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View Full Version : Cool/Heat: 63 /64 GT heater install in a 61 Hawk



3x2stude
03-21-2013, 11:20 PM
My street / strip racer project needs a new firewall. I am running a Stude motor so a stock firewall is appropriate. I would prefer to eliminate the under seat heater as the floor needs major replacement. Here's the quuestion, "will the 63 - 64 GT heater goods clear the 56 - 61 dash?" I realise I have an extra lever to deal with but that's OK as I am planning on a new dash insert laser cut from turned aluminum so I can fudge the extra lever in tastfully. If I need to I can run the 63 - 64 dash but I would like to use the early Hawk.

Second question is regardless of if it fits or not does anyone near me have a good firewall for a 63 - 64 near me? ZIP code 53538.

Jon Kammer

Warren Webb
03-22-2013, 01:47 AM
The dash to the right of the instrument cluster is the same from older Hawks as it is on G.T.'s, so fit isn't an issue. The firewall may not be the only thing to run the later heater. I believe you'll need to change the right front fender inner apron also.

bezhawk
03-22-2013, 11:37 AM
That's correct, the heater core is in the inner fender, the under dash area is just the distribution box and blower motor.

blackhawk
03-22-2013, 05:05 PM
Personally, I think the GT Hawk heater is an improvement over the older design because it allows you to divert more heat to the windshield for defrosting when needed. That said, the heater core for the GT Hawk heater is marginally sufficient, in my opinion. It is the same heater core used in the sedans and Champ pickup. My experience here in Fairbanks, Alaska, has been that this heater core works well for the relatively small cab interior of my '61 Champ pickup, but is too small for the larger interiors of the sedans and Hawk when the outside temperature gets well below zero. It was really woefully inadequate for my '63 Wagonnaire because of the additional open area behind the rear seat. The kids would freeze while sitting in the back. I fixed this by adding two (2) of the accessory underseat heaters, one under the passenger side of the front seat and one under the rear seat. I have one of the accessory heaters under the right front seat of my '64 Cruiser too. I don't use my '63 Hawk much in the winter, so I never added the additional heater, but a friend who bought his '63 GT new here in Fairbanks, had auxiliary heaters under BOTH of the front bucket seats. All this is probably irrelevant since you most likely won't be driving your Hawk much in really cold temperatures in WI because of the salt on the roads during the winter.

3x2stude
03-22-2013, 10:51 PM
Warren,

Good point on the inner fender. There is a GT in a yard 15 miles away. Good excuse to go on a mission tomorrow. :) 5 degrees F tonight though, :(

Blackhawk,

You're right on the lack of heat requirements for me. I am only on the road about 6 months a yaer. I did download the 61, 63 - 64 and auxilliary heaterinfo off the Bob Johnstones site so I at least know what to look for. :)

JK

JK

JoeHall
03-24-2013, 11:22 AM
Personally, I think the GT Hawk heater is an improvement over the older design because it allows you to divert more heat to the windshield for defrosting when needed. That said, the heater core for the GT Hawk heater is marginally sufficient, in my opinion. It is the same heater core used in the sedans and Champ pickup. My experience here in Fairbanks, Alaska, has been that this heater core works well for the relatively small cab interior of my '61 Champ pickup, but is too small for the larger interiors of the sedans and Hawk when the outside temperature gets well below zero. It was really woefully inadequate for my '63 Wagonnaire because of the additional open area behind the rear seat. The kids would freeze while sitting in the back. I fixed this by adding two (2) of the accessory underseat heaters, one under the passenger side of the front seat and one under the rear seat. I have one of the accessory heaters under the right front seat of my '64 Cruiser too. I don't use my '63 Hawk much in the winter, so I never added the additional heater, but a friend who bought his '63 GT new here in Fairbanks, had auxiliary heaters under BOTH of the front bucket seats. All this is probably irrelevant since you most likely won't be driving your Hawk much in really cold temperatures in WI because of the salt on the roads during the winter.

Certainly can't argue about heaters with a guy in Alaska :)

I agree, the OEM heaters are marginal at best, both 62 and earlier, as well as 63 and later, and have installed auxiliary heaters in most driver Studes ever owned, including our three, current Hawks. The 56J has an auxiliary heater under the driver's seat, bought as an NOS kit from Tom K ("the bus guy") many years ago; it still works great. Both GT Hawks (62 & 63) have aftermarket AC evaporators that include heater elements; they work even better than the aux heater in the 56J, since the air flow is direct-able by shifting the louvers in whatever direction one desires.

I also use chalking to seal the rear windows on Hawks. That helps both heater and AC efficiency more than most can imagine. Of course, you'll lose points if ever judged. But I just judge my own cars, have never entered one in other than driver class, and don't intend to start.

blackhawk
03-24-2013, 04:30 PM
Joe, thanks for the comments. It is nice to finally hear from someone who has some experience with the auxiliary heaters! As you no doubt know, they were made by HaDees (spelling?). i used to be able to get them from J. C. Whitney. These looked just like the Studebaker factory installed ones except for the variable switch for the dash.


