Do I have a sticky governor?

[Eman]

Stella tries to die (and sometimes does die) at stops... even after being completely warmed up. It feels like when she comes to a stop that she doesn't shift back down or maybe if she were a stick, someone wasn't pushing in on the clutch.

Carburetor is fine. Shifting into other gears seems fine. I've adjusted the linkage to the carb and the linkage to the governor below.

A local mechanic who is in the club, said it sounds like I could possibly have a sticky governor. Would driving it around more maybe free it up? Anyone ever heard of this? Any suggestions? Thanks.



[img=left]http://www.bulletshots.net/images/stella3.jpg[/img=left]1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")

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[bige]

If you put the car in nuetral does it do the same thing? If so, I'd say it's something other than the trans. If not then maybe the torque converter has a problem. The converter is the clutch on an automatic, the governor changes fluid pressure as the car is moving I don't think it could cause the symptoms you've described.

Ernie R

uote]Originally posted by Eman

Stella tries to die (and sometimes does die) at stops... even after being completely warmed up. It feels like when she comes to a stop that she doesn't shift back down or maybe if she were a stick, someone wasn't pushing in on the clutch.

Carburetor is fine. Shifting into other gears seems fine. I've adjusted the linkage to the carb and the linkage to the governor below.

A local mechanic who is in the club, said it sounds like I could possibly have a sticky governor. Would driving it around more maybe free it up? Anyone ever heard of this? Any suggestions? Thanks.



[img=left]http://www.bulletshots.net/images/stella3.jpg[/img=left]1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")

https://www.bulletshots.net

https://www.bulletshots.net/blog

https://www.alabamastudes.com

[/quote]

[55studeman]

Sounds more like a tune up issue than a tranny issue, I'd target that area very heavily...since you don't really want to take out a tranny and do work on that. Any auto tranny will put some drag on the engine at idle, that's normal, but cutting out is not. I've found that cutting out at idle is typically due to tunning, start by checking the idle RPM, then timming, after timming you may need to check idle rpm again, then check idle fuel mixture, and then double check idle rpm again -all exactly as per the shop manual.

Please let us know what the answer is to Ernies question -does it die in neutral? It will help us toubleshoot. I would also ask one more, If it doesn't die in neutral, then slip it into drive, does it die then? (warmed up, of course)

Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

[gstine]

Eman - it really depends on what state you live in.

Sorry, everyone, I just couldn't resist!!

Greg
1950 Champion DeLuxe

[Eman]

Thanks for the replies. I'll double check, but I'm pretty sure she doesn't die in Neutral. If it's just sitting, it's really kinda smooth. Accelerating is pretty good too. It's only after I've slowed down to a stop sign or traffic light when it dies... And maybe tried to die after slowing down to take the curve at the top of the hill.



[img=left]http://www.bulletshots.net/images/stella3.jpg[/img=left]1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")

https://www.bulletshots.net

https://www.bulletshots.net/blog

https://www.alabamastudes.com

[bige]

Check points and timing. Even idle adjustment. It would be so rare to have a trans cause your problem.

ErnieR

[55studeman]

I was going to give similar advice as gordr, but was waiting to see what you say about the neurtral to 1st while in sitting still.

As per what gordr says, it's on target. I would also add one more troubleshooting tip that goes along with his #1: bump up the idle rpm above recommendations, put it at 700-850. Then take a drive and see if it dies. If it doesn't die, then it's probably an issue with tuning, something that is getting missed. Often, a problem encountered with tuning that could cause this, is setting the timming wrong by NOT disconnecting the vacuum advance (shop manual clearly states it should be disconnected, but we often miss stuff like that) -so you think that timming is right, when in fact it could be wrong, if this was done.

Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

[gordr]

Could it be the lock-up clutch in the torque convertor sticking?

I'd differentiate between the two stalls as follows:

1. if it's a weak idle issue, the engine simply stops, but the car doesn't jerk or buck. Feed a little gas, and all is well, usually.

2. if the car jerks or bucks, the transmission hasn't adequately disengaged from the driveline; engine is still trying to drive the car, without having enough power available to do so. Think of stopping a standard-shift car without using the clutch, you know what happens.

