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BobPalma
07-09-2012, 10:08 AM
'Ran across these 1964 photographs of cousin George D. Krem (age 22; bow tie) and Yours Truly (age 18). They were snapped by my Uncle, his Father George Krem (no middle name) circa February-May 1964. The location is a school parking lot behind their home in Roselle IL (a western Chicago suburb) on a deserted Sunday Morning.

I had driven my newly "restored" (such as a 16-year old would do it in 1963) 1955 Champion Regal Coupe up from Indianapolis for a visit.

Uncle George had his new (purchased January 29, 1964) 1964 R2/Powershift Super Hawk:

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss155/BobPalma/georgeandbob1.jpg

Cousin George owned the 1957 Silver Hawk in the middle. He had purchased the car used, in Indianapolis, on July 16, 1963, from Snider Auto Service, an authorized Studebaker dealer.

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss155/BobPalma/georgeandbob2.jpg

George did not know it at the time, but the 1957 Silver Hawk had been ordered new by none other than the famous Ted Harbit! Ted had traded the Silver Hawk to Snider Studebaker for one of the few (and since documented as such) 1957 Golden Hawk 400s. The 400 was a so-called "demo," having been driven by Virgil Snider's wife.

It was Ted's first new Studebaker after graduating from college. Small world, and it accounted for what George felt was an unusually-good clutch. Ted had ordered a heavy-duty clutch, but the provenance and clutch option were unknown to George when he bought the car.

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss155/BobPalma/georgeandbob3.jpg

For the record, George Dale and I are cousins because his Mother is my Father's older Sister.

Having different last names and not living in the same town, or even the same state, has served us well. We can interact with people, supporting each other's position on all matters Studebaker, and the recipient doesn't know he/she has been exposed to two monkeys swinging from different branches of the same [modestly unstable] automotive family tree. ;)

We don't know what became of the Silver Hawk after George Dale traded it toward his new, now-famous Bermuda Brown 1964 Challenger V8 2-door in July of that year.

The Super Hawk was used up and rusted in two in normal suburban Chicago commuter use. However, its Serial Number plate, body tag, and title survive. It was a full-package Super Studebaker, but Uncle George had removed the grille badge because he thought it looked too "busy," like people remove the heavy lower grille emblem from 1958 Hawks. (EDIT: George discusses the Super Hawk further in Post #19, below.)

The Champion Regal Coupe survives in poor condition. It's still powered by the 1962 OHV Skybolt Six I put in it late in 1970. It's in a barn near Sheridan Indiana and has probably not run in 20+ years. I know the owner but have not seen the car since about 1972. :o BP

ddub
07-09-2012, 11:06 AM
Which of those front ends (referring to the cars) looks the best?

62champ
07-09-2012, 11:14 AM
Am pretty sure it is not insanity - keep reminding my wife that it is a "fruitful and healthy" endeavor....

Out of curiosity, are you scanning photos or negatives? My Uncle bought a Nikon camera (I still have) in Japan in 1955 when stationed in Korea. He took a couple hundred slides that would be pretty cool to scan and save. Problem is, he passed away ten years ago so there is no one to point out what is in each photo.

2R5
07-09-2012, 12:27 PM
Bob , that sure looks like George but you sure thats you ? <g>

R3 challenger
07-09-2012, 01:19 PM
Those photos sure bring back memories, Bob. I bought Ted's '57 Silver Hawk after Bob and I discovered it on the Snider Studebaker used car lot the summer of 1963. It was really interesting to a young gearhead because we immediately determined that it had 289, WCFB four-barrel carb, 4.27 TT rear axle, and it was in good shape. As Bob said, I always felt the clutch was unusually HD for a stock 289. It cleared things up when we discovered that Ted had ordered it new with the HD clutch. Our Uncle Jerry had bought a new '57 Silver Hawk 289 with OD (3.92 axle ratio); that car's clutch didn't feel nearly as stiff and it slipped under high power after just a year or two.

I traded "Ted's" Silver Hawk in at Snider Studebaker on the new '64 Challenger 2-door, which later became known as the Plain Brown Wrapper. I had installed a complete McCulloch blower setup on the '57 Silver Hawk (removed from a '57 packard sedan), so I removed the blower and installed it on the original 289 engine in the Wrapper, along with an R1/R2 cam. (Who cares about the warranty?)

It's interesting to reflect that Ted Harbit has had a lot to do with both the Silver Hawk we both owned and the Wrapper that replaced it. Shortly after buying the Wrapper, I decided to save it and found a rusty Colonial Red 1960 4-door Lark six with three speed stick to beat around in.

George

BobPalma
07-09-2012, 01:28 PM
Am pretty sure it is not insanity - keep reminding my wife that it is a "fruitful and healthy" endeavor....

Out of curiosity, are you scanning photos or negatives? My Uncle bought a Nikon camera (I still have) in Japan in 1955 when stationed in Korea. He took a couple hundred slides that would be pretty cool to scan and save. Problem is, he passed away ten years ago so there is no one to point out what is in each photo.

What I have are prints that were made from slides years ago. I never had the slides or "negatives" ...because there weren't any negatives, of course.

Uncle George was an excellent, accomplished amateur photographer. We are fortunate that someone in the family (him) captured so many excellent images through the years. :D BP

BobPalma
07-09-2012, 01:34 PM
Bob, that sure looks like George but you sure thats you? <g>

Well, since this is a political season, I will say that it is me, "to the best of my memory." :cool: BP

JRoberts
07-09-2012, 01:57 PM
Well, since this is a political season, I will say that it is me, "to the best of my memory." :cool: BP

.....but there's no beard. How could it be you?;) Great story here thanks for it and all the additions to it. A great read.

