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BobPalma
01-05-2013, 08:03 AM
Sometimes, I don't think so:

48-year-old Marc Heitz invests $20,000,000 in a gorgeous, area-correct Chevrolet dealership and becomes Oklahoma's #1 Chevrolet dealer. He moves almost 2,000 new units a year, including #3 in national Corvette sales.

So the marketing geniuses at Chevrolet Division, most of whom I dare say are yet to retail their first used car -much less a new one- to an actual paying customer, tell him he doesn't "comply" and he tells them to stuff it! Geeze, his "outdoorsy" dealership is in Norman OK, for Pete's sake, not downtown Manhattan! And if he isn't doing something right, how is he selling all those cars [and undoubtedly more profitable] trucks?


http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss155/BobPalma/heitzchev1_zpsdee6443a.jpg

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss155/BobPalma/heitzchev2_zps14e13596.jpg


Bully for Marc; I hope he came out the multi-millionaire he deserves to be!

'Gotta love Marc's closing statement viv-a-vis said marketing geniuses, "My guess is they won't be around to see the results of their actions." You can say that again, Marc...and I wish future generations of U.S. taxpayers weren't on the hook to bear the brunt of their stupidity, either. (I'm all for you sleeping in the bed you make, not the one somebody else makes for you without your consent.) :cool: BP

R_David
01-05-2013, 08:18 AM
Amazing article, thanks for sharing Bob!

Chris Pile
01-05-2013, 08:43 AM
That made some local news... I was surprised that GM was that myopic, but I guess those monolithic ways of thinking continue to hamstring the company.

BobPalma
01-05-2013, 08:48 AM
That made some local news... I was surprised that GM was that myopic, but I guess those monolithic ways of thinking continue to hamstring the company.

You got that right, Chris; there is no excuse for this manifold stupidity. ;) BP

8E45E
01-05-2013, 09:03 AM
As taxpayers, don't WE now have a say??!?

Craig

BobPalma
01-05-2013, 09:17 AM
As taxpayers, don't WE now have a say??!? Craig

Uhhhh.....NO! :mad:

(Actually, I almost said something about your being a Canadian, Craig, until I remembered that your government, too, has an "investment" in The New Generous Motors!) :ohmy: BP

t walgamuth
01-05-2013, 09:19 AM
We did in November.;)

Of course the government could have allowed GM to fail.....

jclary
01-05-2013, 09:30 AM
Well...we shouldn't really be surprised. GM's advertizing wants to promote their traditions. Problem is...for almost three decades, the tradition they have been building is mediocrity. "Give a little more than you promise," is a slogan that is not something that GM could be accused of even thinking about, let alone using.

Thanks to the decline in the quality of our public education system, continuing decline of average folks with an interest and understanding of "things mechanical," ...the public "herd mentality" allows this stuff to limp along. I have a feeling that today's society would be a very attractive playground for a marketing genus like P.T. Barnum. Couple this with the spoiled Ivy League snobs of today's Government/Corporate "in-crowd who only sees the real country from the lofty altitude of a first-class airline window...and you see the results.

Plenty of brain cells...just focused in the wrong places.

BobPalma
01-05-2013, 09:33 AM
We did in November.;) Of course the government could have allowed GM to fail.....

....or proceed through a normal bankruptcy according to established bankruptcy law like half the airlines seem do every six months...and continue flying nonetheless.

(OK; we probably ought to keep the topic on the questionability of some current General Motors marketing decisions...although, admittedly, realities have made it difficult to keep politics out of those decisions!)

So, back to Chevrolet Division's current marketing wisdom...or lack thereof.

Marc Heitz' situation is big enough that some people at The General really ought to have their bells rung, IMHO: The bad press it garnered can't help anybody in the long run. It just makes no sense to people with common sense who live in the real world out here.

Consider the uniqueness and appeal of Marc's dealership, such that it became a destination in and of itself. Marc Heitz likely knows more about good, effective Chevrolet marketing in and around Norman OK than the entirety of Chevrolet Division's self-anointed brain trust. :woot: BP

Gunslinger
01-05-2013, 09:43 AM
....or proceed through a normal bankruptcy according to established bankruptcy law like half the airlines seem do every six months...and continue flying nonetheless.

(OK; we probably ought to keep the topic on the questionability of some current General Motors marketing decisions...although, admittedly, realities have made it difficult to keep politics out of those decisions!)BP


Thanks for saying that, Bob. I didn't as I didn't want to be accused of starting a flame war discussing such esoteric stuff like statutory law, legal precedents and other mundane subjects.

t walgamuth
01-05-2013, 09:57 AM
I thought as I read the story about selling the dealership that perhaps there were other reasons he wanted to sell the dealership he preferred not to mention. After all the person who bought it obviously thought there was money to be made with it. I have some friends who are lawyers who say whenever someone says its not the money its the principle of the thing....."Its always the money".

