dodge Suburban.
The wagon was painstakingly reassembled. Armacost had an NOS air cleaner that he bought at a swap meet several years ago and it fit perfectly.


At last summerís Studebaker Drivers Club International Meet in South Bend, Ind., the wagon received a perfect 400-point award. Armacost and his staff think the judges werenít critical enough because two other cars also received perfect scores, but a perfect score seems fitting to me.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2013/04/15/4182751/collector-finds-54-studebaker.html#storylink=cpy

JimC
04-16-2013, 08:50 AM
For some reason the whole link didn't parse there. Here's a link (http://www.kansascity.com/2013/04/15/4182751/collector-finds-54-studebaker.html#storylink=cpy).

Wow. Just wow. This is absolutely beautiful. Worth every one of those 400 points, and then some!

bezhawk
04-16-2013, 10:41 AM
Why weren't points deducted for the AC?

Pat Dilling
04-16-2013, 11:16 AM
I saw that car at South Bend and studied it for quite a while. It is quite spectacular and I am not surprised it scored that well. There was one other Conestoga at the meet, an Ambulet. I was surprised there were only those two, I was hoping to see some more. Certainly inspires me to work on mine, though it will never be a 400 pointer, nor do I want it to be one.

brngarage
04-16-2013, 11:25 AM
How can that car get 400 points with a 12 volt electrical system?

BobPalma
04-16-2013, 12:36 PM
As to 400 points with air conditioning and 12-volt electrics: He may have placed it in the Custom/Modified Division for just that reason, although I do not know that for sure.

That's the thing to do if you want a high score and not be dinged for authenticity infractions. ;) BP

studegary
04-16-2013, 02:16 PM
I noticed the 12 volt system right off and the A/C. Bob P's response makes sense.

What is the rectangular box with modern wires mounted on the fan shroud?

I just went back and checked. Somehow it got 400 points in a stock class - Division 2. That wouldn't have happened if I was judging it. It is a nice wagon, but I would think 385-390 points.

Studedude
04-16-2013, 02:37 PM
What a beautiful car!


At last summerís Studebaker Drivers Club International Meet in South Bend, Ind., the wagon received a perfect 400-point award. Armacost and his staff think the judges werenít critical enough because two other cars also received perfect scores....


Nice high gloss paint in the engine compartment. Point deduct... over restored! Just as I would do it!

Skinnys Garage
04-16-2013, 03:14 PM
At last summerís Studebaker Drivers Club International Meet in South Bend, Ind., the wagon received a perfect 400-point award. Armacost and his staff think the judges werenít critical enough because two other cars also received perfect scores, but a perfect score seems fitting to me.I think this can be read a couple different ways.

One way (as some have here) is the owners thought they had the best car and should have stood alone with a perfect score.

I tend to read it another way, that they actually didn't think it deserved the 400 points and thought the judges were a little easy on everyone including them.

As we have seen here time and again, the written word can be tricky.

GThawkwind
04-16-2013, 04:33 PM
I would probably agree with Skinny on this one, I really like this, cause I don't like restored cars that were perfect originals to start, I tstand by the "cars only original once" mentallity for show cars. where as this was car is still original just freshened up, then again show cars aren't for me.

41 Frank
04-16-2013, 06:47 PM
I agree with others here that this vehicle should have been in custom class for too many non authentic items under the hood. While you can choose to go in stock class, you are usually docked for non authentic items. Seems like that was overlooked here. Judging is subjective and the same vehicle will attain different results at different meets, I can testify to that. This is mostly due to the SDC not having enough knowledgeable judging volunteers. I own a vehicle that has won two best of division, back to back and the following year it eeked out a 2nd place. Each time after a meet I fixed all the items that received deductions, the vehicle had not deteriorated between meets. Very discouraging to say the least.

r1lark
04-16-2013, 06:58 PM
What is the rectangular box with modern wires mounted on the fan shroud?
Looks like a headlight relay......normally used on 6 volt cars to ensure full battery voltage goes to the headlights. Eliminates voltage drop through the headlight switch.

JoeHall
04-16-2013, 07:23 PM
Why weren't points deducted for the AC?

Also, why weren't points deducted for the incorrect radiator hose clamp?

Studeous
04-16-2013, 07:36 PM
Why weren't points deducted for the AC?
Also, why weren't points deducted for the incorrect radiator hose clamp?

Cuz it's Purdy!

JoeHall
04-16-2013, 07:39 PM
Why weren't points deducted for the AC?
Also, why weren't points deducted for the incorrect radiator hose clamp?