BobPalma
07-09-2012, 02:21 PM
.....but there's no beard. How could it be you?;) Great story here thanks for it and all the additions to it. A great read.

You're welcome, Joe.

The beard arrived in summer 1979. I had taken a nasty, high-speed fall water skiing and racked up my back. 'Spent two weeks flat on my back in traction in the hospital, which did a world of good and allowed me to avoid back surgery.

'Also allowed my beard to grow out. At the end of two weeks, both 'wife and I liked it, so it's been around ever since....but that was 15 years after the OP pix were taken. :cool: BP

studegary
07-09-2012, 02:47 PM
Thanks for posting these pictures.
It looks like wheelcovers for George D's 1957 on your 1955.
I remember George (Sr) as being a nice gentleman. Didn't he bring that 1964 to international meets, probably in the 1970s?

BobPalma
07-09-2012, 03:00 PM
Thanks for posting these pictures.
It looks like wheelcovers for George D's 1957 on your 1955.
I remember George (Sr) as being a nice gentleman. Didn't he bring that 1964 to international meets, probably in the 1970s?

Right, Gary, but I had my own set of 1957 wheel covers! I liked 'em (still do).

George will have to post about when and if his Father brought the '64 to any National Meets. I do not know. I do know it was ultimately parted out due to extreme Midwest rust.

BTW, there's always confusion about George Dale my cousin being a Jr. and his Dad a Sr. To clarify, he is not Jr. because his name is different from that of his father, in that his father did not have a middle name. So there's never been a Jr. and Sr. George Krem, although there are two of them. (As you can imagine, George has spent about as much time explaining that as I have correcting my name to Palma from the far more common Palmer!)

The same is true of our SDC Vendor Ed Reynolds and his father. Different middle names; no Jr. or Sr...which, of course, I learned the hard way by once referring to Ed the Vendor as "Jr" in his presence! :o BP

bezhawk
07-09-2012, 03:47 PM
Yeah, but what happened to Ted's 400? (inquiring minds want to know)

Bill Pressler
07-09-2012, 04:15 PM
Great pics, Bob! Not to wish myself to be older, but I do wish I'd have been more 'aware' of Studebakers when they were still new (I do have faint memories of our hometown Stude dealer with the sign out front). But heck, I was born in '58.

Best view, IMHO? The rear view, which shows that lovely, denuded decklid on the Bordeaux Red '64 GT--the best color right after Jet Green IMO!

plwindish
07-09-2012, 04:37 PM
Ya gotta luv the "Sultan of Sartorial Splendor" with the suit and bow tie. The bow tie fashion in 64 didn't make it down to Central IL where I was a sophomore in high school at the time. For us it was the thin ties and the shirt collars had snap tabs for giving the shirt and tie the classic look. Of course it goes without saying, Studebakers never go out of style! Too bad about the Super Hawk getting killed by the winter salt.

BobPalma
07-09-2012, 04:43 PM
Yeah, but what happened to Ted's 400? (inquiring minds want to know)

No, Brad; its fate / whereabouts remain unknown.

If you remember, a total of 51 Golden Hawk 400s were built; 10 show cars plus 41 "production" cars.

Two of the ten show cars are confirmed extant and their owners/whereabouts are known.

Eight of the 41 "production" 400s are confirmed extant and their owners/whereabouts are known.

We know the Serial Number of Ted's 400, so if anyone ever sends that Serial Number to Golden Hawk 400 Roster-Keeper Tom Lawlis of Plainfield IN with documentation that they own the car, you'll see an enormous announcement on this forum!

(Understandably, we don't want to publish that Serial Number. With reproduction Serial Number plates available and the font known, it wouldn't be all that difficult to create "Ted Harbit's Golden Hawk 400." That wouldn't be a good thing unless it really was!) BP

BobPalma
07-09-2012, 06:00 PM
Incidentally, regarding Ted Harbit's 1957 Golden Hawk 400. It had to be one of the prettiest, most loaded, desirable 400s made.

Per the Production Order: Midnight Black / Arctic White fins and grille side coves.

Loaded: Power Steering, Brakes, Seat, and [front] Windows. Tinted Glass, Padded Visors, Whitewall Firestone Tires, and all these AC numbers: 2834, 2774, 2747, 2777, 2756, 2858, and X2838.

I mean, talk about a drop-dead gorgeous car: How would you like to roll into South Bend at the end of the month driving that car with a no-expense-spared restoration having just been completed? :!:

Of course, you'd have to find the car, first!

Ted kept it 3 or 4 years. Then, he liked the new 1962 Gran Turismo Hawks when they came out, so he traded the 400 back to Snider Auto Service toward his ordered new 1962 Gran Turismo Hawk: White with blue interior and, naturally, 225/289 with 4-speed. :cool:

Hopefully, it will surface sometime, somewhere, and we can finish this story. :D BP

556063
07-09-2012, 06:02 PM
I too am in the minority of those alive when these great pictures were taken. I would have been about one year old. Wow, again, what neat photos Bob!

I have to wonder, though, looking at the trees and scenery, if this wasn't on a warm spring day, Bob. Just saying. Not to cause any controversy or ruin anything about the wonderful memories.