(I don't necessarily agree but I believe it's nearly always the money).


....or proceed through a normal bankruptcy according to established bankruptcy law like half the airlines seem do every six months...and continue flying nonetheless.

(OK; we probably ought to keep the topic on the questionability of some current General Motors marketing decisions...although, admittedly, realities have made it difficult to keep politics out of those decisions!)

So, back to Chevrolet Division's current marketing wisdom...or lack thereof.

Marc Heitz' situation is big enough that some people at The General really ought to have their bells rung, IMHO: The bad press it garnered can't help anybody in the long run. It just makes no sense to people with common sense who live in the real world out here.

Consider the uniqueness and appeal of Marc's dealership, such that it became a destination in and of itself. Marc Heitz likely knows more about good, effective Chevrolet marketing in and around Norman OK than the entirety of Chevrolet Division's self-anointed brain trust. :woot: BP

Chris Pile
01-05-2013, 10:04 AM
After all the person who bought it obviously thought there was money to be made with it.

Sure. But only after converting the dealerships facade back to bellybutton conformity of the GM hivemind.

JDP
01-05-2013, 12:34 PM
Basic question: Why should GM pay Heitz his $250,000 quarterly dealer-excellence incentive if he chooses to be in not be be part of corporate branding plan to qualify ? Even Studebaker introduced a "Uniform Identity Program" that dealers could chose to adopt or ignore. The dealer chose to make his dealership look like a Bass Pro shop with none of the required Bow tie signage that would have qualified him for the million/year branding plan as is his choice. He instead decided to sell it to someone who agreed to the GM branding plan. If he felt the Bass Pro Shop look was worth more to his bottom line than the GM branding plans million fine, but he has no right to the bonus money without complying.

At Best Buy we get vendor support from Samsung for example. We have to use Samsung supplied displays, only their demo DVD's and the rest. Best Buy could refuse, but if they did, why should they get the extra vendor support for Samsung approved displays without so complying ?.

63 R2 Hawk
01-05-2013, 12:41 PM
Sounds like some Washington DC bureacracy rubbed off when GM sold their soul to (the government).

t walgamuth
01-05-2013, 12:47 PM
Sounds like some Washington DC bureacracy rubbed off when GM sold their soul to (the government).

Like, left on their own GM couldn't make any bonehead decisions?

That's why they needed the bailout!;)

BobPalma
01-05-2013, 02:05 PM
Basic question: Why should GM pay Heitz his $250,000 quarterly dealer-excellence incentive if he chooses to be in not be be part of corporate branding plan to qualify? Even Studebaker introduced a "Uniform Identity Program" that dealers could chose to adopt or ignore. The dealer chose to make his dealership look like a Bass Pro shop with none of the required Bow tie signage that would have qualified him for the million/year branding plan as is his choice. He instead decided to sell it to someone who agreed to the GM branding plan. If he felt the Bass Pro Shop look was worth more to his bottom line than the GM branding plans million fine, but he has no right to the bonus money without complying.

At Best Buy we get vendor support from Samsung for example. We have to use Samsung supplied displays, only their demo DVD's and the rest. Best Buy could refuse, but if they did, why should they get the extra vendor support for Samsung approved displays without so complying?

The article says Chevrolet Sales Chief Don Johnson visited the store and "rejected a Heitz compromise." We don't know what compromise Heitz suggested, so it's inappropriate to speculate on that. Since Marc did offer a compromise, however, it testifies to his being willing to work with Chevrolet to resolve the issue, even if they didn't like his idea(s). It verifies that he did not assume a hard-nosed, "my way or the highway" posture, which would have been to offer no compromise.

What is known is this: The guy is the #1 Chevrolet dealer in OK and #3 nationally in [prestigeous, profitable] Corvettes. Being in a rural area, his percentage of more-profitable trucks is probably pretty high as well. There are no allegations that his Customer Service Index is less than satisfactory, and since the whole place is less than 5 years old, there likely aren't facility maintenance issues being neglected.

Common Sense would dictate that a dealer of his age (48) with this investment and track record in barely 12 years (it says he started in 2000) should be sought out for counsel as to how General Motors might sell more Chevrolets, rather than General Motors counseling him on how to run his business. After all,

Who was more successful in the last five years: Marc Heitz or General Motors?

Granted, recognizing "all the above" for its true value does involve common sense, a commodity not necessarily required of people currently involved with General Motors "investments" and such. IF your prime objective is to sell new Chevrolets, you pay attention to people who are doing a damn good job of it and learn from them, rather than imposing your will sourced elsewhere. At the end of the day, it's as simple as that....or should be. In a nutshell, that's the answer to Basic Question: Because the guy has proven his worth as a Chevrolet dealer.

