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sbca96
08-19-2007, 02:19 PM
I drove the Avanti again to In N Out Burger in Santa Barbara. My bro
is visiting from Michigan, and he rode with me. He was impressed at
all I have done to it, and I got to show him closeup the brakes. The
drive into town was uneventful, and my wife made the trek in her '95
Z28. She ended up wanting to leave early, so she drove my bro back to
where he was staying in S.B.. I drove home later up North. I made it
halfway home, and ran out of gas. Luckily it was right at the rest
stop, & came to rest about 20 feet from a pay phone. At 2am the wife
filled the 2.5 gallon gas can, and made the 23 mile trek to where the
Avanti died. After pouring gas all over the drivers rear fender, the
car was running again. Got home about 3:30 am, with Avanti smelling
of gas, and an unhappy wife.[V]

When I got the car, the fuel gauge worked, it stopped working a few
years ago, and my solution was to just put 10 bucks in each drive to
and from S.B.. Where should I start in my adventure to get it working
again? How do I confirm the gauge works? What voltage do I look for
at the sender? Thanks for your help.

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

StudeRich
08-19-2007, 03:09 PM
Tom; I believe that at the wire at the gauge from the sender, or at the sender you will find no voltage, only OHM's resistance.

I think we have posts saying how many OHM's on Hawk/Lark, not sure about Avanti. Maybe all independent makes of cars with SW systems are the same, I know they are way diff. than GM.

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

StudeRich
08-19-2007, 03:32 PM
Wow Tom, I just checked the Avanti Shop manual for you to see if they give OHM's readings. But I found something better, on Pg. 4 of the Gasoline Section it discribes how to check out both gauge and sender with no tools, gauges or anything!

Typical simple Stude. stuff. If you don't have the book, I could email what it says, a bit involved.

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

sbca96
08-19-2007, 05:48 PM
Hey thanks ... I dont have the book, only the Studebaker shop manual.
If you can scan the pages, that would be great. I bet its something
simple .. but .. the more info the better before I dive in!

Tom

StudeRich
08-19-2007, 07:13 PM
Tom I have it scanned in but, I cannot make this computer log on to the main page of the forum, only the new post function, so I can't go to your email. Just send me an email and I can return it with the pics of the Manual.
Rich.


quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Hey thanks ... I dont have the book, only the Studebaker shop manual.
If you can scan the pages, that would be great. I bet its something
simple .. but .. the more info the better before I dive in!
Tom

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

StudeRich
08-19-2007, 10:47 PM
OK Tom, I sent the copies of Pg. 4 & 5 of Gasoline Section of the Avanti Workshop Manual fuel gauge and sender testing.

For those of you that are curious, they basically say to disconnect the sender with power on, you should get an "EMPTY" reading. When testing the gage you should get a "FULL" reading when grounding the sender wire. They also tell you how to test the wires.

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

Chucks Stude
08-20-2007, 07:25 AM
$10.00 does not buy the amount of gas that it used to. While it may have been enough before, there is more alcohol and the price has gone up, affecting your ability to make the trip on 10 bucks worth. May have to increase to $15.00, at least.

starlightchamp
08-20-2007, 03:32 PM
Hi Tom,

Check the grounds on the case and the sender top flange. I suggest running a wire from one of the sender mounting bolts to chassis ground. The fuel gauge has two insulated terminals assuming the Avanti's is similiar to my Hawk. 12volts comes in one terminal, goes into a heater coil that moves th pointer by thermal expansion and then flows through an opposing coil that moves the pointer toward empty depending on the sender resistance. The second terminal has a wire that goes to the sender.
My former gauge, with a full tank, would slowly move to half full and then snap to past full. A new gauge fixed the problem but I dissected the bad gauge and watched the action with a bench set up.
Maybe I can find an open heater coil and repair same.
...Dick Curtis

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1083/1186037246_014774ffc3.jpg

John Kirchhoff
08-20-2007, 03:59 PM
Probably the first thing you want to do is to take the little prom queen out to dinner and a movie. That way, if your gauge repair fails and you run out of gas again, you won't find yourself walking/divorced/dead or maybe all three in that order.

sbca96
08-20-2007, 04:05 PM
It says "empty" all the time. So maybe its just a bad connection.

Tom

fmarshall
08-20-2007, 11:17 PM
quote:Originally posted by starlightchamp

Hi Tom,

Check the grounds on the case and the sender top flange. I suggest running a wire from one of the sender mounting bolts to chassis ground. The fuel gauge has two insulated terminals assuming the Avanti's is similiar to my Hawk. 12volts comes in one terminal, goes into a heater coil that moves th pointer by thermal expansion and then flows through an opposing coil that moves the pointer toward empty depending on the sender resistance. The second terminal has a wire that goes to the sender.
My former gauge, with a full tank, would slowly move to half full and then snap to past full. A new gauge fixed the problem but I dissected the bad gauge and watched the action with a bench set up.
Maybe I can find an open heater coil and repair same.
...Dick Curtis

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1083/1186037246_014774ffc3.jpg


My gauge does exactly the same thing that yours did! I was going to check the wire, Now, I'll just test the gauge to see if it repeats the "leap" to full.