I know you've likely posted about that '64 Hawk before, but I'm just wondering if it was dealer stock or an ordered car. If it was in stock, the Hawk had been discontinued only weeks or months before. Any interesting post South Bend Closure story behind the acquisition of the '64?

I wish I could have had it instead of the toy dog (which I still have) for my first birthday!

BobPalma
07-09-2012, 06:25 PM
I too am in the minority of those alive when these great pictures were taken. I would have been about one year old. Wow, again, what neat photos Bob!

I have to wonder, though, looking at the trees and scenery, if this wasn't on a warm spring day, Bob. Just saying. Not to cause any controversy or ruin anything about the wonderful memories.

I know you've likely posted about that '64 Hawk before, but I'm just wondering if it was dealer stock or an ordered car. If it was in stock, the Hawk had been discontinued only weeks or months before. Any interesting post South Bend Closure story behind the acquisition of the '64?

I wish I could have had it instead of the toy dog (which I still have) for my first birthday!

Kevin, I'll let George answer the question about the timing of his Dad's Hawk purchase. I'm not sure if he ordered the car or exactly when he took delivery. Obviously, it could not have been in his possession more than maybe 8 months at the time, and I'm sure fewer than that. But I'll let cousin George tender the particulars.

However, I'll speak to the photo's likely date: It had to be taken no earlier than June, 1964. That's because I graduated from high school in 1964, and that visit was more than a weekend.

Obviously, I had been in high school before [approximately] June 1, so 'couldn't have made the relatively "long" trip (at the time, given my age and such) to a western Chicago suburb from the east side of Indianapolis to play hooky running around with Cuz George during the school year, and wasn't.

(I suppose I could have gone up during spring break, but don't remember doing so. But for some odd reason, I do remember stopping on the U.S.52 by-pass around Lafayette on that trip to adjust the drag in the steering gear! :woot:)

I, too, look forward to George posting what details he remembers of the Super Hawk's acquisition. :cool: BP

R3 challenger
07-09-2012, 07:26 PM
Kevin, I have all the original documentation for dad's R2 1964 GT Hawk, including the window sticker and the small piece of paper listing serial number and option numbers that we found under the carpet. He purchased it from Ray Motors on Irving Park Road in Chicago on January 29, 1964. The serial number was 64V-9251, and it was made on October 1, 1963.

In driving to his job as an engineer at Stewart-Warner every day, he took Route 19 into Chicago; Route 19 was Irving Park Road, so he would drive right by Ray Motors in his 1961 Hawk 289/4-barrel. He saw the R2 Hawk in the showroom window and a day later, asked me to go with him to look at the car. Being a high-performance enthusiast, dad couldn't resist the call of the Hawk, and we drove home in it. He paid $2,468 difference; sticker was 4174.13. Don't ask what the .13 was for. <GGG>

The car was beautifully optioned, being Bordeaux Red with Black Vinyl interior, and having the R2 High-Performance Package, Powershift, power steering, AM radio, white walls, heater and undercoating.

Sadly, as Bob indicated, it was dad's only car at that time, and it was eaten alive by the Chicago winter salt in a few years. It sure provided lots of fun as a driver, though; I remember beating a '60 Corvette in it and I still have the blower that came on the car. The car is being re-created by an SDC member, since he has the title and all body tags. Unfortunately, the last I heard, it was going to be painted Jet Green...a nice color, but not the original Bordeaux Red.

Dad was a great guy, a fine father, and did a lot of great engineering work at Stewart-Warner on guages for Studebaker during the late '50 and early '60s. Whenever an order from Studebaker would come in, the boss would assign dad to working on it, since they knew dad was a Studebaker man.

George


I too am in the minority of those alive when these great pictures were taken. I would have been about one year old. Wow, again, what neat photos Bob!

I have to wonder, though, looking at the trees and scenery, if this wasn't on a warm spring day, Bob. Just saying. Not to cause any controversy or ruin anything about the wonderful memories.

I know you've likely posted about that '64 Hawk before, but I'm just wondering if it was dealer stock or an ordered car. If it was in stock, the Hawk had been discontinued only weeks or months before. Any interesting post South Bend Closure story behind the acquisition of the '64?

I wish I could have had it instead of the toy dog (which I still have) for my first birthday!

R3 challenger
07-09-2012, 07:37 PM
Gary, dad's '64 R2 Hawk may have been at the 1968 or 1969 National Meets in South Bend. I couldn't get there in '68 because Uncle Sam wanted me, and I was shipped to Okinawa. I did get to the '69 meet, though. Sadly, after the early 1970s, the Hawk was not presentable enough (because of rust) to bring to the meet, and I don't remember him taking it there in the '70s

About wheel covers, they are not visible in the photos Bob posted, but my '57 Silver Hawk had Speedster wire caps during the time I had it. And I had it painted shortly after the photos were taken (white fin with the rest of the car being the light blue).

Fun memories.

George

.
Thanks for posting these pictures.
It looks like wheelcovers for George D's 1957 on your 1955.
I remember George (Sr) as being a nice gentleman. Didn't he bring that 1964 to international meets, probably in the 1970s?

556063
07-09-2012, 08:19 PM
WOW, great story and detail on the '64. Thanks George!

Doesn't look like there was any spectacular discounting going on on Hawks in January 1964. That looks like a fair deal. I know every source I've read or heard said the Hawk was selling well when South Bend closed. But, not well enough to carry the entire company. So happy your dad and family got it. I would imagine most all the Hawks were sold by spring of 1964. Your father was definitely the man for the car!