Best Buy is not an exclusive franchised dealer for Samsung or any other electronic line, AFAIK. Samsung knows it is competing within each store with the other brands Best Buy sells, so it makes sense for them to give "vendor support" (i.e., spiffs) to Best Buy to promote Samsung over the other brands available under the same roof.

Samsung will of course require certain signage and exposure for Best Buy to receive the spiffs; that is to be expected. After all, Samsung is competing for shelf space and position at Best Buy stores. OTOH, Chevrolet is certainly not competing for showroom space at Marc Heitz' exclusively-Chevrolet dealership; they've already got it all!

If Marc Heitz had a mega-store with multiple franchises (Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Hyundai, etc) under one roof OR if Best Buy sold Samsung exclusively, then a Heitz/Chevrolet versus Best Buy/Samsung comparison would be valid. As it is, he doesn't sell other makes and Best Buy does, so marketing comparisons as to signage and spiffs are inappropriate.

(Heck, I remember stocking grocery store shelves 'way back in the early 1960s when the Purina man would come around with little goodies for stock boys if we'd bump a row of General Mills or Kellogg's cereals aside and give that row to Rice, Corn, or Wheat Chex...but that was because we didn't sell Purina or General Mills or Kellogg's cereals exclusively. For you young 'uns; Ralston-Purina used to manufacture and market Chex Cereals, not General Mills that has them today.)

We may assume Marc Heitz did what he did because he wanted to do it, or it was the least offensive of several options available to him. What he did does not alter the fact that the hard-nose position General Motors took was probably not in their long-term best interest. That's my not-so-humble opinion based on:

Being engrossed in the automobile market since reading Packard dealer material in my Dad's office at age 7 in 1953 (that would be 59 years running, now), and essentially raising two great kids on my income alone as a car buyer. (It was not supplemented by retirement income from another source or my wife working outside our home, so I had to know what I was doing.) Hence, I think I'm in a position to pass judgment on the foolishness of General Motors' apparent disregard and/or disrespect of Marc Heitz...in addition to being conscripted to "invest" in the subject company whether or not I consider it to be intelligently managed. ;) BP

sweetolbob
01-05-2013, 05:28 PM
The article says Chevrolet Sales Chief Don Johnson visited the store and "rejected a Heitz compromise." We don't know what compromise Heitz suggested, so it's inappropriate to speculate on that. Since Marc did offer a compromise, however, it testifies to his being willing to work with Chevrolet to resolve the issue, even if they didn't like his idea(s). It verifies that he did not assume a hard-nosed, "my way or the highway" posture, which would have been to offer no compromise.

We may assume Marc Heitz did what he did because he wanted to do it, or it was the least offensive of several options available to him. What he did does not alter the fact that the hard-nose position General Motors took was probably not in their long-term best interest. That's my not-so-humble opinion based on:

Being engrossed in the automobile market since reading Packard dealer material in my Dad's office at age 7 in 1953 (that would be 59 years running, now), and essentially raising two great kids on my income alone as a car buyer. (It was not supplemented by retirement income from another source or my wife working outside our home, so I had to know what I was doing.) Hence, I think I'm in a position to pass judgment on the foolishness of General Motors' apparent disregard and/or disrespect of Marc Heitz...in addition to being conscripted to "invest" in the subject company whether or not I consider it to be intelligently managed. ;) BP


BP

I'm sure glad I waited to respond to the post until I got to the bottom and read your response. I was thinking along the same lines but you put it way better than I could have. Well said. :!:

My guess in these situations is that some consulting group collected a lot of money suggesting that you need to make all aspects of your business recognizable to the general public, therefore everything must be like McDonalds, every franchise like every other franchise. But we know the even Mickey D's will bend if pushed.

It gives the GM folks an easy out if their market or some dealerships go down 'cause it wasn't them, it was the consultants and it sure as heck made their jobs easier at the same time.

Bob

1962larksedan
01-05-2013, 05:37 PM
Sounds like some Washington DC bureacracy rubbed off when GM sold their soul to (the government).

Wash DC native here and I have to agree with your assessment. Common sense ain't.

JBOYLE
01-05-2013, 05:46 PM
Like, left on their own GM couldn't make any bonehead decisions?
That's why they needed the bailout!;)

Quite.
I could have run the company better (certainly no worse) than the suited up monkeys who managed to bankrupt a firm that not that long ago had 60% of the largest car market in the world.

And at the risk of being told off for being "political" I'll simply note that bureaucracy is the enemy of common sense.
"No matter how nice your building is...it HAS to look like this. We don't care if you make money or people like it...it HAS to look like this."

As has already been said...sounds like D.C. has rubbed off on GM.