The 56J has an auxiliary heater under the driver's seat...
How are the water hoses routed to reach the aux heater under the driver's seat? I never looked for this at the time and now cannot figure out how to get water to a heater under the driver's seat in a way that looks decent. The transmission hump in the floor and the transmission and bellhousing are in the way. Do the hoses go across the firewall behind the engine and then down to the underside of the floor under the driver's seat?


I also use chalking to seal the rear windows on Hawks...
Please explain what you mean by "chalking" and which windows? Do you mean the crank down windows on each side of the car beside the rear seat or the rear window directly behind the rear seat?

It seems like it used to be colder here in the past - not that I miss it. Here is a picture taken at our local SDC Chapter (we had one at one time) Christmas party in 1974. It was -50 ℉. That is my '63 Hawk with the old army blanket over the hood.
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa67/DHaggster/Misc%20Studebaker/SDCFarthestNorthChaptermeeting28Dec74-50F.jpg

I also had a '61 Stude station wagon at the time. I experimented with various ways to make it run better in the cold. With the WCFB carb, there was often a hesitation when you depressed the throttle. I assumed this was caused by the cold gas shrinking the leather seal on the accelerator pump. One thing I tried was running hot engine 'coolant' through copper tubing routed around the carb body several times, with fiberglass insulation over the top of it all to hold in the heat. It looked a sight, but it helped. Later, I decided to just live with the hesitation and not try to jump traffic at the intersections when it was that cold. The problem goes away when the weather warms up :)

~ Dale

JoeHall
03-24-2013, 05:22 PM
Hi Dale,
I was talking about the Stude aux heater that was an authorized accessory, and most often installed in colder climates. In 1962 and earlier, it was installed under the driver's seat. In an older Turning Wheels article on 1964 Hawks, I read it was available as an option in those cars, but I am not sure which side of the front seat they put it under. It is a low profile, dual core (front & rear), with a fan in the middle, the sides are shrouded so it blows air out the front & rear.
Installation requires cutting about a 2.5" hole in the floorboard for the fan motor to go through, and a couple of smaller holes for the heater hose outlet/inlet. The hoses run below the car, and a high/low toggle switch in included. The kit I got from Tom K. was complete, and came with factory instructions, special shaped hoses, etc.

For the rear, side windows, I meant to say caulking. I use a caulking gun, and anything black, i.e. silicone. I first insure the rear window are correctly aligned with the door windows, then caulk them in place, inside and outside, all the way around the outer edge of the window frame, including the bottom. It effectively seals up the rear windows, which are one of the biggest problems in the 'K' bodies, especially 1953-58, but also the 62-64.

You operate in temps in Alaska, we folks in the lower 48 cannot even begin to fathom !

blackhawk
03-24-2013, 08:48 PM
Hello Joe,

yes, we are talking about the same heater. I have several of them, most installed in cars. Here is a photo that I took just now of a well-used extra that I dug out of cold storage (literally):
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa67/DHaggster/Misc%20Studebaker/IMG_4983Underseatauxheater.jpg
The only difference I could detect between the original Studebaker accessory and the ones I later purchased from J. C. Whitney and maybe a local parts store (not sure about the later) was the dash mounted switch. The Studebaker accessory had a toggle switch, I believe, like you say, while the ones purchased elsewhere came with a variable resistor switch (illuminated with a bulb inside) that allowed the fan to be operated at any speed between "off" and its maximum. They are very effective. They produce a lot of additional heat in the car.

I was really hoping that you could describe the routing of the water hoses to the unit mounted under the drivers seat, since you have one mounted that way in your '56J. I have seen original, factory (or dealer) installed aux heaters in Studebakers, but never the instructions for installing them in Studebakers. The aftermarket ones, manufactured by HaDees, came with instructions and a floor template for cut-out locations, but were a universal kit for any car make. The instructions said nothing about how to route the hoses for a driver's side installation.

The one I mounted under the rear seat of the '63 station wagon required a LONG run of heater hose along the frame rail on the right side and a cut-out in the lower seat support for hot air to get out to the foot area in front of the seat. It put out a lot of heat despite the obvious heat lose from the long run of exposed heater hoses. Of course at temperatures below -40, you had to block most of the radiator air flow with cardboard to keep engine and heater temperatures at the desired level. One testimony to the effectiveness of the installation was that the 3 kids continually fought over who got to sit over the rear heater!

My cars all have low-temperature transmission and differential fluids, and I use low-temperature chassis lub and wheel bearing grease. So, they handle the cold okay. The coldest temperature that I have driven in was -77 ℉. My '64 Cruiser complained a little that day :)

Thanks for explaining the caulking. i suspected that you meant the rear SIDE windows. I am afraid that I like the hardtop experience of driving with all the windows down (summer of course) so much that I won't be sealing mine shut as you suggest.