I'm not sure if the '51 has it, but many later automatic-shift cars had a "dashpot" on the throttle linkage that acts to delay the the final movement of the throttle valve from "fast idle" to "curb idle". This helps prevent stalls in traffic.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

[55studeman]

Weird, I just posted my last response AFTER gordr but it got posted BEFORE his...

gordr, you must be in a special time warp time zone....could you buy some stocks for me, we could make really make some money that way!

Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

[stan zoerner]

how about a sticky or misadjusted float in the carb?

[ROADRACELARK]

Mabe a vacuum leak???[?][?] Very simple and worth a look-see.
Hope this helps,

Dan Miller
Atlanta, GA

[img=left]http://static.flickr.com/57/228744729_7aff5f0118_m.jpg[/img=left]
Road Racers turn left AND right.

[StudeRich]

The part about dying on a curve or stop, got me thinking, when the float level is too high, these carbs have been known to "flood out", spill over the float bowl causing a stall.

quote:Originally posted by Eman

It's only after I've slowed down to a stop sign or traffic light when it dies... And maybe tried to die after slowing down to take the curve at the top of the hill.

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

[Roscomacaw]

As has been mentioned here, this early automatic has a lock-up clutch in the torque convertor.

I have the factory repair manual for this particular tranny. Here's what it says in the troubleshooting section...

Engine shudders or stalls when the car is stopped with the gear selector in the D range:

1: Incorrect adjustment of the accelerator-to-trans control linkage
2: Improper governor valve operation caused by:
a: Damaged governor
b: Governor sticking on shaft
c: Governor valve sticking open because...
1: Governor control detent piston sticking or installed backwards
2: Governor valve sleeve out of position in extension case
3: Accelerator control plunger and linkage binding
4: Blocked governor valve drain passage
5: Damaged main shaft oil seal rings or front ring gear oil seal rings
6: Main shaft lubricator valve assy out of position
7: No groove on end of transfer tube
3: Sticking or damaged direct drive clutch plate
4: Sticking or damaged direct drive clutch piston

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle


1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

[Eman]

I think I may start over by rechecking all of the linkage... From accelerator to the carb, then to the governor. Maybe I missed something. Thanks for all the posts. I'll report back when I get a chance.



[img=left]http://www.bulletshots.net/images/stella3.jpg[/img=left]1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")

https://www.bulletshots.net

https://www.bulletshots.net/blog

https://www.alabamastudes.com

[55studeman]

I thought I should comment on the finger pointing towards the Governor being at fault. In my young but experienced wisdom (having taken apart and rebuilt a few DGs myself), I'll say that the governor sticking AND/OR the direct drive clutch being at fault are unlikely. [u]That governor unit is fairly simple and very robust, lending it to a very long service life</u>. Also, there are several springs that push the centripical mechanism back to normal, as well as springs on the accelerator linkages that pull that part back to normal. There would have to be a very severe problem (low amount and sludgy ATF, or excessively used or heated ATF causing varnish/sludge, or a physical kink or block in the accelerator linkage, which is unlikely although possible).

Engagement of the direct drive clutch (with or without the malfunction of a governor) at low rpm is also unlikely, due to the way the hydraulics pressures and safety systems are designed in the valve block. (Not true if the engine is rev'd to high rpms (3-4,000+ rpm in neutral or park, unfortunately, doing that will engage the direct drive clutch and break stuff inside the tranny...why they didn't build in a bypass for this, I am still wondering about?)

To really accuse these two components, you must look at the history of the car. Was it taken care of, fluid changed properly, brake bands adjusted properly, and was it ever driven excessively hard? How long and how many miles has Eman had the car? Most importantly, did the car (transmission) function properly prior to this issue? Anything happen, done, or seen prior to this problem that was unusual or could contribute to the problem at hand?

The troubleshooting in the manual pointed out by Biggs is quite true and useful, but I have my doubts as to the governor or direct drive clutch being at fault both for reasons stated that I believe to be unlikely AND for you own sake that you don't want to pull and open a tranny unless you really, really must to it and have cleared out all other potential problems. Furthermore, those other components mentioned in the trouble shooting #5,6,7 are also unlikely since said you can accelerate just fine -which also hints at the governor working fine, since it controls UP shifts as well as the down.

So, I'm basically saying the troublshooting shown is not really useful at this point, until you rule out all the easier problems concerning the engine....but do check out the accelerator to tranny linkage, since that is exterior and easy to check.

Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)