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rknight89
10-06-2012, 04:23 PM
I'm in the process of rebuilding a '61 Lark Convertible with a 259 V-8 automatic. It ran & drove last week for the 1st time since the early 70's. Here's me confusion: The gear indicator shows the shift pattern as P-N-D-L-R(reverse in last position). Owners manual, shop manual & parts manual all agree with this. HOWEVER, when I operate the shift lever(column shift) the transmission shift pattern is P-R-N-D-L (reverse in 2nd position). Can someone tell me what has happened here. The serial # plate on the transmission is missing. I have rebuilt the engine & upon inspection of the trans. I only put new seals in it from a kit I ordered from Studebaker Int. Looking at pictures in the shop manual, it looks like the normal Flight-O-Matic pictured. According to the build sheet for the car (from Richard Quinn), it is a Flight-O-Matic. Lastly the car has what I believe to be 45,000 original miles. It sat untouched from the early 70's until a couple years ago when I started the restoration. I didn't replace the trans & I wouldn't think anyone else should have needed to with only 45k. When I pulled the engine/trans, both were the same color & equally dirty & greasy. Any thoughts as to what I may have here would be appreciated.

raprice
10-06-2012, 06:01 PM
It certainly doesn't seem like it's a '61 Flightomatic trans. The quadrant SHOULD be P-N-D-L-R. My thinking is that the transmission was replaced at some time. Not sure if it's even a Studebaker trans. I'm sure someone will chime in to give you some good info.
Rog

avantilover
10-06-2012, 06:04 PM
Something strange going on here if it's the original Borg-Warner Flightomatic Transmission. Just checked my car (1962) and the pattern is P-N-D-L-R. Perhaps this is a different transmission?

rockinhawk
10-06-2012, 06:33 PM
Is the shift pattern different for a Powershift? I had one in a GT years ago but can't recall. I do remember the shifter was on the floor.

Dick Steinkamp
10-06-2012, 06:43 PM
PowerShift is PRND21

Disconnect the shift lever at the trans and see if you have 6 detents rather than the FOM's 5.

(BTW, externally, an FOM and a PowerShift look virtually identical)

rknight89
10-07-2012, 06:18 AM
If the trans was replaced, it must have been done very early in its life. If it'd not a Studebaker trans, Would all the seals from a kit from Studebaker fit? I'm so confused

rknight89
10-07-2012, 06:21 AM
I will disconnect the linkage & try that, but, I'm pretty sure it's not a power shift because what I can see in the shop manual show a much different looking unit. Still confused.

ROADRACELARK
10-07-2012, 08:42 AM
If it IS in fact a Powershift, it should have fittings in the side of the main case for the oil cooler lines that go to the radiator. Hope this helps.

Dan Miller
Auburn, GA

bsrosell
10-07-2012, 10:53 AM
Dick, I have a similar question after rebuilding the both of my trannys (one WITH a Ford tag) that came with my '57 Golden Hawk, and the correct tranny (w/ oil cooler lines) for the Golden Hawk.; in '57 (pre-Powershift) would the FOM and the Stude version both have 5 detents? Would all FOM Borg-Warner Model-8 units have the same shift pattern (different from 'all' the Stude Borg-Warner Flightomatics?)

To answer Rknight's question partially, when I rebuilt them (someone had replaced mine obviously, but since it was my first tranny rebuild I did BOTH of them simultaneously as an aid, and because it was FUN!) it was obvious that the Borg-Warner FOM and the Stude were identical every visible way. (Except my 'correct' Stude tranny had the oil-cooler for the Golden Hawk, and the wider clutch band for that specific unit; and THAT was unique to the Golden Hawk, other Stude's in '57 didn't have the oil-cooler lines; again, this is pre-Powershift....).

So I have had the same question, of how do I tell what the shift pattern IS on the FOM unit (car was not driveable when I got it). Sounds like the FOM is what you've got (my guess) and my FOM will also have the wrong shift pattern for a Stude, BUT, seals, bushings, disks, clutches, etc.. were identical so no worries there.
Again, I'm speaking of a '57 short-tail Borg-Warner, which in 58 went to the long-tail, but not sure much else changed internally. I'm also interested in others replies.
I have have oodles of picture of both units (Stude and FOM) torn apart, component by component), but I think that shift pattern is determined by the porting inside the valve chamber, which is hard to compare by looking at for a novice like me... even though externaly they LOOK identical (and some parts have same ID #)

PowerShift is PRND21

Disconnect the shift lever at the trans and see if you have 6 detents rather than the FOM's 5.

(BTW, externally, an FOM and a PowerShift look virtually identical)

studegary
10-07-2012, 10:57 AM
I think that you have a Ford-O-Matic. Everything that you say indictes a Ford transmission to me. They look alike and use a lot of common parts because they are basically the same unit. It is an easy exchange to make, except for the shift indicator. Probably someone just drove it that way knowing what was what and didn't bother to change the indicator. I have owned and known of Studebakers where this was done. On my own, the shift indicator on the steering column was changed to a Ford/Mercury unit. It was noticeable because it was chrome rather than painted.

kurtruk
10-07-2012, 05:09 PM
Be careful saying you got a build sheet from Richard Quinn. He provides a created dealer window sticker. He will put on them whatever you request (as long as it was available for your model). IF he used your Production Record from South Bend to create it, then it says what your car WAS equipped with originally.

