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studebaker-R2-4-me
03-18-2013, 09:20 PM
I have spent hours searching the forum for answers regarding my braking issues that I have encountered changing the master cylinder in my Lark. I am installing a Turner Disc Brake system in the fronts as well as a power brake booster that I had rebuilt a couple of years ago and have yet to install. My problem is that I thought I had purchased an old Studebaker power brake booster but it turns out that it is not. Looking over all the parts that I acquired for this build I had purchased a two bolt flange type booster, Jim Turner told me that all Studebaker boosters are 4 bolt. Here's the problem, Jim recommends using a 1 1/16" or 1 1/8". After searching and reading as many threads available, I would like to find as close of a master cylinder to stock. An old post that Matthew Burnett commented on suggested that he used an AMC/Jeep Master Cylinder as a good replacement for the 1963 Master with brake switch port coming off the bottom. What I found was a Wagner MC56193 or alternate F56193 with a bolt on lid or a Cardone Master 10-36365 is also a good match with the bolt on lid. Both used in 1974 Jeep CJ5 and CJ6's. I'm not too worried about changing fittings on the brake lines if I have to, since I am changing all these old brake lines anyway.

The stated bore is 1" on the MC56193. I am questioning the importance of using a the 1 1/16" or 1 1/8" bore with the Turner Disc Brake system vs. using this Master noted above? Does anybody have any experience using this MC?

Here's a pic borrowed from Amazon's site of the Wagner MC.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31vJl0NJuvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
Thanks in advance for any information,

Allen

stude1964
03-18-2013, 09:43 PM
I would again question Jim Turner as to the 1 1/8 or other bore MC. The AMC MC's that I have used are from the late '60's-early '70's. The difference has been the top uses a baling wire in lieu of the bolt. There is also a difference between a power MC vs. non-power MC. I don't know the difference but the parts books show different numbers. Some of the AMC boosters are the same as Stude from the 60's. I'm in the process now of adding PB to my '64 wagon. I had Booster Dewey rebuild the booster. I located an NOS MC for PB on epay. Rob in PA.

WCP
03-18-2013, 09:55 PM
If I understand correctly, you wish to convert to a power disk system on your '63 Lark. To be technically correct, you need to mirror the setup used in an Avanti, with the exception of the link from the booster mount lever to the brake pedal. The Lark link is different in length. However, it doesn't make sense to use a single M/C. Select a dual unit (for safety) and forget the hydraulic brake switch in favour of a mechanical one. The setup won't look like a stock '63 PDB, but neither would the unit pictured in your post.
If you need a booster mount, lever and link, check with Jon Myer for the parts.

studebaker-R2-4-me
03-18-2013, 09:55 PM
I would again question Jim Turner as to the 1 1/8 or other bore MC. The AMC MC's that I have used are from the late '60's-early '70's. The difference has been the top uses a baling wire in lieu of the bolt. There is also a difference between a power MC vs. non-power MC. I don't know the difference but the parts books show different numbers. Some of the AMC boosters are the same as Stude from the 60's. I'm in the process now of adding PB to my '64 wagon. I had Booster Dewey rebuild the booster. I located an NOS MC for PB on epay. Rob in PA.

It is my understanding drum brake MC have residual valves in them to slow the release of the pad from the drum whereas in my front Disc brake application may have to have the residual valve removed from the front circuit to release the Disc pads.

I was wondering if this was the MC cylinder that you purchased on Ebay for your car?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brake-Master-Cylinder-65-66-Studebaker-Commander-Challenger-/140936239047?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20d07457c7&vxp=mtr

I was looking at this one but there is no mention of the bore size on this MC and I pass on it. I even tried to google the part number with no luck to get some information about it.

Allen

studebaker-R2-4-me
03-18-2013, 10:11 PM
If I understand correctly, you wish to convert to a power disk system on your '63 Lark. To be technically correct, you need to mirror the setup used in an Avanti, with the exception of the link from the booster mount lever to the brake pedal. The Lark link is different in length. However, it doesn't make sense to use a single M/C. Select a dual unit (for safety) and forget the hydraulic brake switch in favour of a mechanical one. The setup won't look like a stock '63 PDB, but neither would the unit pictured in your post.
If you need a booster mount, lever and link, check with Jon Myer for the parts.

