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Dylan
03-10-2013, 05:09 PM
I'm going to be reinstalling the fuel tank in my president today after I had it boiled. Do I run a bottle of lead substitute in the fuel tank? Since today's fuels don't have lead in them. I want to make sure everything I'm doing is correct. Thanks!

Another note, can I run a thing of sea foam in the fuel tank to clean the carb jets? Seems like everything is running right, but their could be a plugged up jet or something in the carb.










Dylan

PackardV8
03-10-2013, 05:33 PM
You are going to get a wide divergence of opinions about lead substitutes, Sea Foam and other magic in a bottle.

JMHO, but I wouldn't use any of them if they were free.

I've spoken with a couple of petroleum engineers. One, a good friend of mine has been an engineer with Chevron for forty years. He says, "If any of those aftermarket chemicals were beneficial, we'd manufacture them by the millions of gallons, put them in our oils or fuels and be bragging about it on television and charging more. They're all just marketing hype and wishful thinking."

Your opinions and results may vary.

jack vines

63 R2 Hawk
03-10-2013, 06:03 PM
Lead "substitute" is usually nothing more than a light top oil. Lead has nothing to do with the tank or fuel system, it used to be added to gasoline to help prevent fuel knock. It won't hurt anything to run a little 100LL avgas (100 octane low lead) from time to time but not absolutely necessary. The long term affects of today's ethanol contaminated fuel, however, is another long and heated discussion. I would make sure you have a good filter in the fuel system and change it in the first couple hundred miles.

Dylan
03-10-2013, 08:05 PM
I just wanted an honest opinion about this subject. My uncle runs the Gunk Lead Substitute in the 63' Blackhawk, and he told me about using it in mine. But then again I was telling him about the zinc additive that I'm running to protect the flat tapped pistons, he had no clue what that was. I just wanted to clarify with the Studebaker forum.

If choose to run it, I'm in no way hurting the engine? Thanks!




Dylan

DEEPNHOCK
03-10-2013, 08:14 PM
Best thing you can do is run the snot out of it.
Keep the gas in your tank rotating.
If you drive ten gallons a week....Put ten gallons a week in it.
Keeping your 18 gallon tank full, and then driving a hundred miles in six months is asking for trouble.
Today's gas evaporates the 'good stuff' within a few weeks, and the rest of it (the bad stuff) absorbs water and leaves a boatload of crud in your carb.
Active Stude drivers don't usually have fuel problems.
Casual drivers, and intermittent drivers usually have issues.
HTIH
Jeffhttp://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/images/icons/icon6.png

cutitup
03-10-2013, 09:57 PM
i think theres some truth in some of the products seafoam does work for seperating water from the gas because of the ethnal alot of people use it in boats ive used marvel mystery oil for years in older cars that arent set up for unleaded gas seems to work

Swifster
03-10-2013, 11:19 PM
The only thing I run is a bottle of Techron every oil change.

RadioRoy
03-11-2013, 03:11 PM
If everything is running right, then leave it alone.

The urge to tinker can be very strong, but tinkerers aften make more work for themselves than if they had just been content to leave it the H--- alone.

FlatheadGeo
03-13-2013, 04:20 PM
If everything is running right, then leave it alone.

The urge to tinker can be very strong, but tinkerers aften make more work for themselves than if they had just been content to leave it the H--- alone.

My father, an aircraft mechanic, always said: "If everything is running fine, DO NOT open the hood!" This has become a standing phrase in my small circle of friends.

Hawklover
03-14-2013, 06:05 PM
Go to a marine supply house and purchase a bottle of Starbright..........prevents phase seperation.
Best thing you can do is run the snot out of it.
Keep the gas in your tank rotating.
If you drive ten gallons a week....Put ten gallons a week in it.
Keeping your 18 gallon tank full, and then driving a hundred miles in six months is asking for trouble.
Today's gas evaporates the 'good stuff' within a few weeks, and the rest of it (the bad stuff) absorbs water and leaves a boatload of crud in your carb.
Active Stude drivers don't usually have fuel problems.
Casual drivers, and intermittent drivers usually have issues.
HTIH
Jeffhttp://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/images/icons/icon6.png

jnormanh
03-14-2013, 07:03 PM
If everything is running right, then leave it alone.

The urge to tinker can be very strong, but tinkerers aften make more work for themselves than if they had just been content to leave it the H--- alone.

It's past time, waaay past time that folks stopped fantasizing about the elimination of lead from gasoline.

Remember leaded gasoline? Spark plugs lasted 10K miles, mufflers and exhaust pipes rusted out in a year or two., valves burnt at 50K miles. Engines rarely lasted 100K miles. Those things do not happen now because gasoline is now lead free.

Not to mention all the children in high traffic areas who were poisoned and suffered brain damage from lead.