Flashback
01-05-2013, 05:50 PM
Some of yall are just hung up on "bowtie". I guess yall must have blinders on. Course, most don't know what blinders are anyway. I guess I just talked myself out of voicing my opinion here. LOL

BobPalma
01-05-2013, 06:06 PM
BP

I'm sure glad I waited to respond to the post until I got to the bottom and read your response. I was thinking along the same lines but you put it way better than I could have. Well said. :!:

My guess in these situations is that some consulting group collected a lot of money suggesting that you need to make all aspects of your business recognizable to the general public, therefore everything must be like McDonalds, every franchise like every other franchise. But we know the even Mickey D's will bend if pushed.

It gives the GM folks an easy out if their market or some dealerships go down 'cause it wasn't them, it was the consultants and it sure as heck made their jobs easier at the same time. Bob

Absolutely, Bob. :!:

Visit a McDonald's in a tony, uppity town carefully preserving its character and charm and that Mickey-Ds won't look like any other McDonald's in the world. Just up the road from us in little Zionsville IN is a good example; Zionsville puts any would-be franchised new business through the ringer and back out before deigning to let them build a store. (There was even a Chevrolet dealer in Zionsville until about 25 years ago. He had the cutest little cottage-like building / showroom you could imagine...with a GREAT BIG dealership hidden behind it.)

People still know The Golden Arches, however subtle they appear, and they'll surely recognize Chevrolet's Gold Bow Tie as well...hmmm...come to think of it, wasn't it a pretty porcelainized BLUE for about 80 years until yet another marketing genius decided it needed to be GOLD what, 20 years ago? There sure are a lot of people with too much time on their hands...

Our 1996 Lumina (207,800 miles and going strong, too) has a BLUE bow tie on front, whereas our 2008 Impala has a GOLD one. I once asked our resident Chevrolet authority, Bill Pressler, when they went from blue to gold and stumped him! I figured if HE didn't know, I'd never find out, so gave up the quest.) :cool: BP

1962larksedan
01-06-2013, 08:38 AM
BP

I'm sure glad I waited to respond to the post until I got to the bottom and read your response. I was thinking along the same lines but you put it way better than I could have. Well said. :!:

My guess in these situations is that some consulting group collected a lot of money suggesting that you need to make all aspects of your business recognizable to the general public, therefore everything must be like McDonalds, every franchise like every other franchise. But we know the even Mickey D's will bend if pushed.

It gives the GM folks an easy out if their market or some dealerships go down 'cause it wasn't them, it was the consultants and it sure as heck made their jobs easier at the same time.

Bob


Visit a McDonald's in a tony, uppity town carefully preserving its character and charm and that Mickey-Ds won't look like any other McDonald's in the world. Just up the road from us in little Zionsville IN is a good example; Zionsville puts any would-be franchised new business through the ringer and back out before deigning to let them build a store. (There was even a Chevrolet dealer in Zionsville until about 25 years ago. He had the cutest little cottage-like building / showroom you could imagine...with a GREAT BIG dealership hidden behind it.)

People still know The Golden Arches, however subtle they appear, and they'll surely recognize Chevrolet's Gold Bow Tie as well...hmmm...come to think of it, wasn't it a pretty porcelainized BLUE for about 80 years until yet another marketing genius decided it needed to be GOLD what, 20 years ago? There sure are a lot of people with too much time on their hands...

Our 1996 Lumina (207,800 miles and going strong, too) has a BLUE bow tie on front, whereas our 2008 Impala has a GOLD one. I once asked our resident Chevrolet authority, Bill Pressler, when they went from blue to gold and stumped him! I figured if HE didn't know, I'd never find out, so gave up the quest.) :cool: BP



McDonald's: the one in Sedona, Az. has teal (greenish blue) colored arches although in all fairness, that store still has that Mickey D's vibe*. Apparently Sedona gets upset over having bright colors on any signage, even if famous/well known ones since they 'clash' with the Red Rocks there.

*But: I'm rather upset at McDonald's in general since the newer ones certainly don't resemble the famous Golden Arches of the mid/late 20th Century.

DEEPNHOCK
01-06-2013, 08:59 AM
Those are very good points, and need to be considered in the article.
I see a whole bunch of companies getting bought and sold, especially with the economy as disjointed as it is.
But, without putting hot button names to it all....
The owner of that real estate is probably still the owner of that real estate.
Most dealers lease the property and building.
Heck, most companies want to lease, rather than own.
So, the landlord used to own the Chevy dealership.
If he found another marque to lease the building, even if it is because GM exercised it's dealer conformity clause....
He found another tenant for his property.
He still makes money.
Now, if he built a 'castle' and can't afford his mortgage payments, he falls into the great American tradition of spending too much without being able to afford it.
I am going through this with one of my distributors.
After 50 years in business, they sold out to a nationwide chain.
Their choice.
He retained ownership of the property.
The new owners are going to close their other location in town, where they have been for a long time.
They are moving into the previous owners building because it is newer, and better suited to their business model.
So the previous owner still has a long term lease revenue stream coming in on his property.
These are details that news stories leave out a lot of the time and the context gets lost in the writers attempt to make it controversial and timely.
Not taking sides with the GM deal, just pointing out that there is probably way more to the story than what was written in the paper.
Jeffhttp://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/images/icons/icon6.png