I was entranced by a white, '64 Hawk without Avanti power that was transacted in the South Bend area a few years ago. It was evidently stashed away and saved for posterity somewhere. As I recall, it only had about 1700 miles on the odometer in 2005 or so. With 2 young kids, I wouldn't have dreamed of doing it. But I looked at it, and did dream about it.

Thanks for sharing the priceless memories.

55s
07-09-2012, 08:40 PM
16259

I knew there was something I liked about you, Bob.

This is a picture of Flossy, my first car, a yellow 1955 Studebaker Champion coupe. The difference is, I couldn't sell her, and so - I still have her, about 45 years later. (the two tone green car in the avatar is Bert, a 1955 Commander coupe.) Both were made in Hamilton.

Maybe I'll get some more time to play.

Green53
07-09-2012, 08:50 PM
George's dad and mom were wonderful friendly and talented people.

Denny L

j.byrd
07-09-2012, 09:08 PM
Bob P., referencing post # 15, I wonder if the car I had in Alabama for a few months before I parted it out for myself and some other Huntsville SDC members could have been the same car ? The description is sure right on. I did save the firewall tag, but may have let it go to my pal in Clinton, Tn. when I sold all our stuff to move here. I will look again, and then contact him if you think it's worth it. This is sure a neat thread, love the stories and memories. Oh, I am just a young whippersnapper to you, I graduated in '65, ha !!

BobPalma
07-09-2012, 09:19 PM
Bob P., referencing Post #15, I wonder if the car I had in Alabama for a few months before I parted it out for myself and some other Huntsville SDC members could have been the same car? The description is sure right on. I did save the firewall tag, but may have let it go to my pal in Clinton TN when I sold all our stuff to move here. I will look again, and then contact him if you think it's worth it.

This is sure a neat thread, love the stories and memories. Oh, I am just a young whippersnapper to you, I graduated in '65, ha !!

Excellent, John.

No need to contact Tom Lawlis unless you want to. (He's not on the 'net, but is happy to talk Golden Hawk 400 on the phone or through the U.S.Mail. I just spoke with Tom on the phone today in the course of confirming the number of extant 400s.)

I have the Body and Serial Numbers for Ted's 400 in front of me. If you can locate and forward (or simply post) either number from the car you parted, I can immediately confirm if it was Ted's car. :D BP

BobPalma
07-09-2012, 09:41 PM
16259

I knew there was something I liked about you, Bob.

This is a picture of Flossy, my first car, a yellow 1955 Studebaker Champion coupe. The difference is, I couldn't sell her, and so - I still have her, about 45 years later. (the two tone green car in the avatar is Bert, a 1955 Commander coupe.) Both were made in Hamilton.

Maybe I'll get some more time to play.

'Way cool, Paul! Studebaker's 1955 Yellow (Encino Cream) I really like on those cars, and was glad mine was that color to begin with, even though I had the lower part repainted, of course. The car was originally the second-series two-tone, but I only had enough money for one color (hey, I was only 16, OK?), so I deleted the side trim below the quarter windows and kinda made it the early-style two-tone, but without the halo stainless around the bottom of the rear window.

Here's a circa 1970 photo after I put whitewall tires on it. It was the first time I had taken my new girl friend to a Studebaker gathering; an early SDC Central Indiana Chapter [at the time, now Indy Chapter] picnic in Noblesville Indiana's Forest Park. She must have enjoyed herself because she married me...36 years ago as of July 31, 2012, as a matter of fact:

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss155/BobPalma/bc1970.jpg

On Fathers Day 2012, last month, we returned to Noblesville's Forest Park for their annual Fathers Day car show, but I had the '72 Buick LeSabre Custom Convertible out that day. Here we are again, same couple, roughly the same place, 42 years later:

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss155/BobPalma/DSCF3282.jpg

Anyway, enjoy that '55, Paul. An Encino Cream 1955 Champion Regal Coupe has a special place in my heart, too. :!: BP

irish
07-09-2012, 10:11 PM
Great story Bob, and I really enjoyed the pics. Not many 'family photos' of Studebakers remaining anymore, especially color photos. Just one question though, you said the photos were taken in the summer of 1964, but the trees in the background sure look bare.

Joe

BobPalma
07-09-2012, 10:21 PM
WOW, great story and detail on the '64. Thanks George!

Doesn't look like there was any spectacular discounting going on on Hawks in January 1964. That looks like a fair deal. I know every source I've read or heard said the Hawk was selling well when South Bend closed. But, not well enough to carry the entire company. So happy your dad and family got it. I would imagine most all the Hawks were sold by spring of 1964. Your father was definitely the man for the car!

I was entranced by a white, '64 Hawk without Avanti power that was transacted in the South Bend area a few years ago. It was evidently stashed away and saved for posterity somewhere. As I recall, it only had about 1700 miles on the odometer in 2005 or so. With 2 young kids, I wouldn't have dreamed of doing it. But I looked at it, and did dream about it.

Thanks for sharing the priceless memories.

Well, Kevin; it was like this when Studebaker announced the Hawk was going down.

