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ddub
12-28-2012, 11:24 PM
I am reading "The man who Fllew the Memphis Belle" by Robert Morgan. On page 111 of this version he says to his crew chief "If it's the last thing in the world you do for me, don't put a Studebaker engine on my plane." He says the plane went through 9 engines in its 25 missions. I was hoping for a more favorable opinion.

StudeDave57
12-28-2012, 11:59 PM
I wonder how many of those engine changes were due to flak or errors on the part of the pilot/crew?

rockne10
12-29-2012, 12:03 AM
I can't recall which of the remaining Fortresses I saw last but, three of her four engines carried Studebaker serial tags. Talk about oil marking its territory!

StudeDave57
12-29-2012, 12:05 AM
Talk about oil marking its territory!

Most BIG round engines do that. If they don't- they're empty!!!

brian6373
12-29-2012, 12:08 AM
My ex-gilfriend's father flew B-17's, He told me that the Studebaker engines were better than the Curtis-Wright built engines and he preferd the Studebakers on his plane.

Chris_Dresbach
12-29-2012, 12:26 AM
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/scan0002-6-3.jpg

HAWK64
12-29-2012, 12:49 AM
Of those 9 assy line workers in the photo not one is captured by the camera lens wearing one of those Studebaker Aviation Division indentity badges with photo. I guess the angle of the photo limits the chances of one being shown on their chest. Those badges are so hard to find these days for memorabilia collectors plus the expense.

Chris_Dresbach
12-29-2012, 01:41 AM
Of those 9 assy line workers in the photo not one is captured by the camera lens wearing one of those Studebaker Aviation Division indentity badges with photo. I guess the angle of the photo limits the chances of one being shown on their chest. Those badges are so hard to find these days for memorabilia collectors plus the expense.

Isn't that the truth. I've only ever seen two, maybe three Studebaker Aviation badges. Extremely hard to find. Rarer yet, but I have seen a few, are gloves, coveralls, and aprons that some of the assembly workers would have worn. The gloves should not be confused with the ones that say "Studebaker Jet 99" on the front. I have several of them and originally I thought they were Aviation, they're not. One of the guys back as SASCO had a real pair of Studebaker Aviation Div. gloves and that's the only pair I've ever seen.
I've often thought of having a pair of coveralls embroidered with "Studebaker Aviation Div." on the back and using them at work since I work in that plant.

63 R2 Hawk
12-29-2012, 02:13 AM
I remember talking to Tom Newton (Tom was a member of our SDC and also a flight engineer on B-17s in WWII who passed away in July) about Studebaker made R-1820s and he indicated they were the preferred manufacturer. I think all the early versions were problematic regardless of manufacturer, it was essentially the first "mass produced" radial engine. Studebaker assembled them from parts provided by Wright.

Chris_Dresbach
12-29-2012, 01:39 PM
I think a lot of parts were supplied to Studebaker by Curtiss Wright, but not all. I believe that just about everything that needed to be machined or finished machine work was done by Studebaker; however I'm not sure if rough castings were done by Studebaker or CW. When the Chippewa Plant was built the entire basement was intended to be just a giant machine shop while the upper level was the assembly floor. The factory movie "Answer to the Axis" shows all this stuff in detail.

SN-60
12-29-2012, 02:30 PM
We looked over the B-17 "Nine-O-Nine" a few years ago when it, along with a B-24, landed at Norwood Airport in Norwood, Massachusetts. On the B-17, three of the four engines had 'Studebaker Corp' serial tags,
complete with 'Wheel' emblem and all, on the bottom of the engine cases.

Gary1953
12-29-2012, 04:25 PM
I can tell you for sure that the four engines being restored for the Memphis Bell when it was in Millington, TN were Studebaker engines.
The Memphis Bell has been moved to Ohio so I don't know if the same four engines are used or not.

That book is a very good read. I read it several years ago and Robert Morgan died a few months later.

Gunslinger
12-29-2012, 04:50 PM
I met Morgan some years back at an air show...I'm a member of the Commemorative Air Force (Confederate Air Force as it was called then)...our wing ran an annual show. He was an honored guest. He was a real gentleman but one could tell there was steel under the surface. I never asked him about the Studebaker engine thing but I never knew about it then.