Basic question: Why should GM pay Heitz his $250,000 quarterly dealer-excellence incentive if he chooses to be in not be be part of corporate branding plan to qualify ? Even Studebaker introduced a "Uniform Identity Program" that dealers could chose to adopt or ignore. The dealer chose to make his dealership look like a Bass Pro shop with none of the required Bow tie signage that would have qualified him for the million/year branding plan as is his choice. He instead decided to sell it to someone who agreed to the GM branding plan. If he felt the Bass Pro Shop look was worth more to his bottom line than the GM branding plans million fine, but he has no right to the bonus money without complying.

At Best Buy we get vendor support from Samsung for example. We have to use Samsung supplied displays, only their demo DVD's and the rest. Best Buy could refuse, but if they did, why should they get the extra vendor support for Samsung approved displays without so complying ?.

sweetolbob
01-06-2013, 10:03 AM
Posted by DEEPNHOCK

Not taking sides with the GM deal, just pointing out that there is probably way more to the story than what was written in the paper.

Jeff, I don't doubt that for a minute but BP (I think) and I were addressing the issue of rewarding their dealers based on conformity not performance. Otherwise the $250K would not have been an issue.

Although my background is technical, I've been on a number of marketing teams both corporate and customer. It's interesting to watch good ones function as well as the non-so-good. My rating is not based on my criteria but success in the marketplace. On the whole, the good ones seem to be successful because they took the time to know their market and customers and used that data to plan the strategy. The not-so-good seemed generally to accept input that met their criteria more than the market and customers. I've watches businesses fail that were sold for pennies on the dollar and the buyer made them successful because he/they put a better plan into the market.

My ringside seat to the GM thing has certainly put me in the mindset that they could do better based on a lot of observation and contacts in the company and industry. It just looks to me like business a usual at the GM headquarters.

JMHO, Bob

Dick Steinkamp
01-06-2013, 01:38 PM
I understand that "haters gotta hate". On this forum this includes (but is not limited to) posts about General Motors, Toyota, small block Chevy's, modified Studebakers, and random cars from eBay listings that we hope don't belong to forum members or lurkers or friends of forum members.

This isn't true of any other forums I visit. You only have to poke in on our friends over at Studebaker Truck Talk...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/23885/

...to see an example of a group of vintage vehicle guys and gals who don't pride themselves on being "happiest when they are unhappy". They don't need a moderator because they are civil to each other and respect the fact that others may not share their same political and hot button topic views AND that pounding those type of subjects at every opportunity makes more enemies than friends.

BTW, STT "voted" overwhelmingly to steer clear of becoming a part of this forum...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/23885/message/1354977972/Move+STT+to+the+SDC+Forum-

The reasons given are not something this forum should be proud of and that it should be trying hard to change, IF the future of the SDC is actually important.



You have to be REAL creative to turn the facts about the Oklahoma dealership into a hate rant, but when that's a priority it can be (and was) done, both in the newspaper article and even more so in this thread.


The facts are, everyone wins with the change of hands of the dealership. Customers retain access to a dealership they obviously liked, GM keeps a high performing dealership in the line up, the former owner leaves with a basket full of money and his convictions, the new owner is able to add a proven dealership to his holdings.

I don't know how much it helped sales having the dealership look like a Cabelas . Maybe some. I would also think location, pricing, selection, staff, service, advertising, cost control, community involvement, etc. also played a role. Maybe a bigger role?


Jeff's last lines in his post say a lot...

"These are details that news stories leave out a lot of the time and the context gets lost in the writers attempt to make it controversial and timely.

Not taking sides with the GM deal, just pointing out that there is probably way more to the story than what was written in the paper."


BUT...when you HATE GM, it makes for pretty good subject matter for the SDC forum.

This is what we want to be known for?

JBOYLE
01-06-2013, 05:45 PM
Dick

I'm not sure disliking a company policy is worthy of the hate moniker. Do you agree with everything WalMart/Amazon/ExxonMobil/Starbucks does? Do you hate it? I hope not.
I don't like Chevys...but that doesn't mean I hate them. I give people more credit than assuming everyone whoo i disagree with is a "hater". After reading your post, I'm not sure you do.