First, if you wrote a personal letter of protest, you got something like this letter early-on...from what appears to be a harried, tired Bill Dredge, probably reduced to typing his own letters on an old Royal typewriter someone had not yet thrown out as South Bend wound down. (In fact, note that the date appears to have been typed with a different typewriter.....maybe he had to put a new ribbon in it before he typed the body of the letter!):

***************************************************************************

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss155/BobPalma/studehawkreject1.jpg

***************************************************************************

Later, the fledging Studebaker Drivers Club had organized a formal protest campaign, encouraging the first SDCers to write the company to request the Hawk's continuance. If you particpated in that letter-writing campaign, you got this more formal dance step from Roy Bender...whose devotion to the Studebaker automobile was often questioned anyway (a little personal opinion, there):

***************************************************************************

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss155/BobPalma/studehawkreject2.jpg

***************************************************************************

"The rest of the story" is in the September 2012 Turning Wheels Co-Operator, so you'll have to be patient...if I posted any more, Art would kill me. ;) BP

BobPalma
07-09-2012, 10:24 PM
Great story Bob, and I really enjoyed the pics. Not many 'family photos' of Studebakers remaining anymore, especially color photos. Just one question though, you said the photos were taken in the summer of 1964, but the trees in the background sure look bare. Joe

Right, Joe; I agree. Check Post #18, above. If George remembers my coming up during Spring Break, I'll defer to his memory. I just can't imagine my parents allowing me to do that, and I remember how hot it was on the drive up, too. BP

R3 challenger
07-09-2012, 11:22 PM
Well, Bob, I can't remember for sure exactly when you came to visit, but since it happened during the time when I owned Ted's '57 Silver Hawk, it had to be between July 16th, 1963, when I bought Ted's '57, and July 31, 1964, when I traded it on the Wrapper. I have both purchase agreements from Snider Studebaker in front of me. I know that doesn't help much.

BTW, during the year I had Ted's '57 SH, I did the following to it: '57 Golden Hawk hood overlay (to clear blower), '57 GH/'57 Packard blower setup, Speedster wires, new white walls, NOS Super Lark rear stabilizer bar from the Studebaker warehouse, and a complete paint job (blue with white fin). I built a Heathkit FM tuner and hung it under the dash. It was powered by a unit in the trunk that converted 12 volts to 110 for the FM tuner. I ran the output of the tuner to the input of the final amplifier of the stock 1957 Stude radio and had an early mobile AM/FM home-brew sound system. (I'm a ham radio operator). Back in 1963/1964, not many cars had AM/FM, and the Chicago area had/has some good FM stations.

Note the front license plate location of the '57 in Bob's first photo. Illinois requires front plates, and I never did like them....especially on a Hawk or Avanti. I paid Snider $795 for Ted's Hawk. 'Wish I had that car back now, but I could barely afford the new Studebaker (the Wrapper) even with a trade...dad co-signed for me. Thanks, Dad!

George


Right, Joe; I agree. Check Post #18, above. If George remembers my coming up during Spring Break, I'll defer to his memory. I just can't imagine my parents allowing me to do that, and I remember how hot it was on the drive up, too. BP

BobPalma
07-10-2012, 06:26 AM
Well, George, since your Dad took delivery of the Hawk January 29, 1964, and you traded the Silver Hawk July 31, 1964, that narrows down the window of the photographs' date to sometime between January 29, 1964 through July 31, 1964.

So there you have it, readers: The original post photos were taken in 1964 sometime between January 29 and July 31.

That's our story and we're sticking to it! :D BP

BobPalma
07-10-2012, 06:38 AM
'Just noted the Patriotism exhibited by the Georges Krem.

Between their two cars, we have Red, White, and Blue represented.

The original Patriots, no doubt. :!:

(Uh-oh; now I've opened myself up to comments about being yellow. :woot:) BP

R3 challenger
07-10-2012, 05:38 PM
Bob, we can narrow down that window even more. I spent the entire month of June and most of July, 1964, performing with a brass ensemble touring South America. That means your visit took place during the time between early February and late May. I remember finding the Wrapper shortly after returning from South America.

Give us time, and we'll get it down to the day and hour Bob arrived! <GGG>

George


Well, George, since your Dad took delivery of the Hawk January 29, 1964, and you traded the Silver Hawk July 31, 1964, that narrows down the window of the photographs' date to sometime between January 29, 1964 through July 31, 1964.

So there you have it, readers: The original post photos were taken in 1964 sometime between January 29 and July 31.

That's our story and we're sticking to it! :D BP

BobPalma
07-10-2012, 06:26 PM
Excellent, George; thanks. (I should look up the date on my High School diploma and see if we squeezed the visit in late May before you left in June!) BP

j.byrd
07-10-2012, 06:30 PM
Bob P. referencing my post (#24) above, I haven't found the body tag yet, but did find a couple of pics of my car. It was black as you can see, the fins had been painted over as I believe the whole car had possibly, supercharged, white leather interior, power windows, etc. I kept the hood for my Sky Hawk, traded the doors for a fender for my car, and sold the supercharger parts to another fellow. I may have taken or sold some other parts, but then gave the car to a fellow in Athens, Al. that wanted to fix one up he said. The other wheels and other stuff was in the trunk, we flat-towed it with a home made tow bar to my 8 X 27 trailer I was living in at the time. NOW you know why I couldn't keep it ! Ha !! Tough times back then, but kept on Studerbakering, Fording, and motorcycling, ha !

