Engine: Seized Engine Update

[Farrier1951]

OK Fellas,
About two weeks ago I posted the thread about the seized engine in my 63 GT Hawk. I asked for guidance and you guys jumped in with all kinds of advise. So, for the last two weeks I have been squirting all kinds of penatrants, and release agents in each cylinder twice a day. Today ,again as advised, I crawled underneath and took a short prybar to the flexgear teeth...and it moved! I pryed a bit more and it moved a bit more. I lay under there working it back and forth for about ten minues and got it to turn complete 360 degrees! It got easier the more I worked at it.

Then I went upstairs and put the breakerbar and a 1-1/8 inch socket on the crank bolt and it turned easy there! Last time I tried that it wouldn't budge! So I added more Mystery oil to each hole and turned it some more. It felt like there was a couple of places around the cycle where it got a little tighter,(stuck valves? bent push rods?). So I am writting to say a great big THANK YOU!!!!!!!! to all of you who responded. You Guys Rock!
So now what do you think? I am thinking to pull the valve covers and check the valve train for stuck valves and/or bent pushrods. I am working on getting a carburator for it too. While underneath I noted that the transmission is blue and the tag on the readend is marked 43-13 and 3-34.

If I find bent pushrods do I need to replace all of them right away or can I just replace any damaged ones?

Thanks again for all the help and don't even think I am done picking all your brains!
Jim

[jackb]

you might be simply turning until you reach the rusted areas in the cylinder(s). At least 2 valves will be open when the engine sits for any length of time (right ?)......If you've got bent rods, and you've turned the engine over and around a few times its likely they are forever bent and I doubt you'll do any additional harm(someone correct me before he tries to start). So I'll venture you can go ahead and try to start it. If it won't run, or it makes all kinds of noise....you gotta open it up anyway...replace and rebuild whats required....and open your wallet. However...if its just sticking in a cylinder or 2, you'll likely get some blow-by and can probably run the engine like 50% of the drivers reading this post right now.....GL

[Farrier1951]

Thanks Jack. Actually I am a ways away from starting her up yet anyway. I need a few parts...like a carb and alternator and a belt and such first. Also after all the wd-40, the chemtool, the Mystery oil and such I have squirted in there I probably better drain the pan, change the filter, and get some fresh oil in there huh?

I am just glad it freed up. Thanks alot friend!
Jim

[hausdok]

Jeez,

I just responded to something similar over at the Packard Info board.

I made my living as a mechanic nearly four decades ago. Back then, if we had an engine seized up we'd drain the sump and leave the plug out and then pour as much Marvel Mystery Oil into each cylinder as the cylinders would hold, put a pan under the sump to catch the oil and then wait. And wait. And wait.

Every morning we'd put a wrench on the front pully nut and give a gentle pull to see if things had freed up, if they hadn't, check to see how much MMO had made it to the sump and into our pan and then we'd top up each cylinder and continue to wait. And wait, And wait..... Waiting was a pain but it cost an owner less than tearing into the motor.

The MMO would usually do the trick and by and by free things up. If, after the engine began turning over, we could spin it with the starter with plugs out (Warning: Put some rags over the valve covers and hang them past the plug holes or you'll have oil sprayed all over the place.) and coil wire grounded and it felt/sounded like things were moving freely, and we were getting proper compression on every cylinder, we'd top it up with some oil, put in the plugs, plug in the coil, cross our fingers and see if it would start.

If it started, we'd have to wait about ten minutes for the white smoke to dissipate and the engine to get warmed up and then start listening for piston slap. Slap meant that the rings were seized to the pistons, in which case we knew we were going to have to tear it down.

Sometimes the smoke didn't dissipate because anti-freeze was leaking into the cylinders and we'd find that we were dealing with a cracked block or a blown head gasket which also meant a tear down. It's one thing to have some rings seize to the cylinder walls because the cylinders are dry; it's quite another to have them seize because water left in the water jacket froze, expanded, cracked the block and got into the cylinders. Here's a tip - the next time you store a motor, use compressed air to blow out the cooling jacket, fill those cylinders with MMO and put some rubber plugs into the spark plug holes so you can occasionally replenish the MMO.