Disagreement is not hate or disloyal. At least I read that on a bumber sticker during the last administration. (It was on my 20 year-old female barber's car before she moved to Portland). :)
Now, it seems if you disagree with anyone...for any reason, even sound ones...you're a hater, wacko, nutjob, racist, Nazi...my, how times have changed.

If you don't like the company you choose to keep here...:ohmy:
We seem to disagree a lot...I sure hope you don't lump me in with a hate group because of that.
If you do...I'd like an apology.

Peace.

Dick Steinkamp
01-06-2013, 07:07 PM
BIG difference between disagreeing with a company policy (once you have all the facts), and what's been posted here...

ANY functioning brain cells in GM Marketing?
marketing geniuses at Chevrolet Division
bear the brunt of their stupidity
manifold stupidity
it a pretty porcelainized BLUE for about 80 years until yet another marketing genius decided it needed to be GOLD
Sounds like some Washington DC bureacracy rubbed off when GM sold their soul to (the government)
Chevrolet Division's self-anointed brain trust.
Generous Motors
some people at The General really ought to have their bells rung
It just makes no sense to people with common sense who live in the real world out here.
suited up monkeys

I understand that it is a long shot that I could change any hearts and minds here and convince any of those involved that this type of post just might discourage both current and future members to become a part of SDC. That some members here just might actually LIKE GM products and hope that a US auto manufacturer succeeds in spite of mistakes they have made in the past. That the percentage of current (and future) members that do not hate GM just might be significant. That not everyone thinks exactly like they do on every political and hot button issue.

It's obviously OK here to express your (strong) feelings on essentially any subject. I would just ask you to consider what doing so means to the future of Studebakering.

62champ
01-06-2013, 07:22 PM
Mr. Steinkamp - think you might be getting into some territory that says alot about our world today.

There is a radio program on Sunday mornings that the female commentator was talking about what you have pointed at in your posts. Her show is about religion, focuses a lot on Christianity (because that is the majority of the audience) but it also looks at many of the world's major religions. A few weeks back she was saying how hard it has become to find people to come on the show. She says that while they want to talk about their viewpoint on some topic, many of them do not want to hear another side of the argument because those people "are wrong, and their view is not worthy of hearing."

Just because someone feels different about something does not mean they need to be "converted" or ignored because it does not line up with your way of thinking. We should rejoice in the fact that everyone is not the same.

pdrnec
01-06-2013, 07:26 PM
It's obviously OK here to express your (strong) feelings on essentially any subject.

No, it is not - there is a narrow band of acceptable strong opinions here. We all pretty much know what they are. Hating on Chevy is one of them.

I'm truly shocked that GM doesn't have a marketing person monitoring this forum. It is likely the only reason they are not ruling the world ;) .

8E45E
01-06-2013, 07:38 PM
Uhhhh.....NO! :mad:

(Actually, I almost said something about your being a Canadian, Craig, until I remembered that your government, too, has an "investment" in The New Generous Motors!) :ohmy:

Indeed Bob, and if something isn't done for Opel real soon, the German government could be another stakeholder in Generous Motors.

Craig

JBOYLE
01-06-2013, 07:49 PM
That the percentage of current (and future) members that do not hate GM just might be significant.

Again, you're assuming others hate GM because they disagree with it.
How do you get hate from commenting about a huge impersonal firm? Really?

I've never been a GM guy...sorry. Nothing personal...growing up my family had a Pontiac, Cadillacs, Ramblers, a Ford...I hope I didn't hurt GM's feelings.
But because some of my tax money had to bail them out gives me some right to comment on them.
As I said before...it took a lot of terrible decisions over a very long time to wreck a company that was once so mighty.
It's almost beyond belief.

Studedude
01-06-2013, 08:09 PM
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/536554_4743712469705_272864338_n.jpg

8E45E
01-06-2013, 08:16 PM
Since 2004, I would have to agree, and Dodge, too. That new 2014 GMC/Chev truck will make or break GM.

Craig

BobPalma
01-06-2013, 08:28 PM
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/536554_4743712469705_272864338_n.jpg

Thanks for the levity, Dave; much needed and appreciated. :cool: BP

Gunslinger
01-06-2013, 08:30 PM
I'm not sure there's any hatred for GM here as much as disagreement and disillusionment with the mixing of a restructuring of GM (and Chrysler) with politics for political purposes. I say that knowing full well that there's politics in most everything today, but this rose to a new level of political mendacity and duplicity.

if GM and Chrysler had gone through a normal and legal bankruptcy protection proceeding, the chances of an actual liquidation would have been extremely small to say the least. The creditors would have been prioritized, the real owners...the shareholders and bond holders...would have been protected, personnel pay and benefit scales could have been adjusted to make the companies more competitive in the marketplace, etc.

As it was, the entire legal process was gamed for political purposes, a foreign company (Fiat) was strong armed to take on an American company, corporate ownership was transferred in an extralegal fashion for again...political purposes. GM's problems were a long time coming. Its management knuckling under to political pressure and opportunism is what upsets people.

