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Swifster
12-23-2012, 10:35 AM
I have a 64 6 cylinder Commander. My understanding is the 6 cylinders used a lighter duty frame than the V8. As I'm planning on running 400HP thru the drive train, should I source a V8 frame?

thunderations
12-23-2012, 10:44 AM
I don't believe there is any difference in a 6 cyl frame and a V8. I had heard at one time that convertible frames were a thicker gauge material too, but think of the production problems from having several different frames to chose from and the building of them.

LarkTruck
12-23-2012, 10:55 AM
I don't believe there is any difference in a 6 cyl frame and a V8. I had heard at one time that convertible frames were a thicker gauge material too, but think of the production problems from having several different frames to chose from and the building of them.

Oh there is a difference, Stude passenger car frames ranged from 14 to 11 gage, with the heavier frames being used on V-8 cars and 6 cyl station wagons and convertibles as well.
Jim

52hawk
12-23-2012, 11:00 AM
There was a thread here about different thicknesses-seamed factual as someone did the research. I don't remember the details though. Swifster,have you tried to do a search?

LarkTruck
12-23-2012, 11:15 AM
There was a thread here about different thicknesses-seamed factual as someone did the research. I don't remember the details though. Swifster,have you tried to do a search?

If you happen to have a shop manual, the gages are also listed there by model.
Jim

SN-60
12-23-2012, 11:32 AM
There was a rumor that mid seventies Avantis were assembled using the last of the original Stude frames which had been in storage outside for years at that point, and were mainly 6cyl versions
with the X-member added.

sweetolbob
12-23-2012, 11:53 AM
Tom

With 11 ga = 0.1196 and 14 ga = 0.0747 nominal it wouldn't be difficult to measure the thickness at a hole in the frame. My mid-70's 1974 Avanti has a 11 ga frame not 14 as I've added a fair amount of 1/8" plate and repair to the frame and it is a good match in thickness to the 11 ga.

As a thought though, before changing out the frame, look into stiffing it like the Avanti as that member is capable of supporting the Mackinac Bridge I think. There have been some posts on the forum about strengthening the frame with steel tubing as well as examples available of Morrison and other chassis available on the web to illustrate how they did the reinforcing.

Also remember that the Stude frame stiffness depends on the body being part of the structure so steel shims/conveyor belt rubber body mounts bolted down well will also help.

Good luck with the 400 HP setup, it hard to have too much go.;)

Bob

Roscomacaw
12-23-2012, 02:33 PM
There are differences. I used to doubt that until I took some vernier calipers into a wrecking yard that had 30-some Studes in it (sadly, long gone now). My measurements and comparisons dismissed my doubts. The parts books do not reflect these different gage frames, but that's cause it was simply easier to only stock ONE frame for ALL applications of a given body style. Naturally, the heavier gage frames were the ones stocked for replacement. I've wondered just how many replacement frames there was ever call for. Convertibles - whether 6 or V8 - used the same frame since as much stiffness as was possible was required for droptop bodies.

thunderations
12-23-2012, 03:16 PM
I stand corrected, Thanks guys. It's nice to learn something new. I'd heard that convertible frames were heavier, but thought the torque boxes made all the difference. Live and learn, forget and learn it again.
I don't believe there is any difference in a 6 cyl frame and a V8. I had heard at one time that convertible frames were a thicker gauge material too, but think of the production problems from having several different frames to chose from and the building of them.

LarkTruck
12-23-2012, 03:17 PM
There was a rumor that mid seventies Avantis were assembled using the last of the original Stude frames which had been in storage outside for years at that point, and were mainly 6cyl versions
with the X-member added.

I had a 70's era Avanti II in my shop years ago for a collision repair, and it had a cut down station wagon frame under it. So, yes, there was a time the Altman's were using up old inventory.
Jim

R3 challenger
12-23-2012, 03:55 PM
The commonly used original 1959-1964 Chassis Parts Catalog is dated September, 1963, on the first page inside the cover. But at the bottom of the page listing frame assemblies (p. 426), it says "Revised 3-64". Not all the information on that page agrees with the information about frames in original period shop manuals, probably because of consolidation and simplification of the parts supply as time went on. The frame information about '64 models in the original 1959-64 Shop Manual shows that 64S-F models (six cylinder/2-door sedans) had the lightest frames: 14 gauge. All others had heavier gauge frames (11 or 13), according to the shop manual.