Even if you are able to free the rings from the cylinder walls, there is about a 3-1 likelihood that the rings are not likely to have been freed up from the pistons. The cylinder walls are not the exact same diameter from top to bottom. As the piston moves downward the bottom ring expands and scrapes the cylinder wall free of most oil. As the piston travels upward again that ring and the others compress as the cylinder narrows near the top.

Even if you can turn it over, starting it could damage the motor if the rings have seized to those pistons. With the rings seized to the pistons where they've been compressed, those pistons will start to slap around in those cylinders as they come up because the rings can't expand and keep them centered. Rings that seize to the pistons in the expanded position can gouge their cylinder walls or break piston lands as the pistons move downward in the cylinders. That's why you'll need to check the compression on every cylinder before you try to crank it. If you have a cylinder with extremely low/no compression, don't even bother trying to run it our you'll screw it up.

Another thing you have to worry about is spalled cylinder walls. Sometimes when pistons seize to cylinder walls and are freed up the corrosion leaves microscopic spalling in the cylinder wall. If you break a motor down and the spalling isn't too bad, you can often use a hone to remove the spalling, throw in a new set of rings and put things back together and expect a decent result. If the cylinder walls have spalled and you don't clean them up, that rough spalled area may not scrape very clean and you'll end up with an engine that doesn't use a lot of oil but smokes a lot because of the trace oil left in the spalling.

I just remembered. If you've got a hankering for a new toy for your mailbox, you might have another way to check things out. Harbor Freight sells a relatively inexpensive fiber-optic bore inspection camera. Quality-wise it's nowhere near the quality of the See Snake and other devices made by other tool makers that produce the same device for significantly more but it might be worth the investment if it helps you see that starting that engine could damage it.

I know it's a pain in the keester, but if I were you I'd at least pull the heads and see what I'm dealing with before I tried to start that engine after it has been seized so long. These blocks don't grow on trees. I'd rather have to spend a few more hours getting dirty and sweaty than to stay cleaner and discover later that I'd damaged my engine beyond repair.

Edit: September 1, 2014

Here's a photo of a heat exchanger crack taken inside of a furnace heat exchanger using the HFT borescope with camera from a distance of about 3/8 inch.

[Farrier1951]

Wow. Darn! I hate to admit it but everything you say makes sense Mike. I am glad it is freed up, but in the back of my mind there was that niggleing thought that being froze like that had to have some lingering effect. I brought the car up from Sacremento this past summer. The radiator was out of the car and the thermostat housing is open so I am hoping there is no water damage but we will see. I also worry about old freeze plugs. Will all of the penetrants and mystery oil damage main bearings and seals, if they re not already damaged? Anyway thanks for the good advise and I will adopt a go slow tactic and make sure I don't let my eagerness do any greater damage.
Jim

[hausdok]

Hi,

I don't think MMO will damage the seals but I can't speak for any other kind of penetrant you might have used. Some will cause the front and rear main seals to get all wavy and soft.

Freeing up a seized engine is a crapshoot. Sometimes you win but more often than not you roll snake eyes.

Go slowly.

[SN-60]

Jeez,

I just responded to something similar over at the Packard Info board.

I made my living as a mechanic nearly four decades ago. Back then, if we had an engine seized up we'd drain the sump and leave the plug out and then pour as much Marvel Mystery Oil into each cylinder as the cylinders would hold, put a pan under the sump to catch the oil and then wait. And wait. And wait.

Every morning we'd put a wrench on the front pully nut and give a gentle pull to see if things had freed up, if they hadn't, check to see how much MMO had made it to the sump and into our pan and then we'd top up each cyclinder and continue to wait. And wait, And wait..... Waiting was a pain but it cost an owner less than tearing into the motor.