We all vote with our dollars. If some choose to buy a GM product or another make, that's their choice.

Dick Steinkamp
01-06-2013, 09:22 PM
Mr. Steinkamp - think you might be getting into some territory that says alot about our world today.

There is a radio program on Sunday mornings that the female commentator was talking about what you have pointed at in your posts. Her show is about religion, focuses a lot on Christianity (because that is the majority of the audience) but it also looks at many of the world's major religions. A few weeks back she was saying how hard it has become to find people to come on the show. She says that while they want to talk about their viewpoint on some topic, many of them do not want to hear another side of the argument because those people "are wrong, and their view is not worthy of hearing."

Just because someone feels different about something does not mean they need to be "converted" or ignored because it does not line up with your way of thinking. We should rejoice in the fact that everyone is not the same.

Exactly!

It's getting harder for folks to stay with the SDC forum "show" for this reason (IMHO). Not all folks think the same...especially about politics, religion, or other hot button topics. When strong opinions are expressed here on those subjects, then reinforced by other similar thinking posters, a culture not very welcoming to other opinions is established. Those with different opinions find other outlets where attempts aren't made to constantly "convert" them.

As you say, we SHOULD rejoice in the fact that everyone is not the same...and I'd add that we should honor those differences in our conversations here on the forum.

BobPalma
01-06-2013, 09:36 PM
I'm not sure there's any hatred for GM here as much as disagreement and disillusionment with the mixing of a restructuring of GM (and Chrysler) with politics for political purposes.

BINGO, Bruce; thanks for that accurate clarification; disagreement and disillusionment about Chevrolet marketing decisions vis-a-vis Marc Heitz Chevrolet is the topic de jour, period. :!:

Nobody talked about hating GM or Chevrolet or anything else until those who thought they could score points against presentations not to their liking, threw that inflammatory word into the discussion. Uncalled-for, unfair, and intellectually dishonest. :mad:

(Geeze, if JDP and I could remain civil through our disagreements in Posts #13 and #16, what's the problem? If we aren't anything else, we're sterling examples of opposite ends of any political / social / cultural continuum!) :rolleyes: BP

Gunslinger
01-06-2013, 09:40 PM
I'm not at all certain I deserve those props, but I'll take my bows! :!!:

t walgamuth
01-06-2013, 10:16 PM
Bailing out GM and Chrysler had to be done....politically speaking. If the president had been McCain he would have done it the same as Obama did. If so then the D's no doubt would have criticized him for it.

That is partisan politics. Fixing the economy should be a non partisan issue but with politicians, everything is political....(pretty much).

Gunslinger
01-06-2013, 10:32 PM
There's fixing the economy and "fixing" the economy. Neither party has clean hands in how it happened. The problem is now that the economy is being "fixed" and not being allowed to repair itself which it would with less government "doctoring".

Jackson
01-08-2013, 08:31 AM
I am a "Government Moters" hater, I presently own four GM vehicles all aquired before the bailout. I will not buy anything "Government Motors" produced after the bailout and I could not care less about anyone's opinion.

Bill Pressler
01-08-2013, 08:36 AM
I am a "Government Moters" hater, I presently own four GM vehicles all aquired before the bailout. I will not buy anything "Government Motors" produced after the bailout and I could not care less about anyones opinion.

Well, case closed, I guess! ;)

Son O Lark
01-08-2013, 10:34 AM
There's fixing the economy and "fixing" the economy. Neither party has clean hands in how it happened. The problem is now that the economy is being "fixed" and not being allowed to repair itself which it would with less government "doctoring". How true, how true.

BobPalma
01-11-2013, 09:03 AM
Automotive News provides a good closure to this topic. (Indeed, I should have read their December 31, 2012 edition before opening the topic, and would thus have appropriate support for my original premise.)

That final 2012 edition of Automotive News contains their choices for various "Top Ten" news stories of the year in the automotive industry: Top 10 Stories, Top 10 People, Top Ten Events, and such.

One of those is what the editors considered the Top Ten Blunders of 2012. Of everything going on in the industry world-wide in 2012, they considered Chevolet's handling of Marc Heitz' dealership to be one of the Top Ten Blunders, as reported here in its entirety (no editng on my part):

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss155/BobPalma/an2012blunders_zpscee0775e.jpg

*******************************************************************

They did not place an order as to which blunder they considered #1, #2, etc. Rather, they just listed the blunders with small photos, if appropriatre, scattered on The Top Ten Blunders page.