BobPalma
07-10-2012, 08:35 PM
Bob P. referencing my post (#24) above, I haven't found the body tag yet, but did find a couple of pics of my car. It was black as you can see, the fins had been painted over as I believe the whole car had possibly, supercharged, white leather interior, power windows, etc. I kept the hood for my Sky Hawk, traded the doors for a fender for my car, and sold the supercharger parts to another fellow. I may have taken or sold some other parts, but then gave the car to a fellow in Athens, Al. that wanted to fix one up he said. The other wheels and other stuff was in the trunk, we flat-towed it with a home made tow bar to my 8 X 27 trailer I was living in at the time. NOW you know why I couldn't keep it ! Ha !! Tough times back then, but kept on Studerbakering, Fording, and motorcycling, ha !

OK, John; keep looking. Any scrap of paper with the Serial Number on it would do just as well. Have you stayed in touch with the fellow in AL to whom you sold it? Tried to find him? Is he an SDC Member?

Wouldn't it be ironic if he had sorta' "restored" the car as a normal Golden Hawk, not realizing it had been a 400?

Stranger things have happened.

Thanks for checking so far, John. BP

556063
07-10-2012, 08:50 PM
Bob and George, I'd go for Easter Sunday, March 29, 1964. Unless bow ties and black dress slacks were standard issue when I was one year old. When was Spring Break in Indiana Schools back then?

I can remember the heat and humidity of April 3, 1974 when I was eleven and on spring break. My hometown was hit in the Super Tornado outbreak that day, if that memory of mine helps explain your discomfort on the trip up to Chicago, Bob?

BobPalma
07-10-2012, 09:35 PM
Bob and George, I'd go for Easter Sunday, March 29, 1964. Unless bow ties and black dress slacks were standard issue when I was one year old. When was Spring Break in Indiana Schools back then?

I can remember the heat and humidity of April 3, 1974 when I was eleven and on spring break. My hometown was hit in the Super Tornado outbreak that day, if that memory of mine helps explain your discomfort on the trip up to Chicago, Bob?

Entirely possible, Kevin. We were going to church; that's why we were dressed up...and, as I said originally, I believe it was a Sunday morning.

Yes, back then, Spring Break usually had Easter Sunday at one end of it.

('Prolly has something to do with the good old days being the good old days!) :D BP

BobPalma
07-11-2012, 09:34 AM
Well, Bob, I can't remember for sure exactly when you came to visit, but since it happened during the time when I owned Ted's '57 Silver Hawk, it had to be between July 16th, 1963, when I bought Ted's '57, and July 31, 1964, when I traded it on the Wrapper. I have both purchase agreements from Snider Studebaker in front of me. I know that doesn't help much. George

Those of us in the automobile business, or familiar with it, will appreciate what I'm about to recollect. (Subject to George's memory, of course.)

To the best of my knowledge, and I'm fairly certain of this, George actually paid for the new 1964 Challenger, trading in the 1957 Silver Hawk, during the first week of August 1964.

(I was with George when we "found" the Challenger in stock at factory-owned Studebaker of Indianapolis, and accompanied him through all the steps of his buying it. That included getting it dealer-traded to Snider Auto Service from Studebaker of Indianapolis so our mutual Uncle Jerry Palma, then a Snider Auto Service combination salesman, could be credited as having made the sale...and was.)

However, I believe the paperwork was back-dated so the sale would appear to have taken place July 31. That way, the sale could be included in July 1964 sales reports. :woot:

(Not that this had not occurred previously at dealerships of any make, and/or does not continue to this day on occassion! ;)) BP

studerodder
07-11-2012, 08:12 PM
Bob,
this is verrry cool stuff. thanks for starting this thread.

BobPalma
07-11-2012, 09:04 PM
Bob, this is verrry cool stuff. Thanks for starting this thread.

You're welcome, Butch. :cool:

You never know where things are gonna' go on this forum: Wouldn't it be cool if we "found" the 1957 Golden Hawk 400 once owned by Ted Harbit, even if we only verified that it had been parted out?

If John comes up with either the correct Body Number or Serial Number, per Posts 24 and 25, we'll know!

Cool beans that would be. :D Stay tuned.... BP

R3 challenger
07-11-2012, 10:42 PM
Bob is right. I still have all paperwork about my purchase of the Wrapper. We found the Wrapper during the last few days of July. The initial sales statement, written by hand and signed by Studebaker salesman (and our Uncle) Jerry Palma, is dated July 28th, 1964. Next was a receipt for my deposit of $100.00, signed by sales manager John Knapp. It was/is dated July 29th. I then went home to Roselle, IL, and got a loan from Roselle State Bank, dated July 30th. The loan amount was $1,400; that plus the $100 deposit and one '57 Silver Hawk (Ted's) got me the new 1964 Challenger, with its original 289/four-barrel engine.

The next piece of paper was/is dated August 10, 1964 and is titled "Car Invoice". But handwritten at the top is the notation "Mailed to Purchaser". So it's likely I picked up the car in the week before that. Next, an "Affidavit of a Licensed Dealer" was mailed to me for licensing and title...dated August 19, 1964.

The final (and very important piece of this puzzle) was dated 11/19/64. It was the Paxton Products sales and shipping receipt for B-44, the R3 that is still in the Wrapper. It is stamped with engine number R3SK315, indicating it was a production engine. BTW, B-46 went into factory R3 Avanti R-5642, the next-to-last factory Avanti made, and a car I once owned.

I was in grad school when all this happened and working part-time, so it wasn't easy. I paid for it all myself over the next three years, but I couldn't have done it without my great dad cosigning the bank loan. I'm sure glad I bit the bullet, pulled the trigger, or any other trite saying you might think of; that car has given many people a lot of enjoyment over the years.