Cuz it's Purdy!

In that case, every Stude is a 400 point vehicle, cuz they're all purdy :)

raprice
04-16-2013, 07:47 PM
Although I respect all those people who love automobile judging, I just enjoy driving and taking care of my vintage cars. I don't give a hoot about judging. Is this a great country or what?
Rog

JoeHall
04-16-2013, 07:56 PM
I firmly believe every Stude should be judged, and practice what I preach. Before leaving for any Stude meet, I always judge mine before pulling out of the driveway, and they are always 400 points. Then, if asked at the meet whether I want my car judged, I answer, "no thanks, I already judged it myself". That answer has been accepted every time, though sometimes with quizzical looks.

41 Frank
04-16-2013, 08:21 PM
Worm drive hose clamps, or aircraft type hose clamps as they are sometimes called have been allowed as substitutions for original type clamps for some time. Todays replacement radiator hoses are thinner and therefore the older clamps tend not to seal well.


Also, why weren't points deducted for the incorrect radiator hose clamp?

BobPalma
04-16-2013, 08:23 PM
I firmly believe every Stude should be judged, and practice what I preach. Before leaving for any Stude meet, I always judge mine before pulling out of the driveway, and they are always 400 points. Then, if asked at the meet whether I want my car judged, I answer, "no thanks, I already judged it myself". That answer has been accepted every time, though sometimes with quizzical looks.

Good answer, Joe. ;) BP

JoeHall
04-16-2013, 09:07 PM
Worm drive hose clamps, or aircraft type hose clamps as they are sometimes called have been allowed as substitutions for original type clamps for some time. Todays replacement radiator hoses are thinner and therefore the older clamps tend not to seal well.

Just goes to show what I know about official judging- absolutely nothing. But I have utmost respect for those inclined to be official judges. It obviously requires a climbing serious learning curve, a willingness to work in the hot sun and then toil over tedious calculations. This, only to be later questioned, ridiculed or blamed when an owner feels his/her vehicle was misjudged. As mentioned, my hat is off to official judges.

My hat is also off to judgees, who are willing to put in many hours and dollars in preparation for being judged. I usually just wash mine off, and hit the windshield again to get the bugs off upon arrival.

I can only judge my own, unofficially of course, but that's good enough for me. Of course my car gets bonus points when it successfully pulls back into the driveway at home. That's what I like best about judging my own, I get to make all the rules :)

clonelark
04-17-2013, 07:16 AM
Don't want to give it 400 points? Show me a better one (Conestoga). This is why we loose a lot of members in the club, judging ticks a lot of people off.

bezhawk
04-17-2013, 09:52 AM
If we loose people because they get ticked off from judging, then they are not in the right mind set. Judging serves to preserve the standard of the marque. If every modification is allowed as "stock" then soon there will be NO stock vehicles left. No history as to what they were like new, except pictures.
If someone modifies their car and tries to pass it off as stock, and then gets pissed off because they got caught, well then do we really want them? Approach the judging process as pointing out what needs improving from a standard. It is not a personal attack on you or your car.....never has been never will be. If you take it as that then it is on you.

Pat Dilling
04-17-2013, 11:05 AM
Judging serves to preserve the standard of the marque. If every modification is allowed as "stock" then soon there will be NO stock vehicles left. No history as to what they were like new, except pictures.


I think that is true if the judging is consistent. Experiences like Frank41 described above is what discourages most people. I also think that if people make modifications for comfort or convenience they should accept appropriate deductions if they chose to have their car judged. Modifications for safety or necessary function, like the hose clamps, should be allowed if the cars are to be driven and not just be display pieces. It all depends on how a person chooses to participate in the hobby.

studegary
04-17-2013, 02:38 PM
Don't want to give it 400 points? Show me a better one (Conestoga). This is why we loose a lot of members in the club, judging ticks a lot of people off.

I do not want to give it 400 points because it does not represent an as built, with factory approved options/accessories, Studebaker.
Whether I can show you a better one or not is not germane to the discussion.
Judging is optional for those that are interested. If judging is not your thing or ticks you off, then do not enter your vehicle for judging.

GTHawk
04-17-2013, 11:26 PM
I have addressed this on another thread but I will go over it all again.

The judging crew for this division was inexperienced and had no veteran judges. This was something that I was not aware of until the judging was done. We would like to have all veteran judges on each crew but must have at least one or two. They did the best the could but had little knowledge of authenticity and were generally pretty lenient.