For those interested, here are the other nine blunders. I emphasize: This is only the order in which they appeared on the page; Automotive News did NOT say any one blunder was worse than any other:

1. Bogus Mileage Ratings at Hyundai and Kia
2. Fisker Project Stalls
3. Ford Quality suffers in survey (this due to complaints about MyFordTouch information systems)
4. Mitsubishi i-MiEV's misery (poor sales)
5. Lofty Leaf Projections fall to earth (Nissan Leaf sales)
6. Electric Battery Makers crash and burn
7. Romney's Claim Backfires (Where Romney said Chrysler was moving Wrangler production to China when, in fact, they were only opening an additional assembly plant in China and had no plans to shutter Toledo Assemby.)
8. TrueCar gets Sideways with Franchise Laws
9. Sayonara, Suzuki (Suzuki leaving the U.S. passenger car market.)
10. (and, of course, the Marc Heitz / Chevrolet discussion here.)

'Nuff said: Automotive News Editors and Writers know a lot more about the industry than all of us on this forum put together, and if they say Chevrolet's treating of Marc Heitz was so inadvisable as to be one of The Top Ten Blunders of 2012, I rest my case. :cool: BP

JBOYLE
01-11-2013, 09:37 AM
'Nuff said: Automotive News Editors and Writers know a lot more about the industry than all of us on this forum put together, and if they say Chevrolet's treating of Marc Heitz was so inadvisable as to be one of The Top Ten Blunders of 2012, I rest my case. :cool: BP


Agreed, I'd hope they know their stuff and know it's not just a cover for a dealership sale as alledged by some here.

But, there will be some GM and (big) gorvernment lovers who will still say we're being mean. :)

showbizkid
01-11-2013, 10:43 AM
Last three posts deleted. No more politics in this thread please.

jclary
01-11-2013, 11:01 AM
Last three posts deleted. No more politics in this thread please.

As "Chief CAT HERDER" i really support your efforts and hope I am not pouring gas on the fire. If so, you can delete this post with my support. :)

That said...by accepting the Government (political) safety net...GM has linked itself to politics for a long time to come. "NETS" can be a tool for security, rescue, and safety. However, they can equally be a source of entrapment, entanglement, and danger. As time heals all wounds...this association will take a long time to fade...fair or not.:(

Good products, effective marketing, with a profitable bottom line, will speed up the healing of a tainted image.:);):)

Dick Steinkamp
01-11-2013, 01:46 PM
As "Chief CAT HERDER" i really support your efforts and hope I am not pouring gas on the fire. If so, you can delete this post with my support. :)

That said...by accepting the Government (political) safety net...GM has linked itself to politics for a long time to come. "NETS" can be a tool for security, rescue, and safety. However, they can equally be a source of entrapment, entanglement, and danger. As time heals all wounds...this association will take a long time to fade...fair or not.:(

Good products, effective marketing, with a profitable bottom line, will speed up the healing of a tainted image.:);):)

Very good points, John. I agree.

Since it is clearly a political topic, why is it allowed on the forum? (to say nothing about posts using terms like "big government lovers")

I understand we are pretty much a politically conservative group. But we really need to at least look like we have a bigger tent if we want to attract new members.

t walgamuth
01-11-2013, 03:52 PM
Oh we're not all conservative. I don't mind disagreeing with someone politiclaly, some of my best friends just lose all resemblence of rational thought when it comes to politics!;)

JBOYLE
01-11-2013, 03:56 PM
Since it is clearly a political topic, why is it allowed on the forum? But we really need to at least look like we have a bigger tent if we want to attract new members.

I'd suggest it's a car topic. The fact that GM forced a successful dealer to sell out is a car topic, not politics.
And I agree about your second statement...but you are the one that started the offensive (to me) name calling/labeling. :)

Welcome
01-11-2013, 04:28 PM
There is something "VERY FISHY" about this entire scenario!!!:rolleyes:


And the 40+ Posts here and NO mention of a …UNION …as yet!!!

How could a poor helpless corporation like GENERAL MOTORS mess up this bad without there being some UNION at fault??? Perhaps 'BASS PRO SHOPS' are NON-UNION and the UAW 'forced' GM TOP MANAGEMENT into doing this dastardly deed to poor Mr. Heitz?!?!;):D

8E45E
01-11-2013, 05:57 PM
Since it is clearly a political topic, why is it allowed on the forum? (to say nothing about posts using terms like "big government lovers")

If anyone questions WHY I would never volunteer to be a Forum Administrator, this thread is an excellent example.

The subject here has always remained 'on topic' with everyone offering a speculation on the events that lead to the termination of what was a top-performing GM franchisee. Naturally, the villain from what we here can see is the huge, multi-national corporate conglomerate which stumbled from its lofty once-untouchable lofty position, and resulted in government intervention to eliminate a potential economic castrpohe. Because of the turn of events that made politics in certain threads such as this is the unavoidable, I would leave this thread untouched if it were up to me.

Craig