I have the booster mount brackets and a rebuilt booster, albeit it is not a four hole mount like a Studebaker one, which is my dilemma to find a MC that will look period correct (not Studebaker correct) for power disc brakes and drum rears. At this point I am not considering a mechanical switch and favour the existing pressure switch for ease of installation. I really just want this car to stop and be safe for my girl.

Allen

Gunslinger
03-18-2013, 10:34 PM
Do you know what car the booster is for? Avantis began using a two bolt master cylinder pattern about 1971. So if your booster is for that '71 and later Avanti II, then the master cylinder for them is what you probably need.

brian6373
03-18-2013, 11:24 PM
In '63 Larks, the power front disc brakes used a single chamber MC. The four drum brakes had the "split" MC. I've read that some people have used a dual MC from late sixties mustangs that had front disc brakes. I've seen a MC on ebay for the past few years that looks just like the dual MC on my '63 Lark, listed for '65 &'66 Studebaker. I don't know if this would work on your application though.

candbstudebakers
03-19-2013, 01:46 AM
Allen, the e-bay ad states this MC is for power drum brakes. the 63 duel MC is very costly about $325.00 where the 64-66 is about $90.00 and this one on e-bay is what $55.00? SI has both of these.

studebaker-R2-4-me
03-19-2013, 05:33 PM
It is my understanding from talking to a mechanic today at the school I am working at, is that the 1" bore may not be large enough to power the new disc brake circuit. Does anyone know of a 2 hole flange MC with a 1 1/8" bore with a "sort of stock" looking MC ie. Bolt on cover and Switch mount MC?

Allen

Gunslinger
03-19-2013, 07:01 PM
While this doesn't exactly look like stock, here's what I did with my car...http://www.studebaker-info.org/tech/bblum/bblum210911.html.

JoeHall
03-19-2013, 08:37 PM
Comparing 1" bore versus 1 1/16", the 1" provides more line pressure at a given foot pressure on the pedal. The downside is, the 1" pumps less volume, so you may run out of pedal travel before the brakes are fully applied. Looks like Gunslinger got it all figured out, and all you need do is replicate. However, if you are trying to salvage the booster you already have, you may have to go back to the drawing board.

The AMC style, dual MC (same as 64-66 Stude) is 1" bore, and works well with the DB setup I use on two different Hawks, which have HUGE calipers & rotors, but no power assist (not needed). On the third Hawk (63GT), OEM master cylinder & power assist work great with the Turner DB kit the PO installed, replacing the OEM disc setup.

In sum, a 1" will probably also work for you, but I bow down to Jim T's wisdom, and would not argue with him about it.

StudeRich
03-19-2013, 11:18 PM
Allen, the M/C in your original post looks like it is for Drum/Drum, and has the equal size reservoirs does it not?

Disc/Drum always have a large Rear Chamber for the Front Brakes, and a small Front chamber for the Rears.

Disc. Master Cylinders also have Residual Valves in the Rear Brake (Front) Port.

studebakerkid
03-26-2013, 10:23 AM
If it was me I would use a master from a disk brake Mustang with the larger bore as Jim suggests and u could prob use the Mustangs Vaccume assist also.

studebaker-R2-4-me
03-26-2013, 10:53 PM
Rich, Yes I have decided that the 64-66 Studebaker master cylinder is not the way I am going to go, plain and simple the bore is not big enough for me to take a chance on having my pedal go to the floor before the front disc engage. I have not yet found a master cylinder that I want to use yet. I am kind of stuck between using a flip top clip on the master to a bolt down style similar to the stock drum version. I am considering a Mustang master but having a hard time finding one with the ports pointing in toward the engine and finding the right combination of Disc/Drum with 1 1/8" bore. I am hoping someone has had done something similar to me. I really don't know where my booster came from, it may well have been an Avanti II setup. It does have the proper brackets although, I am missing a key component to making the setup work, I am missing the brake pedal to booster bracket linkage!