Sorry, this got too long.

George

studerodder
07-11-2012, 10:53 PM
no way was it too long, george. y'all got me hangin' on every word. thanks, Butch

BobPalma
07-12-2012, 06:57 AM
It might be noted that George's paper trail is longer than normal because he was a resident of Illinois buying a new car out of state, in Indiana. For that reason, there's more paperwork involved for an Indiana dealer selling to an out-of-state resident....or visa-versa.

My Father's dealership was in Paris IL, barely 9 miles west of the Indiana/Illinois state line. The big city (relatively speaking) of Terre Haute IN was only 23 miles away. Thus, they sold a handful of cars to Indiana residents and did not collect Illinois sales tax on them.

Here's an example for a new 1955 Commander. The salesman was Harry F. Rhoads, the "Studebaker" part of Palma-Rhoads Motors:

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss155/BobPalma/55comminvoice.jpg]

(Yes, I have a new scanner and I've figured out how to use it....so stand back!) :cool: BP

8E45E
07-12-2012, 07:52 AM
However, I believe the paperwork was back-dated so the sale would appear to have taken place July 31. That way, the sale could be included in July 1964 sales reports. :woot:

(Not that this had not occurred previously at dealerships of any make, and/or does not continue to this day on occassion! ;)) BP

I doubt one sees back-dating Bill of Sale slips much anymore; especially with insurance and the FTC involved a lot more these days.

Craig

BobPalma
07-12-2012, 08:02 AM
I doubt one sees back-dating Bill of Sale slips much anymore; especially with insurance and the FTC involved a lot more these days. Craig

Absolutely, Craig...but I'm aware of one instance where it was requested (but did not occur) in 2007. :rolleyes:

It is to the buyer's detriment here in Indiana. That's because the annual license plate Excise Tax is figured per month. You must pay pro-rated Excise Tax for every month you own the vehicle if you buy it mid-year.

So, if a sale is back-dated a week to "catch" the previous month, the buyer will pay the Excise Tax for that entire month! That can amount to $40 or $50 on an expensive vehicle...for the one month in which they didn't even own the car, if the paperwork is back-dated.

This didn't apply to cousin George in 1964 because he was not an Indiana resident and Indiana didn't have the Excise Tax back then anyway. But we're in agreement that he did not fully pay for and physically take posession of his new Challenger until sometime during the first week of August 1964...the sale date of Friday, July 31, 1964 notwithstanding! :eek:

Anyway, you're right; the practice is [thankfully] rarer nowadays...but not unheard of. BP

Studebaker Wheel
07-12-2012, 11:27 AM
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee285/studeq/newsgroup/64hawkwpskremreprocopy.jpg?t=1342109732

George; You mentioned you had the original window price sticker for your dad's R2 Hawk sold at Ray Motors. I like to keep files on these. Thought you might like this copy from my '64 price sticker files. This is your dad's car. By the way I met your dad on more than one occasion. A very fine gentleman.

R3 challenger
07-12-2012, 02:04 PM
Very nice, Dick. It looks exactly like the window price sticker for dad's Hawk that I have in front of me right now, handwriting and all. The only difference is that yours looks cleaner because it does not have a dab of glue right in the middle of the paper (or whatever adhesive they used to hold it to the glass)! One question: My original sticker has a bit more handwriting at the top, just above the letters "er" at the end of "Studebaker". It consists of two characters which look like someone intended to write "7B". The B is not written very well, but I think it's a B. Any idea what that means?

Yes, my parents were wonderful people; I'm fortunate to be their son.

George

R3 challenger
07-12-2012, 02:07 PM
Glad you like it, Butch. My last post was long, so this one's short. <GGG>

George


no way was it too long, george. y'all got me hangin' on every word. thanks, Butch

studegary
07-12-2012, 03:54 PM
It is understandable why Studebaker had a hard time selling new cars at that time. IIRC, my 1964 Fury hardtop was $3400 with 330 HP 383, TorqueFlite, SureGrip, radio, ps, heavy duty suspension, vinyl seats and much more. I believe that my father's '64 Fury with V8, AT, etc. was $3100. Later collector value doesn't matter because I only kept the '64 for one year when I traded it in on a new 1965 Sport Fury hardtop. That Hawk cost 16% more than my Fury that had more HP and equipment.

2R2
07-12-2012, 08:56 PM
Bob and George,

This may have been covered, but what happened to the 289 that came with the PBW Challenger? It had to be one low mileage engine when it was pulled! Also, did you convert it from a 3-speed on the column to a 4-speed at the same time the R3 was installed?

2R2
07-12-2012, 08:59 PM
OK, since I am asking questions...

Referencing the window sticker Dick posted concerning George's father's Hawkl....why do some window sitckers have the serial number written in by hand? It was obviously "programmed" in, as it is typed on the production orders.

enough out of me for tonight!

BobPalma
07-12-2012, 09:11 PM
Bob and George,

This may have been covered, but what happened to the 289 that came with the PBW Challenger? It had to be one low mileage engine when it was pulled! Also, did you convert it from a 3-speed on the column to a 4-speed at the same time the R3 was installed?

You're not gonna' believe this, Eric, but unless George corrects me, we don't know for sure what happened to the 'Wrapper's low-mileage OEM 289! IIRC, George traded or sold it to Ted Harbit along the way, but Ted isn't sure what he did with it. He thinks it might be in his big 1961 truck, but hasn't gotten around to checking that engine's serial number!