HAWK64
12-29-2012, 06:48 PM
We looked over the B-17 "Nine-O-Nine" a few years ago when it, along with a B-24, landed at Norwood Airport in Norwood, Massachusetts. On the B-17, three of the four engines had 'Studebaker Corp' serial tags,
complete with 'Wheel' emblem and all, on the bottom of the engine cases.

Its interesting that the famous Studebaker Wheel emblem was brought back by Studebaker in the forties for those B17 engine plates after that design was replaced by the iconic red ball design during the thirties. I have a good example of that engine plate in my memorabilia collection.

StudeDave57
12-29-2012, 07:06 PM
Number one~
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w143/StudeDave/birds/IMG_1618.jpg

Number four~
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w143/StudeDave/birds/IMG_1624.jpg

as seen on this pretty lady~

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w143/StudeDave/birds/IMG_1604.jpg


this past Summer.

Mark L
12-29-2012, 07:20 PM
I saw "Sentimental Journey" at Indianapolis - Eagle Creek airport about 20 years ago, and it had a couple of Studebaker-made engines then.

JBOYLE
12-29-2012, 08:11 PM
Likewise the EAA's "Aluminum overcast". Two or Three stude engines last time I saw it.

With all due respect to Col. Morgan...he may have just been playing the snob.
If you didn't have a Studebaker car, I could see how one might be prejudiced against the Stude-made engines based on the name alone.
After all...if your life depended on the engines....would you rather have them made by a famous aircraft motor company (the outfit that made Lindbergh's Wright J-5) or a small (compared to Ford, GM and Chrysler) car company?

Let's play make-belive for a minute...if I was a B-1B pilot and had the choice of 4 jets made by either GE (the designer) or Chevy...I'd go with GE. I'm not a Chevy fan. :)

Welcome
12-29-2012, 08:39 PM
I think a lot of parts were supplied to Studebaker by Curtiss Wright, but not all. I believe that just about everything that needed to be machined or finished machine work was done by Studebaker; however I'm not sure if rough castings were done by Studebaker or CW. When the Chippewa Plant was built the entire basement was intended to be just a giant machine shop while the upper level was the assembly floor. The factory movie "Answer to the Axis" shows all this stuff in detail.

What 'entire basement'???:D

I worked in that former Studebaker Aviation Plant for nearly 20 years and explored pretty much every inch of it. The only what could be called a 'basement' is under the Test Cells on the north end. However, AM General did use that 'basement' to weld together and then machine control arms for the M151 "Jeeps" we were building throughout the 70's.

Chris_Dresbach
12-29-2012, 08:47 PM
What 'entire basement'???:D

I worked in that former Studebaker Aviation Plant for nearly 20 years and explored pretty much every inch of it. The only what could be called a 'basement' is under the Test Cells on the north end. However, AM General did use that 'basement' to weld together and then machine control arms for the M151 "Jeeps" we were building throughout the 70's.

Well, yeah. I know the plant does not have a "complete" basement but for what it was in Studebaker's time, it was a machine shop. Nothing goes on down there now. The loading docks are still there but the outside access stair wells have been filled in with gravel. The other access points in the test cell hall are still there.

Jim, was there a tunnel there at one time that connected the basement/aviation to plant 8?

SN-60
12-29-2012, 08:54 PM
I wonder how many of those engine changes were due to flak or errors on the part of the pilot/crew?

I'm sure the only 'changes' the pilot and crew made concerned their underwear!!!!

Welcome
12-29-2012, 09:08 PM
>>>Jim, was there a tunnel there at one time that connected the basement/aviation to plant 8?

Yes there was.

That tunnel ran the 200 or so yards from the far northeast corner of the Aviation Plant to the southwest corner of Plant 8. It was similar in size to those you'll find under the Aviation Plant and like those tunnels; its purpose was to run steam pipes, electrical cables, etc.