There were 4 vehicles awarded 400 points in this division. I discovered this when I was picking up forms on the field and asked them to recheck because I just could not believe that 4 vehicles were perfect. They informed me that they had committed another no no which was to inform the exhibitors that they had received perfect scores. So, at this point, since I don't overrule my judges or go around judging cars after they have judged them, we ended up with 4 best of divisions.

The car shown above while extremely nice had some authenticity deductions which should have been taken.

I hate to even bring up the fact that we had some problems with judging in this division because as all of you know we have trouble getting all of the judges that we need. As a result of this, this year I will make sure that we have some veteran judges in each division. We have enough veteran judges to cover all of the divisions if they would volunteer at each meet. At the Springfield meet I encouraged 4 extremely qualified judges whom had dropped out of judging because they got tired of the criticism and they judged again at South Bend and will, hopefully, judge at Colorado Springs.

As some of you may know, the Chief Judge term is 4 years. The Colorado Springs meet will be my 4th meet. Carl Thomason will be looking for a new Chief Judge and if any of you would like to see things changed or want to step up to the plate, give Carl a call. He is also looking for someone to shadow me at the next meet. I was appointed after Linda Sinclair just several months before my first meet. As a result I had no mentor except a great deal of help from Jim Pepper and especially Diane Glew (who was a great help my first year).

So, again, this is a great opportunity for one of you out there to support our club.

Don Berg Chief Judge

PlainBrownR2
04-18-2013, 04:10 AM
While we're on the matter of judging, there was another glaring issue at the South Bend meet last year, and it was in the Avanti division. I really felt bad for the judges and the remaining participants too on this matter.....it was either speed or too small of a group. When we left the fairgrounds, it had to be around 3:30 or 4 pm at the most after making a quick pass through the swap meet area. The reason for this, was the judges had not finished the Avanti's, and about the time they had finished with us, the cars were leaving for the parade. We didn't join the parade, because we don't attend those things, but when they finished with us, they announced over the loudspeaker that the judging was finished and the parade was starting, which resulted in the witted reply "Oh no it's not!" from one of the Avanti judges, as they had a couple rows of Avanti's left to go. That's a big lot at the International, so I'd offer the sage advice, to offer to the other judges, either increase the size of the judging pool for the bigger divisions, or in a big division like ours, don't go picking over each car with a fine toothed comb, because you'll never finish on time. That seemed to have left us with two groups of unhappy people; the judges who had to finish and couldn't leave, and the participants who couldn't leave, or ditched the judging early because they wanted to join the parade.

As an aside, we were quite happy with our 1st place from the meet, never happened before. I was quite happy with our award, even with we eeked by, and I lamented that we shouldn't be concerned about the other points. For me, a life goal was accomplished in this regard, we're pretty easy on this matter. This car was driven to the meet, and to make improvements to get to 400 point status, would be a real mountain climb to the top for the rest of the few points, which could result in turning our enjoyable little family vehicle into something that it was originally not meant to be.

I'm not expressing interest at this time in joining the judging, mostly on health reasons, but I saw something at the last International that at the next International's Judging session, could be added in beforehand, while judging the cars, so everybody comes out on top. :)

studegary
04-18-2013, 01:37 PM
While we're on the matter of judging, there was another glaring issue at the South Bend meet last year, and it was in the Avanti division. I really felt bad for the judges and the remaining participants too on this matter.....it was either speed or too small of a group. When we left the fairgrounds, it had to be around 3:30 or 4 pm at the most after making a quick pass through the swap meet area. The reason for this, was the judges had not finished the Avanti's, and about the time they had finished with us, the cars were leaving for the parade. We didn't join the parade, because we don't attend those things, but when they finished with us, they announced over the loudspeaker that the judging was finished and the parade was starting, which resulted in the witted reply "Oh no it's not!" from one of the Avanti judges, as they had a couple rows of Avanti's left to go. That's a big lot at the International, so I'd offer the sage advice, to offer to the other judges, either increase the size of the judging pool for the bigger divisions, or in a big division like ours, don't go picking over each car with a fine toothed comb, because you'll never finish on time. That seemed to have left us with two groups of unhappy people; the judges who had to finish and couldn't leave, and the participants who couldn't leave, or ditched the judging early because they wanted to join the parade.

:)

This is one of the reasons that I am a big advocate of drive through judging, best at arrival. The judging is then done and the owners and judges can then enjoy the meet.

I am not volunteering to step up in the future because I feel that I have served my time as an SDC judge. I wrote the first "SDC Judging Rules and Regulations", judged authenticity for the C/K Division for MANY years and assisted the Chief Judges in other ways.