Again unless George corrects me, we left the three-speed, column shift in the 'Wrapper when we first installed the R3. George will post when he converted it to a 4-speed, because I was not involved with that.

Yeah, I know it seems a little gutsy running an R3 through the stock 3-speed, and we became only marginally smarter with age.

To wit: The first year we ran The Plain Brown Wrapper at The Pure Stock Drags, we had unbelievably good, sticky tires with excellent traction...and ran with the car's OEM tapered rear axle shafts! Yipes! BP

BobPalma
07-12-2012, 09:34 PM
OK, since I am asking questions...

Referencing the window sticker Dick posted concerning George's father's Hawkl....why do some window sitckers have the serial number written in by hand? It was obviously "programmed" in, as it is typed on the production orders.

Actually, Eric: If you stop to think about it, the "Window Sticker" for a given car, citing the options and prices, can be generated long before the car's Serial Number is known. It can accompany the car along the production line with no one paying attention to it until the very end, when the Serial Number can be entered at the end of the line before the sticker is glued on the appropriate window.

The Production Order, by contrast, can have the Serial Number typed in early in the manufacturing process as soon as a Serial Number has been assigned from a specific frame. Sure, the "Window Sticker" could be pulled and the Serial Number manually typed in right then as well, but there's just no reason to do so when it can be done at the end of the line by hand just as easily. BP

R3 challenger
07-13-2012, 10:56 AM
Hi, Eric. Bob and I installed the new R3 at the Ford dealership in Ottawa, IL, owned by Bob's dad, Lumir, and his brother, my uncle, Milt. We can't remember whether we did it during the week between Christmas and New Year's Day at the end of 1964 or a few days later, very early in January, 1965. The R3 came from Paxton in a sturdy wood crate. We put the "old" 289 from the Wrapper in that crate and temporarily left it at the Ford dealer until I could sell it.

The 289 had a new R1/R2 cam that Bob and I installed right after I bought the car. Part of the Challenger's purchase agreement was that I could order any parts I wanted from Snider Studebaker and they would let me have them at dealer cost. So I ordered an Avanti cam, a viscous drive unit and five-blade fan, a chrome engine dress-up kit, and a dual exhaust kit, all of which Bob and I installed with the blower I had. I sold the 289 with the Avanti cam and chrome dress-up kit since the R3 came with chrome and its own cam. At that time, I was in grad school and needed the money, so I felt I had to sell the 289.

Ted heard about the new 289 with Avanti cam, and bought it from me. He went to Ottawa to pick it up. Several years ago, I asked him what happened to the engine. Ted, correct me if this is wrong, but I think he looked around and couldn't find it or remember what he did with it. It may have been sold years earlier, because when Ted bought it from me, he had a "driver" '51 Commander (in addition to the Chicken Hawk) that he was thinking of putting the 289 in. It may have been sold with that car, but Ted might know better than I.

Yes, we installed the R3 using the original T-86 3-speed transmission....Yikes. I couldn't afford a 4-speed until several years later after I had paid for the car and the engine. In 1969, I had just got out of the Army and was working part-time at Arlington Motors, a Studebaker dealer in the Chicago area. They let me order a new T-10 4-speed from Studebaker parts at cost and I installed it myself with a Hurst shifter. That T-10 is still in the car, only my friend, Butch Lundstedt, installed the close-ratio gears a couple of years ago for dragging. I still have the original gears. The 3-speed, amazingly enough, lasted through several thousand miles. I remember beating a new red 1965 Plymouth (or Dodge?) HT 383 4-speed in the summer of '65 with the R3 Challenger, shifting that column shift 3-speed as best I could. The first run, the Dodge driver claimed he missed a gear, so I said "OK, let's go again." The same thing happened: He said "What do you have in that thing....you must have had me by 15 car lengths up to a hundred." Oh, yes, this was on the original 6.50 X 15 blackwall tires with a 3.73 TT rear end. We were about even in first because of those tires; as soon as I shifted into second, it was all over.

George

Bob and George,

This may have been covered, but what happened to the 289 that came with the PBW Challenger? It had to be one low mileage engine when it was pulled! Also, did you convert it from a 3-speed on the column to a 4-speed at the same time the R3 was installed?

2R2
07-13-2012, 05:04 PM
George,

Thanks for the history of the early days of the PBW! With the modifications you made to the original 289, I bet it was a quick little car! In addition, keeping the three on the tree with the R3 (hey,that rhymed!) I am sure made for the ultimate sleeper!

I have visited Arlington Motors, it must have been in the late 90's At the time, they had a few Avantis for sale, a mixture of Studebaker and Avanti IIs. I ended up at the family's house lookiing for parts. I recall they had a Champ pick-up, but nothing else to noteworthly.

StudeRich
07-30-2014, 04:15 PM
Steven B's Car (shown on the Haggerty website) is a VERY sharp looking '57 Silver Hawk that we have seen here before, as he is a Forum Member.

He has faithfully completely restored it with the only Mod I see that looks quite good by the way, is the Blue Side grille Panels.

ert62 hawlk
07-30-2014, 08:36 PM
The picture date and the clutch story reminded me of the 63 R1 4 speed GT that I was driving at that time and eventually trade because of the HD clutch was too stiff for my wife. It was the hottest car I ever owned Black inside and out, the last car I owned without AC. If you live in Mobile AL you need AC.