Deaf Mute
12-29-2012, 09:35 PM
The B-17 at Boeing Field in Seattle has at least one Studebaker radial in it. The one at the museum between Omaha and Lincoln does not.

StudeDave57
12-29-2012, 09:40 PM
I'm sure the only 'changes' the pilot and crew made concerned their underwear!!!!

My comment went so far over your head- I think it may have set an altitude record!!!! :ohmy: :lol:

The point I was trying to make is this--
I wanna know how many engines were changed due to damage by the crew or flak. A number that high may very well have been because of stuff other then the engines themselves. Anyone who has ever maintained an aircraft would know that there are many many reasons to change an engine. They'd also know that in most cases- the pilots and crew don't do the maintenance and as such don't usually treat their aircraft very well. They aren't the ones who have to fix them if they break.
Nor would the folks shooting at the BIG BAD B-17s...

but that is a completly different topic for another day and Forum. ;)




StudeDave '57 :cool:

SN-60
12-29-2012, 09:46 PM
To: Stude Dave,-----COME ON WILL YOU??? That was a JOKE Dave. Can You say J-O-K-E?????? Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzz!!

StudeDave57
12-29-2012, 09:50 PM
The B-17 at Boeing Field in Seattle has at least one Studebaker radial in it.
I'll have to get down there before that one rots away... :mad:

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46191&hilit=seattle+mof



StudeDave '57 :cool:

StudeDave57
12-29-2012, 09:54 PM
To: Stude Dave,-----COME ON WILL YOU??? That was a JOKE Dave. Can You say J-O-K-E?????? Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzz!!

There are a few things I rarely joke about- one of them is aviation maintenance. ;)

I was not joking- I was asking a serious question.





StudeDave '57 :cool:

SN-60
12-29-2012, 10:01 PM
To: StudeDave57,--- Oh!..I get it now....You probably work/worked for Boeing......A relative of Mine works for them now....He helped design the new 'composite' wing for the new 777 (?) airplane.

StudeDave57
12-29-2012, 10:16 PM
To: StudeDave57,--- Oh!..I get it now....You probably work/worked for Boeing......

Nope- Dad worked for the 'Lazy B' not me. yet. ;)
However I did spend 20 years in the NAVY.
About 19 of those years saw me being the guy fixing broke birds...




StudeDave '57 :cool:

SN-60
12-29-2012, 10:28 PM
To: StudeDave57,------I complement You for Your Military Service!!

studeski
01-03-2013, 04:08 PM
Likewise the EAA's "Aluminum overcast". Two or Three stude engines last time I saw it.

With all due respect to Col. Morgan...he may have just been playing the snob.
If you didn't have a Studebaker car, I could see how one might be prejudiced against the Stude-made engines based on the name alone.
After all...if your life depended on the engines....would you rather have them made by a famous aircraft motor company (the outfit that made Lindbergh's Wright J-5) or a small (compared to Ford, GM and Chrysler) car company?

Let's play make-belive for a minute...if I was a B-1B pilot and had the choice of 4 jets made by either GE (the designer) or Chevy...I'd go with GE. I'm not a Chevy fan. :)

I was gonna chime in on this a while back but forgot. I flew on the Aluminum Overcast in 2001, but, sad to say, it is no more.

http://www.standard.net/topics/plane-crash/2011/06/13/wwii-bomber-crashes-illinois

studeski
01-03-2013, 04:21 PM
Whoops! Wrong article. http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=242087

JBOYLE
01-03-2013, 04:52 PM
Studeski...

It was the Liberty Belle that was destroyed. The Aluminum Overcast is alive and well and living in Oshkosh.


And if you'll allow me to make a recommendation for all B-17 fans out there,
your need to buy The Final Cut, a history of all the surviving B-17s. If you've ever flown on a B-17 (in recent years), it's in there.
http://www.aerovintage.com/final.htm

The Fourth Edition even has photos taken by myself of B-17s when they were still in use as fire bombers in the late 1970s.