If anyone one has one for sale I could use it. I am still looking for ideas on a master cylinder as well: one with a two hole flange, 1 1/8" bore, front circuit for disc and drum rear, outlet ports to the inside, and a bolt on top. Life would be good if I could get a part number on one of them

Allen

Captain Billy
03-27-2013, 08:24 PM
Allen....don't know if this will work but Speedway has a bunch of M/C's that may.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Power-Manual-Master-Cylinder-1-1-8-Inch-Bore,36760.html
Good luck

WCP
03-28-2013, 11:21 AM
Allen, the linkage from pedal to booster is part of the bracket assembly and separate from the booster. If the booster that you have has the brackets permanently attached, then you have a problem. The bracket & linkage parts are available but you will need the correct booster.

studebaker-R2-4-me
03-28-2013, 11:56 AM
Allen, the linkage from pedal to booster is part of the bracket assembly and separate from the booster. If the booster that you have has the brackets permanently attached, then you have a problem. The bracket & linkage parts are available but you will need the correct booster.

The booster that I have bolts to the bracket. I think it best if I post pictures of the booster that I have later tonight. I do need the linkage from the pedal to the bracket.

Allen

studebaker-R2-4-me
04-02-2013, 10:24 PM
I finally remembered to take some pictures while out in the shop. Here is what I have for a booster. As you can see I need the linkage from the brake pedal to the connection at the booster bracket. The existing linkage is for the master cylinder and not the booster.

22720 22721 22719

Allen

JoeHall
04-02-2013, 10:44 PM
Why don't you just fabricate the linkage?

WCP
04-03-2013, 01:55 PM
As I indicated in post #5, the link from the bracket lever to brake pedal is similar to that used on the Avanti, but a different length. Jon Myer will probably have the correct link for the Lark. You could probably fabricate and weld an end on the link passing thru your firewall to attach to the clevis pin, but you have to get the length right - simpler to get the right one from Jon.

StudeRich
04-03-2013, 03:45 PM
Allen, that booster looks to me like the same or similar to many Drum Brake boosters probably NOT enough POWER for Discs anyway. Notice that it is only 1/3 the depth of an Avanti Unit. Just sell it.

No offense but IMO you are obsessing over this 1 1/16 or 1 1/8 in. M/C thing.
Remember that there are actually Hundreds of '63-'66 Larks, Lark Types and Avantis out there with Turner Discs. and the Factory 1 inch Single Master Cyl. Like my '64 Daytona that stop so quickly you get Nine cents change from your Dime! :ohmy:

And then there are all those of the same Models with Turner Brakes and the Conversion DUAL Master, all also with 1 Inch M/C's. :)

I know how most of you feel about SINGLE M/C's, but I have proven that with a Heavy Car like my former '63 Daytona 289 Overdrive, Manual Drum Brake, Wagonaire that it takes MUCH more leg to apply a Dual M/C than a Single. So I used a '62 and '63 Stude. Standard, Single M/C.

Sure I COULD have added a very similar Drum Booster to Allen's, but I chose to take the cheaper, simpler road.

That could be the reason Jim prefers a larger bore M/C, because you all want DUAL!

WCP
04-04-2013, 10:35 AM
I couldn't identify the booster and bracket in your picture, but StudeRich has. I did see that the spacing of the pivot points on the lever are not the same as those of the correct Stude setup. This changes the mechanical advantage of the lever. I agree with StudeRich that you should sell it and acquire the correct booster and bracket assembly with lever to pedal link. Whether you go with a single master or dual is your choice. I prefer the dual on my Daytona, but you do have to relocate or remove the washer bottle.The attached photo is of the correct booster bracket and lever. The link to the pedal is an Avanti one. As stated before, the Lark link has a slightly different length, but that difference wouldn't show in the photo.

22750

studebaker-R2-4-me
04-06-2013, 12:12 AM
I couldn't identify the booster and bracket in your picture, but StudeRich has. I did see that the spacing of the pivot points on the lever are not the same as those of the correct Stude setup. This changes the mechanical advantage of the lever. I agree with StudeRich that you should sell it and acquire the correct booster and bracket assembly with lever to pedal link. Whether you go with a single master or dual is your choice. I prefer the dual on my Daytona, but you do have to relocate or remove the washer bottle.The attached photo is of the correct booster bracket and lever. The link to the pedal is an Avanti one. As stated before, the Lark link has a slightly different length, but that difference wouldn't show in the photo.