Forget it. You don't need lead or anything else. Fantasize about something else. Modern gasoline is the best it 's ever been.

JoeHall
03-14-2013, 08:42 PM
I just wanted an honest opinion about this subject. My uncle runs the Gunk Lead Substitute in the 63' Blackhawk, and he told me about using it in mine. But then again I was telling him about the zinc additive that I'm running to protect the flat tapped pistons, he had no clue what that was. I just wanted to clarify with the Studebaker forum.

If choose to run it, I'm in no way hurting the engine? Thanks!

Dylan

Lead substitute and zinc additive (DZZP) are both cut from the same cloth. Nothing supports either are needed, yet many folks use them for, "cheap insurance" or, "peace of mind" against horror stories about valve recession and cam & lifter failure. The horror stories are simply hype, designed to scare folks into buying the stuff.

Fortunately, it appears nothing is damaged if a person decides to use those products. Only side effect is a slightly lighter wallet.

oldsalt
03-14-2013, 10:25 PM
It's past time, waaay past time that folks stopped fantasizing about the elimination of lead from gasoline.

Remember leaded gasoline? Spark plugs lasted 10K miles, mufflers and exhaust pipes rusted out in a year or two., valves burnt at 50K miles. Engines rarely lasted 100K miles. Those things do not happen now because gasoline is now lead free.

Not to mention all the children in high traffic areas who were poisoned and suffered brain damage from lead.

Forget it. You don't need lead or anything else. Fantasize about something else. Modern gasoline is the best it 's ever been.

Perhaps, just perhaps, gas has never been better and to believe, in even slight measure, that it is worse is, in fact, fantasizing. Perhaps.

Alternately; believing modern gas is the best thing since sliced bread might be due, possibly, to brain damage received at an early age. Possibly.

sweetolbob
03-14-2013, 11:12 PM
Perhaps, just perhaps, gas has never been better and to believe, in even slight measure, that it is worse is, in fact, fantasizing. Perhaps.

Alternately; believing modern gas is the best thing since sliced bread might be due, possibly, to brain damage received at an early age. Possibly.

Realistically today's gas is the best for the purpose it serves, High pressure fuel injected engines controlled by state of the art ECM's. It is far from the best for engines designed to perform on the fuels in existence 60 or so years ago. So for the majority of it's usage it's fine. For the minority, Not so much!!


Bob

StudeRich
03-15-2013, 12:30 AM
/Cut/I was telling him about the zinc additive that I'm running to protect the flat tapped (TOPPED) pistons, he had no clue what that was. I just wanted to clarify with the Studebaker forum./Cut/Dylan

Ops, careful Dylan; don't be telling the wrong story here.

The lower level of ZDDP, Catalytic Converter Safe 2008 and on Oil is supposed to damage the Valve LIFTERS and the CAMSHAFT Lobes they run on, which Flat Tappet Engines have.

This is never a problem on the Newer Overhead Cam and Roller Lifter Engines.

It has nothing to do with Flat, Dished or Domed (Popup) Piston style! :)

JoeHall
03-15-2013, 07:49 AM
Ops, careful Dylan; don't be telling the wrong story here.

The lower level of ZDDP, Catalytic Converter Safe 2008 and on Oil is supposed to damage the Valve LIFTERS and the CAMSHAFT Lobes they run on, which Flat Tappet Engines have.

This is never a problem on the Newer Overhead Cam and Roller Lifter Engines.

It has nothing to do with Flat, Dished or Domed (Popup) Piston style! :)


Yes Rich, it supposedly damages lifters and cams, but has ANYONE in Studedom, running an OEM Stude motor, ever experienced said problems?

JimC
03-15-2013, 09:35 AM
This is almost a religious debate for some folks. And since the forum policies frown upon over-the-top religious debate here, I'll try to keep my views light.

Can you use all of these additives? Sure! Back when I was 16 and driving a Plymouth that was only a couple years younger than I was, I think my gas tank was about 55% Fuel and 45% additives. My oil was probably about the same. Aside from vapor locking every time the temp was above comfortable (hey, one of those additives was supposed to stop that from happening!!) it ran fine.

Looking at the research of people with the ability to look into such things, it seems that all fuel or oil additives are almost entirely composed of petroleum products, or in other words fuel or oil, and a very small part is actually the "good stuff" so to speak. That begs the question, why wouldn't they just give you a bottle of the good stuff, and save themselves the trouble of buying fuel and oil in bulk? The answer is probably a combination of the facts that a bigger bottle looks better on the shelf, and the bottle size for a safe dose without the base petroleum would likely be so small that they couldn't justify charging $4-12 for the bottle.

In the last 11 months, I've put thousands of miles on my Lark. I only added any sort of fuel additive once, and that was because the car came with a bottle of it in the trunk. I have noticed no difference in performance.