The MMO would usually do the trick and by and by free things up. If, after the engine began turning over, we could spin it with the starter with plugs out (Warning: Put some rags over the valve covers and hang them past the plug holes or you'll have oil sprayed all over the place.) and coil wire grounded and it felt/sounded like things were moving freely, and we were getting proper compression on every cylinder, we'd top it up with some oil, put in the plugs, plug in the coil, cross our fingers and see if it would start.

If it started, we'd have to wait about ten minutes for the white smoke to dissipate and the engine to get warmed up and then start listening for piston slap. Slap meant that the rings were seized to the pistons, in which case we knew we were going to have to tear it down.

Sometimes the smoke didn't dissipate because anti-freeze was leaking into the cylinders and we'd find that we were dealing with a cracked block or a blown head gasket which also meant a tear down. It's one thing to have some rings seize to the cylinder walls because the cylinders are dry; it's quite another to have them seize because water left in the water jacket froze, expanded, cracked the block and got into the cylinders. Here's a tip - the next time you store a motor, use compressed air to blow out the cooling jacket, fill those cylinders with MMO and put some rubber plugs into the spark plug holes so you can occasionally replenish the MMO.

Even if you are able to free the rings from the cylinder walls, there is about a 3-1 likelihood that the rings are not likely to have been freed up from the pistons. The cylinder walls are not the exact same diameter from top to bottom. As the piston moves downward the bottom ring expands and scrapes the cylinder wall free of most oil. As the piston travels upward again that ring and the others compress as the cylinder narrows near the top.

Even if you can turn it over, starting it could damage the motor if the rings have seized to those pistons. With the rings seized to the pistons where they've been compressed, those pistons will start to slap around in those cylinders as they come up because the rings can't expand and keep them centered. Rings that seize to the pistons in the expanded position can gouge their cylinder walls or break piston lands as the pistons move downward in the cylinders. That's why you'll need to check the compression on every cylinder before you try to crank it. If you have a cylinder with extremely low/no compression, don't even bother trying to run it our you'll screw it up.

Another thing you have to worry about is spalled cylinder walls. Sometimes when pistons seize to cylinder walls and are freed up the corrosion leaves microscopic spalling in the cylinder wall. If you break a motor down and the spalling isn't too bad, you can often use a hone to remove the spalling, throw in a new set of rings and put things back together and expect a decent result. If the cylinder walls have spalled and you don't clean them up, that rough spalled area may not scrape very clean and you'll end up with an engine that doesn't use a lot of oil but smokes a lot because of the trace oil left in the spalling.

I just remembered. If you've got a hankering for a new toy for your mailbox, you might have another way to check things out. Harbor Freight sells a relatively inexpensive fiber-optic bore inspection camera. Quality-wise it's nowhere near the quality of the See Snake and other devices made by other tool makers that produce the same device for significantly more but it might be worth the investment if it helps you see that starting that engine could damage it.

I know it's a pain in the keester, but if I were you I'd at least pull the heads and see what I'm dealing with before I tried to start that engine after it has been seized so long. These blocks don't grow on trees. I'd rather have to spend a few more hours getting dirty and sweaty than to stay cleaner and discover later that I'd damaged my engine beyond repair.

Very well said Mike!

[hausdok]

Thank you, Sir.

Just trying to contribute where I can.

[avantilover]

Speaking for myself - I recently had my engine stripped and rebuilt even though it ran well, but it leaked a bit and needed removal to replace the rear main seal.

They were amazed at the amount of "!@#$~" in it, and although mainly ok there were damaged valve seats, and the big end bearings required replacement. My mechanic related that the fuel pump gasket was ready to blow anytime so I got lucky and haven't needed a tow after pump failure.
The upshot is these engines are (in my case 51 years old and a stripdown and look won't hurt, you then have piece of mind that all issues have been addressed before reassembly.