I also ran out of gas today, as it has been on empty for a short time and I was certain I had gas. Luckily, it flamed out and coasted (up hill) right into a gas station, right to a pump!! Impeccable timing. Good Studebaker!!

BTW, any luck effecting a repair? Isn't that "heater coil" merely a length of a particular composition of wire a certain length, coiled to act as a resistor? That being the case, it may be fairly easy to make one. The wire, being coiled, gets hot and expands. hat technoloy is employed in lots of relays. one example is the turn signal flaser on old VWs - circa 1950s.

Rerun
08-21-2007, 04:42 AM
When you think Avanti, think electrical grounding issues. Since the body is fiberglass, it cannot provide a ground path like a steel body. Separate ground wires are required. In addition to checking the "hot" side of any circuit, make sure that there is a good ground path. The gauges won't work properly if not adequately grounded.

Jim Bradley
'64 Daytona HT "Rerun"
http://home.earthlink.net/~bradley71771/images/Rerun.jpg

starlightchamp
08-21-2007, 12:15 PM
fmarshall.

The coils are made with resistance wire and measure 200 ohms across the insulated studs.
I haven't been succesful yet in determine why the sudden leap from half full to past full.
The left coil moves the pointer toward full as it heats while the left coil appears to lower the pivot point. I'll play with it some more when I have time and post if I find a way to repair.
The gauge is very hard to find. I finally located one in Nova Scotia-the last one in inventory.
...Dick

Stu63
08-21-2007, 01:27 PM
My Avanti Gauge did the same thing as starlightchap's. Using a spare sender I found that the unit was out of calibration. Using the screwdriver slots on the back of the gauge ( accessible when the gauge is open as shown ) the zero and span can be adjusted until the gauge reads correctly as the fuel level sender is moved thruogh its range. You will need a 12vdc power supply to do the calibration. (Hot to the gauge + gauge - to the sender + sender - to the power supply -.)My gas gauge is back in the car and is working fine. The previous owner had purchased a new sender which was not the problem.

Butler, PA
63 Avanti R1 R2899

fmarshall
08-21-2007, 02:10 PM
Stu63,

Thanks, I'll check that out.

StudeRich
08-21-2007, 03:05 PM
Stu63; do you see the screws in fmarshall's pic of the Hawk gauge? They must be a bit different than Avanti.

On the top left I see something that COULD be a screw though it does not look like it!

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

Stu63
08-21-2007, 04:35 PM
In the picture there is a slot that is visible on the left side of the ppicture. There is a corresponding slot on the other side. Looking from the back of the gauge you can see the slots through a small hole. You can use a small scewdriver in the slot to move the linkage which will move the pointer. Carefull as little movement of the linkage will cause the pointer to move a long way. Once you get the feel of it it is a simple task to calibrate the gauge. Sorry I didn't explain this a little more but the method of calibration is old hat to a retired instrument & control engineer.

Butler, PA
63 Avanti R1 R2899

Stu63
08-21-2007, 07:14 PM
One other thing I forgot to mention is that the gauge must be open as shown in the photos in order to calibrate

Butler, PA
63 Avanti R1 R2899

Karl
08-22-2007, 12:05 AM
And thats the fun part. ;)

63 Twin Supercharged Avanti
64 Avanti R3w/NOS
88LSC Avanti 350 Supercharged w/NOS

fmarshall
08-22-2007, 11:18 AM
Stu63,

Since you have that spare "known good" sending unit, is there a chance that you could post the low and high ohms readings for empty/full. Then I will just get a variable resistor at radio shack and build a test unit for gauge calibration.

And I can post the parts list ...

Stu63
08-22-2007, 12:13 PM
I measured my old sender. The readings were 270ohms @ 0% & 40ohms @ 100%/full. While I was taking the readings I discovered the 0 stop was bent allowing the sender to show a high resistance due to over travel of the pot wiper. It would not hurt to pull your sender and verify the resistance readings through out the range of travel. J.C. Whitney has universal senders in their latest catalog and they show a resistance value of 240-33 ohms for use with the SW gauge. (seepg130) The readings that I got are within the tolerance of my meter when compared to the catalog values. Hope this helps

Butler, PA
63 Avanti R1 R2899

sbca96
02-01-2008, 02:19 AM
Finally got under the dash tonight, and checked the wiring, everything
looked OK, so I pulled the rear seat out, and the fuel tank cover. The
gauge passed the "empty" test, removing the wire with the key on kept
it at empty. Then I tried the lead wire to ground, and the gauge went
all the way up to full. So, it seems I need a new fuel sender. Other
than S.I., is there a cross reference or universal? I remember cutting
a steel arm and attaching a float for my Hawk years ago.

Tom

N8N
02-01-2008, 04:51 AM
you could pull your old sender and see if you could fix it just with some drano or other caustic substance... if the little coil of nichrome isn't broken or bent it probably is not working due to corrosion or varnish.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

JDP
02-01-2008, 07:16 AM
While you have the back seat out, take a good look at the filler and return hose. A minor crack gives you a fuel smell in the cabin, a bad one soaks the carpets with gasoline.