Having said all of that, there are two things I still believe in: ethanol kills, and zddp is worth a shot. A Google search will lead you to scads of horror stories about people running ethanol blends in older cars and having all the rubber dissolve. Not pretty stuff, for sure! Ethanol acts as a solvent that eats away at most rubbers, so given enough of it in your fuel system, and your rubber hoses and gaskets and other things will turn to mush. Zddp is a little more debatable, but the way I look at it is like this: The majority of racing teams swear by the stuff, and pay good money for racing oil with high zddp content. I would argue that very few people do as many tear-downs on engines as racing teams do, and they seem to think there's something to it. Now, maybe the difference with or without enough of it is so subtle that your average driver would never notice, and the benefits only really kick in if you're flying around a track or down a strip and putting piles of wear on your engine in a short period of time. All the same, the pros seem to think there is some benefit, so why not?

At the end of the day, approach all this stuff with some healthy skepticism. Like Jack said, if there was any sort of benefit to this stuff, the petroleum companies would be using it, making a killing off it. That in itself speaks volumes.

jnormanh
03-15-2013, 09:57 AM
Ops, careful Dylan; don't be telling the wrong story here.

The lower level of ZDDP, Catalytic Converter Safe 2008 and on Oil is supposed to damage the Valve LIFTERS and the CAMSHAFT Lobes they run on, which Flat Tappet Engines have.

This is never a problem on the Newer Overhead Cam and Roller Lifter Engines.

It has nothing to do with Flat, Dished or Domed (Popup) Piston style! :)



You are aware that all modern Volvo, Mercedes and BMW engines have sliding cam followers, no rollers and they'll run 200K+?

jnormanh
03-15-2013, 10:02 AM
I belong to a British car club. The newest car of the 140 or so there was built in 1979, most of them between 1950 and 1970. All have flat tappets. All run unleaded/ethanol. Virtually all run modern motor oil. Some of these cars a driven regularly, and some are driven hard. One of them, an MGB, has done 400K miles with one engine rebuild at 250k. No ruined cam, no burnt valves, no dissolved rubber parts.

bezhawk
03-15-2013, 10:25 AM
Zddp is ok to use for breaking in a new cam and lifters upon first time start up. Unless you are using super high pressure 200#+ seated spring pressures, it does nothing after the lifters and cam are seated. Race car builders use it because they are running parts that need it. Average Studebakers do not. The only additive needed in alot of seldom used vehicles is a fuel stabilization product. Old gas can cause many difficulties.

JoeHall
03-15-2013, 10:58 AM
Zddp is ok to use for breaking in a new cam and lifters upon first time start up. Unless you are using super high pressure 200#+ seated spring pressures, it does nothing after the lifters and cam are seated. Race car builders use it because they are running parts that need it. Average Studebakers do not. The only additive needed in alot of seldom used vehicles is a fuel stabilization product. Old gas can cause many difficulties.

Important to differentiate between "OK" and "needed". Its probably OK to add 16 ounces of Gatoraid to a motor for break in of new cam and lifters, but is it NEEDED?

sweetolbob
03-15-2013, 11:19 AM
I suspect that in most cases flat tappet camshafts and lifter will survive with the newer oils when driven in a sensible manner. However, I tend to drive like I stole the car and my foot is not light. I don't build my engines to get groceries nor sit and make noise at shows. I build them to run the snot out of.

So if anybody thinks that I would ever consider saving a couple of bucks a quart on oil and not use the higher level of ZDDP, they are peeing into the wind.

I can quote the arguments in either case but I also carry $3MM in insurance on my vehicles ($1MM base, $2MM umbrella). Why, because the odds say I'm not going to need it but if I do, Some insurance company is going to send there best lawyers to help me. I feel the same way about ZDDP. I probably don't need it but why find out I did when I am rebuilding my engine at 1000X the cost of the additive.

JMHO, Bob

63 R2 Hawk
03-15-2013, 11:32 AM
Uh-oh... I think I feel another ZDDP frasculation coming.....

JimC
03-15-2013, 01:01 PM
One thing to keep in mind with all of these additives is that unlike a bottle of oil, which has a big federally-mandated label describing what's in there, additives don't have to do this. There's nothing stopping them from buying bulk quantities of sub-par oil and gas as the diluting agent for their formulations. Thinking about that, is it worth replacing a known good product with an unknown? Especially with oil additives. When you're swapping 1/5 of your engine's fluids with this unknown product, what does that do to performance?

StudeRich
03-15-2013, 02:26 PM
All of you that are asking for "Current" results and wondering why there are no problems, also stating Years and decades of running Brand XXXXX Oil with no problems, need to remember that this is a very, minor amount of damage we are talking about and as been said, the worst is on break-in and hard hauling or Racing use.