Your car could have had it's transmission replaced at any time in it's "previous life." A couple years on the road is all it takes to make everything equally greasy, especially the way SOME engines leak.

rknight89
10-07-2012, 05:39 PM
I gave Mr. Quinn my VIN # and what he sent was based on that. I ASSUME the old build sheet was produced from old records, since that was all he had to rely on.

rknight89
10-07-2012, 05:40 PM
No oil cooler lines or fittings....nice try...still confused

Dick Steinkamp
10-07-2012, 07:09 PM
it was obvious that the Borg-Warner FOM and the Stude were identical every visible way.


Sorry about the confusion. When I said "FOM", I meant "Flight-O-Matic"....not "Ford-O-Matic". Both were made by Borg Warner and I think were essentially identical. The Ford-O-Matic did have the more normal PRNDL shift pattern, however. I would also think the Ford-O-Matic would have a different length input shaft and/or input shaft spline, but I could be wrong.

rockinhawk
10-07-2012, 08:37 PM
Maybe someone installed a Ford valve body... Is that possable?

Dwain G.
10-07-2012, 11:29 PM
In 'D' position how many upshifts occur in normal driving? Just one, I would say it's a FordO or a FlightO with a FordO valve body. If two upshifts, it may be an FMX conversion previous owner had done.

rknight89
10-08-2012, 07:34 AM
Only shifts once. So, it must be a Ford O Matic or a Flight O Matic with Ford innards. Seems to work fine, so, I guess my next question is; Can I get a P-R-N-D-L that will fit the frame on the steering column where I have a P-N-D-L-R? If so, where? Falcon, Comet, Fairlane???? Maybe there's a Ford guy out there with a Flight O Matic in his Falcon?!?!

StudeDave57
10-08-2012, 11:45 AM
I guess my next question is; Can I get a P-R-N-D-L that will fit the frame on the steering column where I have a P-N-D-L-R? If so, where?
I don't recall the exact year/model, but there was a Jeep product that has practically the same selector as the Stude, but with the different pattern. I think it was a late '60s Wagoneer?

rknight89
10-09-2012, 07:08 PM
Thanks for the info! I'll check into the Jeep PRNDL.

Johnnywiffer
10-10-2012, 07:24 PM
The original '51 Ford-O-Matic was a 3 speed, and like Studebaker Automatic Drive, it started in 2nd. Later, I think around '60, there was a cheaper 2-speed. It was also called Ford-O-Matic and the original Ford-O-Matic because Cruise-O-Matic but started in 1st gear. Confused yet? They all had the same PRNDL shift pattern but it's important to differentiate between the early and late Ford-O-Matic because they ain't the same beast.

So while it's possible that the valve body from a 3-speed Ford-O-Matic version MIGHT have been substituted for the Studebaker valve body, a 2-speed valve body could not have been.

John

Warren Webb
10-10-2012, 07:54 PM
I don't recall the exact year/model, but there was a Jeep product that has practically the same selector as the Stude, but with the different pattern. I think it was a late '60s Wagoneer?

I believe your right there Dave. As a matter of fact I remember that Jeep used not only the same chrome selector bezel but it had the PRNDSL that many could use when replacing with a modern overdrive tranny.

I have tried on different times to see if any Jeep vendors have the lens with that shift pattern on it but havent found one yet.

Doug M
10-10-2012, 11:07 PM
I just looked on ebay the 64 chevy indecator looks close I need one too Iam putting a 4L60E and a 4.3 V6 in My 66 Commander Doug M

ROADRACELARK
10-11-2012, 10:04 AM
The International Travelall and Scout of that same era, may very well have the same PRNDL you're looking for. Hope this helps.

Dan Miller
Auburn, GA

pgothard
10-11-2012, 02:46 PM
FWIW - I have a very good transmission guy who has taken a couple of my Stude transmissions and has done the FMX conversion mentioned above. It's an easy conversion which keeps the Stude input shaft and tail. Overall length changes not at all. It is fundamentally the same trans. However, the FMX conversion includes fittings for external cooler AND a vacuum modulator. Shift pattern IS PRNDL and it starts out in first gear. However, the Stude column shift linkage will not allow me to select forward gears except for "D". I took an old Stude plastic insert with the letters and buffed them out and added my own "stick-on letters" to change the pattern. It has held up for the past 10 years.

--Paul

rknight89
10-14-2012, 12:53 PM
I think I might go to the local tpophy shop & see if they can cut a piece of clear plastic the correct shape & have them laser etch the correct letters in the correct place. Can't cost too much. RIGHT???

avantilover
10-15-2012, 02:18 AM
You wouldn't think so as they'd likely use a Laser to cut the piece out.