Here's a breakdown of surviving Flying Fortresses....
http://www.aerovintage.com/b17loc.htm

63 R2 Hawk
01-03-2013, 07:11 PM
I've spent over three hours flying in the Collings Foundation's "909". Highly recommended if you like vintage machinery. Flying in the plexiglass nose is a thrill and taking pics out of the dorsal hatch makes for some amazing photography, just make sure you have a strong leash on your camera! Here's a photo of a Wright R-1820 at the Dayton Ohio Air Force Air Museum: (IIRC, it is a Studebaker, but I can't quite see the tag)

19968

Bish
01-03-2013, 07:34 PM
During WWII, My Dad flew on B24s (PB4Y1) in the Pacific for the US Navy. He took photographs of Japanese positions, manned the 50 cal. on the side (he was too tall for the ball turret), and maintained the aircraft (AMM2). So he and his crew did indeed fix their own plane.
Bish

scott.rodgers
01-03-2013, 07:50 PM
There is a B-17 undergoing restoration at the air museum in Palm Springs, California (it's almost done). All four engines and the spare are Studebakers! Sorry, I don't remember what it's name was.

studeski
01-04-2013, 08:05 AM
Studeski...

It was the Liberty Belle that was destroyed. The Aluminum Overcast is alive and well and living in Oshkosh.


And if you'll allow me to make a recommendation for all B-17 fans out there,
your need to buy The Final Cut, a history of all the surviving B-17s. If you've ever flown on a B-17 (in recent years), it's in there.
http://www.aerovintage.com/final.htm

The Fourth Edition even has photos taken by myself of B-17s when they were still in use as fire bombers in the late 1970s.

Here's a breakdown of surviving Flying Fortresses....
http://www.aerovintage.com/b17loc.htm

Scott,
Thanks. That's only an hour away!

JBOYLE
01-04-2013, 09:24 AM
There is a B-17 undergoing restoration at the air museum in Palm Springs, California (it's almost done). All four engines and the spare are Studebakers! Sorry, I don't remember what it's name was.


Miss Angela

JBOYLE
01-04-2013, 09:44 AM
During WWII, My Dad flew on B24s (PB4Y1) in the Pacific for the US Navy. He took photographs of Japanese positions, manned the 50 cal. on the side (he was too tall for the ball turret), and maintained the aircraft (AMM2). So he and his crew did indeed fix their own plane.
Bish


That was not the case in the USAAF and the Eighth Air Force.
There was a non-flying Crew Chief who was responsible for the aircraft (with a few helpers), for specialized work, there were specialists on the base that would work on particular systems. The crew chief would have overseen engine swaps, but I really doubt if 8th AF flight crews did much of the "dirty work"...but the gunners did have to clean and maintain their weapons.

What I don't know is how much engine work would have been done on the base. There were specialized depots for heavy engine maintenance and overhauls. I believe work at the base may have been limited to replacing cylinders, superchargers and carb work.

I've read a WWII biography of a B-17* co-pilot where he discusses al the work to change and break-in a new engine. There was a lot to it...each engine had to be carefully "broken in".

*the excellent Serenade to the Big Bird, by Bert Stiles. Bert was a college student and published author when he joined the USAAF. After completing a tour in B-17s he volunteered to remain in combat and fly P-51 Mustangs. He was killed on Nov, 26 1944 while shooting down a german fighter. He was just 24 years old. His book was published in 1947 to wide acclaim. If you go to the National Museum of the US Air Force at Wright Patterson,AFB, Ohio and look at their B-17, Shoo, Shoo Baby, please remember him. He flew as co-pilot in that aircraft for a couple of combat missions.

Steve T
01-04-2013, 01:55 PM
As John says, the Fort that was burnt-out after a forced landing was Don Brooks' "Liberty Belle"; Mr Brooks also has the very substantial wreck of a second B-17, recovered from Dyke Lake in Labrador a few years ago, and not long ago it was announced that the Liberty group intends to rebuild not just the Dyke Lake Fort but also "Liberty Belle" herself (using a replacement fuselage).

The EAA's "Aluminum Overcast" also suffered a mishap a few years back, her place in EAA's touring program being taken by Gen. William Lyons' Fort "Fuddy Duddy" that once belonged to the National Warplane Museum at Geneseo NY. Both those Forts are now flying again.

S.