Best wishes with your engine and car.

[oldsalt]

I collect antique engines of the usual hit and miss type. Frozen pistons are the norm. As they are usually one cylinder engines it is not all that difficult to get the piston unstuck using several means that can't be used on a modern automobile engine. The problem then is that the rings are often frozen in the grooves and usually new rings are not an option unless you wish to make them or mortgage the house to have then made. So my method of removing rings without without damaging [breaking] the rings, and more importantly the piston, is to use a strong [commercial] liquid acid type soldering flux. Forget oil; no matter what it says on the label about unsticking parts it is BS. Oil only can work after the parts have moved a tiny bit and it can then get between the stuck parts. Using a feather flame from a propane torch the ring area is gently warmed and then the acid applied. Do this over and over and finally [it has never failed me] a portion of a ring will pop out. RESIST any urge to pry on the ring. NO TOOLS! The acid [unlike inert oil] will reduce the oxides to a nitrate or some other form that allows the ring to free its self. This works only if you have patience and faith. Keep working and you will have freed rings. Admittedly you might not want to put the piston and rings back in an automotive engine. Have unstuck pistons and rings in motorcycles and put them back in with success. It is a matter of judgement if just the rings or both rings and piston should be replaced. Any time you try this with any thing be sure to never get the parts too hot; if the acid boils off that is as hot as you should strive for.

[Mike Van Veghten]

Farrier -

Remember...with all this cool "unseizing" stuff...that or those cylinders will not perform verywell.
Even if there are no rings stick in the pistons, and the valves continue to move until they get oiled, you've got corroded areas in the affected cylinder cylinders and rings that have pitted areas in them.

Again, while the engine may run, gas milage will be down, power will be down and oil milage will most probably be up.

I really don't understand why people do this, myself. You could have been saving for a proper rebuild all the while the parts were seizing together.

Mike

P.s. - ""Have unstuck pistons and rings in motorcycles and put them back in with success.""
How was the "success" measured ? I can guarantee not by dynamic compression or leak-down numbers.

[Tom Bredehoft]

In summation, its a good think you loosened your engine, the mechanic who rebuilds it will bless you, and not charge your for doing it.

[Farrier1951]

Thanks Guys,
Yes I get it. Time to start making plans to make a nearly new motor from a 50 year old motor. Thanks for all the good imput! You Guys stll rock!
Jim

[hawk58man]

Good job Farrier,way to wait it out and getting it to rotate. Sometimes the wait is the worst thing..At least you know it rotates and you can tear it down for the rebuild. Marvel Mystery oil to the rescue. My 61 Hawk 's 289 was the same way, finally got angry at it and dropped the starter moved the flexplate with a screwdriver and move 1/2'. I looked at bellhousing were starter was located,and saw a really small piece of red material there . Started and finally removing a large mouse nest made up of carpet and jute. The mouse used the view hole at 12 o clock on the top the transmission,to bring carpet and jute backing to make a large nest inside the bellhousing area. When the last owner of this Hawk tried to start the engine,it wouldn't and would act as it was seized up.. Anyway,I pulled the plugs put Marvel Mystery in the cylinders ,cleared the carpet jam on the flexplate got it to rotate 360 degrees with no problems. put plugs back in ,pulled coil wire out, serviced /checked new oil turned over the engine to make sure I got good oil pressure, connected coil wire, got it some clean gas, and it fired up the the second try. Engine has a good oil pressure. This Hawks original owner was a mechanic so he did take care of it. Nothing better than getting it fired up!! Good Job! will be waiting to read your next future posts on your Hawk.. Mike.

[Farrier1951]

Thanks Mike! I was assessing the 62 GT and saw a little hole in the headliner. There was a string hanging out. I pulled the string and it was attached to a mummified mouse's butt. Anyway I am pleased to get the engine to at least rotate. I want to try to start it just to hear it fire but I am resisting...for now. I'll keep ya posted.
Jim