22750

Well I am bummed out over this one. I was looking through my old records and can not find where I bought this "so called" correct booster (Caveat emptor). I am even more bummed to have had this thing rebuilt for my Lark. This is a game changer for me and will just go with the '73 four bolt flange Chrysler Newport Master skip the booster and call it a day.

Thanks for the info.

Allen

Captain Billy
04-06-2013, 07:37 AM
Hey Allen, I have the proper booster to firewall bracket you need for the Lark application, all parts attached,

I believe Jim Turner now has 'new' boosters.


Bill

studebaker-R2-4-me
04-06-2013, 11:46 AM
Hey Allen, I have the proper booster to firewall bracket you need for the Lark application, all parts attached,

I believe Jim Turner now has 'new' boosters. Bill

Bill, I will send you a private message regarding the firewall bracket.

Codys1stcar
04-26-2013, 12:21 AM
I have spent hours searching the forum for answers regarding my braking issues that I have encountered changing the master cylinder in my Lark. I am installing a Turner Disc Brake system in the fronts as well as a power brake booster that I had rebuilt a couple of years ago and have yet to install. My problem is that I thought I had purchased an old Studebaker power brake booster but it turns out that it is not. Looking over all the parts that I acquired for this build I had purchased a two bolt flange type booster, Jim Turner told me that all Studebaker boosters are 4 bolt. Here's the problem, Jim recommends using a 1 1/16" or 1 1/8". After searching and reading as many threads available, I would like to find as close of a master cylinder to stock. An old post that Matthew Burnett commented on suggested that he used an AMC/Jeep Master Cylinder as a good replacement for the 1963 Master with brake switch port coming off the bottom. What I found was a Wagner MC56193 or alternate F56193 with a bolt on lid or a Cardone Master 10-36365 (tel:10-36365) is also a good match with the bolt on lid. Both used in 1974 Jeep CJ5 and CJ6's. I'm not too worried about changing fittings on the brake lines if I have to, since I am changing all these old brake lines anyway.

The stated bore is 1" on the MC56193. I am questioning the importance of using a the 1 1/16" or 1 1/8" bore with the Turner Disc Brake system vs. using this Master noted above? Does anybody have any experience using this MC?

Here's a pic borrowed from Amazon's site of the Wagner MC.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31vJl0NJuvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
Thanks in advance for any information,

Allen

Would that MC work for my 62 lark sedan, converting to dual, keeping drums?

studebaker-R2-4-me
04-27-2013, 10:13 AM
Update on my Power booster bracket and booster. I do have a Studebaker booster and bracket and was not sold a bill of goods as previously thought, my picture is simply cleaned up, media blasted and painted. The bracket and booster are for a drum car and is exactly the same as shown in the parts book blowup. At this point I have found all the parts I need from Myers Studebaker and will be picking them up in South Bend next weekend. Master cylinder, bigger booster,and rod.

See ya all in South Bend!

Allen

s2d63lark
04-27-2013, 10:31 AM
Allen, since you are in Oakville I assume you are familiar with Special Interest Cars on Woody. If not, check them out. They have a guy who used to work for Lockheed/Wagner in on Saturdays who is EXTREMELY knowledgeable. He helped me out with the entire brake system for my E-40. Even though they are "Ford Specialists", they also have a full line of antique "jobber" parts.

Doug

studebaker-R2-4-me
04-27-2013, 06:32 PM
Allen, since you are in Oakville I assume you are familiar with Special Interest Cars on Woody. If not, check them out. They have a guy who used to work for Lockheed/Wagner in on Saturdays who is EXTREMELY knowledgeable. He helped me out with the entire brake system for my E-40. Even though they are "Ford Specialists", they also have a full line of antique "jobber" parts.

Doug

Yes I have been there several times, actually the last time I was there, they were not. They have moved from their location to where I can't remember. Keep it mind if you are going back there for something else, they are no longer at that location on Woody Rd.

Allen.