~ Dale

JoeHall
03-24-2013, 08:57 PM
Dale,

Yes, that's exactly the heater I have, and with toggle switch you describe. The heater hoses hug the floorboard and are held in place by clamps. They hug the inside of the hump, up and over the tranny/driveshaft. Next time I am under the car, will try to remember to take a few pix.

The good thing about caulking the rear windows, it is not a permanent mod, since a person could dig the stuff out anytime, but it may take a while.

blackhawk
03-25-2013, 03:46 AM
Joe,

Thanks! I figured that the hoses might have gone under the hump, as unlikely as it seems. I look forward to some pictures showing how they are positioned.

~ Dale

BShaw
03-25-2013, 08:36 AM
There is a template available for the AC-3468 accessory heater for Hawks in the SDC Template Collection if that is the one you are discussing.
http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/Studebakertemplates.htm

blackhawk
03-25-2013, 12:59 PM
Thanks Bob. I am aware that there is a template collection but had never seen the list. Unfortunately, it is just a list with no way to see what the template includes without spending money to order the template. I suspect it is a template for cutting the holes in the floor for the motor and two water tubes. I already have that and, actually, one can easily wing it if he doesn't have the template. What I am interested in finding out is how Studebaker routed the heater hoses from the right side of the engine, under the transmission hump, to the floor under the driver's seat. Joe has a Hawk with the factory installation of the auxiliary heater under the driver's seat and said he would take some photos of the hose layout next time he has the car up in the air. ~ Dale

JoeHall
03-25-2013, 05:56 PM
Thanks Bob. I am aware that there is a template collection but had never seen the list. Unfortunately, it is just a list with no way to see what the template includes without spending money to order the template. I suspect it is a template for cutting the holes in the floor for the motor and two water tubes. I already have that and, actually, one can easily wing it if he doesn't have the template. What I am interested in finding out is how Studebaker routed the heater hoses from the right side of the engine, under the transmission hump, to the floor under the driver's seat. Joe has a Hawk with the factory installation of the auxiliary heater under the driver's seat and said he would take some photos of the hose layout next time he has the car up in the air. ~ Dale

Dale,
I'd like to clarify: Joe has a Hawk (56J) with an aux heater, which he (Joe) installed as best he could, per the instructions that came with the kit.

IIRC the kit & instructions were specifically for Studebaker. It would almost be worth $2 to me to see the instructions again, but the lister's ordering process is archaic and a bit of a PITA, but at least it is available :)

blackhawk
03-26-2013, 04:12 AM
Okay. If you think what they are calling a template actually includes instructions for routing the hoses to the driver's side, I will order it and see what I get. It is a PITA though, as you say. I wonder why they feel they have to spend time mailing them and charging a fee for the time and postage when they could just post them online and be done with it?

studebakerkid
03-26-2013, 08:54 AM
The under seat heater can be made to work well. My 54 uses two motors to push the air. I use the stock fender well motor and a muffin fan installed right in front of the heater core inside the duct.

blackhawk
03-26-2013, 04:35 PM
The under seat heater can be made to work well. My 54 uses two motors to push the air. I use the stock fender well motor and a muffin fan installed right in front of the heater core inside the duct.

Great idea for the Hawks made before 1963. It has been a while since I owned or drove a Studebaker with the factory heater under the passenger seat, but IIRC the heater core for those heaters was big enough to put out a lot of heat. The long duct from the fan motor to the heater core probably does restrict air flow somewhat. This is analogous to having a clothes dryer exhaust duct that is too long or small in diameter. An extra fan to push more air would likely help. In my case, I am dealing with the later design (1963-64) with the heater core located in the right front fender with hot air being delivered to the floor and windshield from under the dash, as in the Larks. The heater core is smaller and not capable of putting out as much heat, and the hot air outlets under the dash are further away from the passengers, especially those in the rear seat. So, Studebaker provided accessory (auxiliary) heaters that could be mounted under the front seats, either on the passenger side, driver side or both. The routing of hot water hoses to an auxiliary heater under the front passenger seat is straight forward. Getting hot water to and from a similar heater under the driver's seat is not. The transmission hump is in the way. Joe has said that the factory instructions were to clamp the two water hoses for the driver's side auxiliary heater to the underside of the transmission hump. I have never seen how this was done. So I am looking for photos or instructions that show how it was done. I know of one '63 Hawk here in Fairbanks that came with auxiliary heaters installed under both bucket seats. I think what I need to do is call the owner and arrange a time to go look at and photograph that installation. That will provide the info that I need and I can pass it on to others on this forum. The quicker alternative, which is probably the way I will end up doing it now that I know the hoses were fastened to the underside of the transmission hump, is to just eyeball it for the best looking place to route the hoses and do it.