JDP/Maryland
63 R2 SuperHawk (Caesar)
spent to date $54664,75
64 R2 GT (Sid)
spent to date $62,839.60
63 Lark 2 door
57 wagon
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

GTtim
02-01-2008, 08:28 AM
As Rerun mentioned a few posts ago, make sure you have a new ground wire running directly from the sender to a clean spot on the frame. I don't see any mention that you have done this, so I just thought I would bring it up again.

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

sbca96
02-01-2008, 11:17 AM
I put it all back together last night so I could drive it to work in
the morning today. I thought about pulling the sender and leaving the
wires hooked about while moving the float up and down. Since I did
the ground wire to lead wire test, doesnt that eliminate a bad ground?
The gauge responded as it should - going to "full".

Tom

N8N
02-01-2008, 04:15 PM
not unless the "ground wire" connects directly to the sending unit. I don't know, haven't messed with that particular are aof an Avanti.

If you have a multimeter, pull the sender and measure the resistance between the terminal and sender housing as you move the float through its full range of motion. I think it's supposed to sweep smoothly from 240 ohms to 33?

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Karl
02-01-2008, 06:35 PM
A manual with a wiring diagram is in the mail.Had to make up a box to ship it in.;)This will make things easier to figure out.:)And your wife happier.:D

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/twnchgr/Picture2061-1.jpg

sbca96
02-02-2008, 01:44 PM
Thanks Karl!

Tom


quote:Originally posted by Karl

A manual with a wiring diagram is in the mail.Had to make up a box to ship it in.;)This will make things easier to figure out.:)And your wife happier.

HNCadet
02-02-2008, 06:06 PM
Tom,

I think I have a sender unit that I took out of my old Avanti fuel tank. Had a neww SS tank made and the fueo gauge is now part of the in-tank pump. I'll look out in the garage.

Karl
02-02-2008, 09:42 PM
Seems your manual didnt get mailed.[:I]It will go for sure on Monday.:)

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/twnchgr/Picture2061-1.jpg

sbca96
02-03-2008, 05:00 AM
Thanks Chuck ... let me know what you find. Dont worry about it Karl,
whenever it makes it here it will be appreciated.:D

Tom

HNCadet
02-03-2008, 09:34 PM
Tom, I found the sender unit, the float however is deteriorated beyond reuse. I think you have my email address, send me a note where you want me to send it to.

Chuck

sbca96
02-03-2008, 11:49 PM
Email sent![^]

Tom


quote:Originally posted by HNCadet
send me a note where you want me to send it to.

willie j
02-05-2008, 03:13 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Email sent![^]

Tom


quote:Originally posted by HNCadet
send me a note where you want me to send it to.


Tom,

I have fixed a couple of sending units with bad floats by going to an ACE hardware or any hardware that sells corks, and get a cork that you can run the sending unit wire part that holds original cork on the existing float arm. Cork is what I have found in several Stude tanks and just replacing the cork will work if your rheostat part of the sending unit is still ok. You can check this part out by using a ohm meter and watching it as you run the float up and down through it's normal cycle. If the ohm meter has a smooth transition from empty to full levels a new cork is a quick and inexpensive repair.

Bill Jones aka williej

sbca96
02-06-2008, 02:44 AM
Thanks all for the help, and thanks Chuck for getting the replacement
here faster than lightning! I got it tonight. I will try the cork as
a new float, using the one I remove from my old tank as a size guide.
The old sender Chuck sent has no cork at all, but the movement seems
to be good. I will try it in the car this weekend.

Tom

r1lark
02-07-2008, 05:35 AM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Thanks all for the help, and thanks Chuck for getting the replacement
here faster than lightning! I got it tonight. I will try the cork as
a new float, using the one I remove from my old tank as a size guide.
The old sender Chuck sent has no cork at all, but the movement seems
to be good. I will try it in the car this weekend.

Tom

Tom,
Here is another option for the float replacement: http://www.gudim.com/ReplacingCorkFloats.html by our own Henry Votel.

In additon, I have used the black 'foam' style floats that new cars use as replacements for the old cork style floats. The specific one I used was from a '93 Jeep Grand Cherokee electric fuel pump/fuel sender assembly (fuel pump resides in the gas tank) that I replaced in my Jeep, but many others are similar. If you go to a garage that does a lot of late model stuff, they may have some laying around.

Paul
Winston-Salem, NC

Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: http://hometown.aol.com/r1skytop/myhomepage/index.html

Andy R.
02-20-2008, 03:27 AM
Thanks to Henry Votel and his excellently illustrated procedure for replacing the old cork float in the Tech Tips Section.

The brass float works beautifully in my Hawk and the fuel gauge now registers accurately throughout the entire range.

Vise-Grips and a 19/32" socket (to allow for spring back) formed just the right circumference to firmly snap onto the brass float with no play or rotation whatsoever. As such, I skipped the solder.;)

Andy
62 GT