Our Studebaker Engines may never be used in that manner, or at least ENOUGH to flatten the cam until after many of us are gone, but I don't like promoting excessive wear if I can avoid it.
No argument here, I can see everyone has different opinions on this and they are entitled to them.

The other issue is we have only had the "Modern Car Oil" since Nov. 2007, and even more recently for the Shell Rotella "T" and Chevron Delo Diesel Oils. So not many have driven a huge amount of miles since.

Kurt
03-15-2013, 04:53 PM
You are going to get a wide divergence of opinions about lead substitutes, Sea Foam and other magic in a bottle.

JMHO, but I wouldn't use any of them if they were free.

I've spoken with a couple of petroleum engineers. One, a good friend of mine has been an engineer with Chevron for forty years. He says, "If any of those aftermarket chemicals were beneficial, we'd manufacture them by the millions of gallons, put them in our oils or fuels and be bragging about it on television and charging more. They're all just marketing hype and wishful thinking."

Your opinions and results may vary.

jack vines

While I do agree with what Jack says for the most part, I think that there is one thing that bears mentioning. The producers of gasoline expect that once you put the fuel in the tank, it will be somewhat quickly used up. Most times in collector cars, we see periods of long term dormancy. Addatives like stabil, seafoam, and others seem to help with fuel related issues from dormancy. I know from personal experience that these products have been very helpful in stopping fuel related issues in my lawnmower, chainsaw, collector tractor, and Studebakers. As Jack would say Your results may vary.

studebakerkid
03-26-2013, 11:01 AM
I have a John Deere MC. I only put a tank or two of gas through it a year unless I get calls for excavation work. For it I use Staybil and 1/2 oz of ATF per gallon. IT has been sitting at the cabin since November with the pickled fuel and a maintence battery charger to keep the battery up ready for snow removal. It will fire up no problem when I go up next month simply beacuse the fuel is prepped right. Usually I have to plow several times a year and it has fired up every time since I started prepping it this way. You could argue that the ATF is not needed but I would rather lubricate the topend a bit then have to pull that engine apart.

I used to work at a shop where we worked on anything and some of those old farmers would simply park their tractor in the fall and not even put a can over the exhaust pipe to keep the water out. After working on the same tractor to loosten up the valves the next year I came up with a procedure to prevent the situation and that included toplube.

JoeHall
03-26-2013, 03:26 PM
I have a John Deere MC. I only put a tank or two of gas through it a year unless I get calls for excavation work. For it I use Staybil and 1/2 oz of ATF per gallon. IT has been sitting at the cabin since November with the pickled fuel and a maintence battery charger to keep the battery up ready for snow removal. It will fire up no problem when I go up next month simply beacuse the fuel is prepped right. Usually I have to plow several times a year and it has fired up every time since I started prepping it this way. You could argue that the ATF is not needed but I would rather lubricate the topend a bit then have to pull that engine apart.

I used to work at a shop where we worked on anything and some of those old farmers would simply park their tractor in the fall and not even put a can over the exhaust pipe to keep the water out. After working on the same tractor to loosten up the valves the next year I came up with a procedure to prevent the situation and that included toplube.

I have a 14 HP, 42" cut, Murray riding lawnmower, I bought new at Walmart in 2000. Have used it every year here in KY to keep our 1/2 acre yard mowed. It usually sits inop, from late October till late March every year. Have changed the oil once or twice,. I check the oil, and add gas in the spring when I fire it up. No gas additives or oil changes for winter preservation, no StaBil, no DZZP, etc. Just gas & oil topped up as needed. It still runs great, and if it dies tomorrow, I'll just go get another one. Maybe I'll change the oil this spring, since I cannot recall the last year I did, but then again, maybe I won't. I suppose I should get some DZZP or something for it too.

Hawklover
03-27-2013, 08:31 AM
If you are serious about utilizing TEL in your car, and not the snake oil from the auto parts store..............................order lead supreme 130.....................now available from Wild Bill Corvette outside of Boston Mass. Bill made arrangements to continue the manufacture of the product after the oil company in Utah that made this ceased production.....................too long to explain...................just do web search and speak to him...............................nothing beats TEL............................IF YOU ACTUALLY WANT IT!

Hawklover
03-27-2013, 10:26 AM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=will%20bill%20corvette&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wildbillscorvette.com%2F&ei=PgFTUfGKBczk4APxoYCwBg&usg=AFQjCNEJKEzhjpLzHDfSy4Kslf4lsNyhdA&bvm=bv.44342787,d.dmg

63 R2 Hawk
03-27-2013, 12:47 PM
A tank of 100LL avgas every now and then will help keep things happy if you are interested in running some leaded fuel. I try to keep a little bit of avgas mixed with regular pump gas all the time and use it exclusively in winter if I'm not going to be driving my car very often. Many performance engine builders recommend occasional use of leaded fuel in cars that do not have catalytic converters.