George

Bill Pressler
12-23-2012, 04:13 PM
The commonly used original 1959-1964 Chassis Parts Catalog is dated September, 1963, on the first page inside the cover. But at the bottom of the page listing frame assemblies (p. 426), it says "Revised 3-64". Not all the information on that page agrees with the information about frames in original period shop manuals, probably because of consolidation and simplification of the parts supply as time went on. The frame information about '64 models in the original 1959-64 Shop Manual shows that 64S-F models (six cylinder/2-door sedans) had the lightest frames: 14 gauge. All others had heavier gauge frames (11 or 13), according to the shop manual.

George


The '65-66 Shop Supplement shows 13 gauge frames in all two-door sedans, six or eight, for '65 and '66. My '66 had had the frame around the spring pockets welded during restoration and was beginning to crack on one side again, about 11K miles later.

Someone had posted previously (I think) that the Shop Manual shows 13 gauge frames for '60-62 wagons.

StudeRich
12-23-2012, 04:20 PM
The '62-'64 Four Door Sedans, 2 and 4 Door Wagons, Wagonaires, Hardtops and Convertibles 6 or 8's got 11 Ga. frames.

The 2 Door Sedans being the lightest Models got the lightest frames, some years 13 and some years 14, on 6 Cyl. pretty much what George said.

Even Hawks got increased in '62 to 11 Ga. All Avanti Powered "F" body 2 Dr.'s were SUPPOSED to get 11 Ga. frames like the H.D. Sedans, Police and Taxis.

rockinhawk
12-23-2012, 05:05 PM
If they used up all the left over frames in the 70s, What's under my 81? Did they build new Lark frames?

SN-60
12-23-2012, 06:35 PM
Well, I believe by at least '82 Avanti Motors was fabricating complete frames by hand, utilizing left over Studebaker crossmembers.

Swifster
12-23-2012, 08:05 PM
So it would be beneficial to find a Daytona frame for the Commander. Would any 'J' body frame between 59-64 work, or do I need something closer to '64.

StudeRich
12-23-2012, 08:21 PM
I believe the '62 and '63 Larks have longer frame front ends to accommodate the longer (deeper) front Panels, also the rear body sections got longer in '62 with the enlarged Trunks. I would stick to '62-'64 with a preference for '64 J or L Bodies.

I have a '61 "L" Convertible Frame, but it would take some mods for a '64 and it needs to go to someone on the West Coast because of the distance.

SN-60
12-23-2012, 08:30 PM
To: StudeRich,---If You mean the frame 'horns' (ahead of the front suspension mounting crossmember), pretty sure they are all the same from, say, '53 up.

StudeRich
12-23-2012, 08:36 PM
To: StudeRich,---If You mean the frame 'horns' (ahead of the front suspension mounting crossmember), pretty sure they are all the same from, say, '53 up.

Yes Frame Rails or "Horns". That MIGHT be possible, but there is no way the bumper and Radiator saddle holes will match. Still the '61 to '62 rear frame rails are way different.

studebakersteve
12-23-2012, 09:11 PM
To answer your question,I run an R-3 powershift in a Challenger that was a 6 banger.I wouldn't hesitate to use the lighter frame.It works for me!
Steve

LarkTruck
12-24-2012, 07:07 AM
If they used up all the left over frames in the 70s, What's under my 81? Did they build new Lark frames?

They had a run of new frame rails made sometime in the 70's, The left-overs were sold in the big parts deal that happened in 87. You can still see them for sale at times on ebay by the current owner.
JS

Kurt
12-24-2012, 07:19 AM
A few years ago I put a 62 frame under a 66. The 66 was a 2door sedan. The 62 was a hardtop. The only difference was one mount on the hardtop frame was not used. All the rest were exactly the same, and a perfect fit.

Swifster
12-24-2012, 10:28 AM
Hmmm. I have cowl and hinge pillar rust. Fix the rust before lifting the body? What areas on the frame are susceptible to cracking.