Brakes: A brake Question in three parts. for my 50 Commander

[Edsel G. Tattooer]

I was adjusting the brakes the other day when I noticed the rear brakes have only a little movement toward the shoes making contact with the drums. Like almost no play as in reall free and locked up, if that makes any sense at all. Is this normal?

Also When adjusting the breaks do you need to adjust the hill holder once and a while as well, or once the brakes are adjusted the hill holder should be fine.

And is there any one in the Minneapolis area that might have a drum puller I might use for a weekend to inspect the rear brakes on my car? or has any one had success making one?

[bezhawk]

Yah, the eccentrics are pretty touchy in their adjustment. The hill holder adjustments are all about the clutch linkage, brake adjustment doesn't affect them.
The rear drum puller can be made from an old hub, but remember the lug pattern is larger on 50 and down cars. I think they are the same as pickups though.
I don't see why you needed to adjust though, are your self adjusters missing or not working? Often 'mechanics' (and I use that term loosely) remove the adjusters because they don't understand them. Often replacement shoes didn't have the adjuster plug holes in them.

[jclary]

Unless you are willing to spend big bucks to upgrade and modernize your brakes to a contemporary system...this is just one of those chores that come with the hobby. I have cars with adjusters in place and some without. For me (and there are others here with far more experience), the best results in brake adjusting is to adjust the excentrics until the brakes lock against the drum and then back them off just enough for the wheels to move freely. Done properly, all four wheels will brake evenly if the lines are in good shape, clean fluid, and proper bleeding of the system.

The key to keeping good brake operation with the self adjusters removed is that you have to spend more time jacking the car and doing the job yourself that the self adjusters were supposed to do (and most of us don't). Of course, this is an over simplification of the process. There is the other factor of the arch of the shoes matching the inside arch of the drums. You can manually adjust until the cows come home, and if there is inconsistent surface contact among the four wheels...it will never brake evenly. I'll let others chime in about that.

[Edsel G. Tattooer]

When I had the front breaks resurfaced they ground the shoes to fit the drums properly. And yes they did leave a hole for the adjusters.

I do feel as if the brakes dont adjust properly some how I have had my brother help me a while back adjust the brakes and shop me the way to do it as described by john in the last post. My brother knows his way around old cars he has been a Mechanic for 42 years. I did the breaks just after I got the car 5 years ago. I did not do the rear set for the fact the last owner said she had them done, Or should I say said she had them done by some one. So I have my suspicions about them but so far so good. I have replaced every thing in the front set just as the repair manual showed so they have every thing in them they were supposed to have and work as far as I know properly. It's the rear that I want to inspect if I can just to make sure they are as they should be.

I have not replaced the Brake fluid I most likely should asap I have 2 other vehicles I have been meaning to do this to so maybe I'll make a day of bleeding brakes. then I can buy a cool brake bleeder tool! to make life easier in the future.

I am planning upon dropping the money and replacing the front set with discs and getting a new master cylinder to make it much safer for being a daily driver. I have been thinking while I type this I am feeling like there is an issue with self adjusters in the front brakes. they have always required more and constant adjustments than the rear have. I know the front brakes take more of the stopping force than the rear but it's always a issue with the front grabbing or pulling one way or another.

Any Thoughts?

[deco_droid]

I don't mean to hijack Edsel's thread, but on a related topic -- and maybe this is hard to gauge and subjective, but what would be considered "normal" brake pedal pressure necessary on a 50 Commander? My brakes seem to work fine, but man, I have to heavy foot it to keep the car in place sometimes -- say, at a stoplight on an incline. The pedal isn't spongy or anything, but I'm just wondering if applying a good deal of pressure is normal on these cars. Thanks...

[RadioRoy]

Since the forward facing shoes have the self adjusters on all four wheels, they should not need adjustment until the linings are worn out. Only the rear facing shoes need adjustment and then only periodically.

50 Commanders have excellent brakes (by 60 year old standards) but nothing compares to the surprise stopping ability of a modern SUV ahead of you with four wheel discs, anti lock brakes, and an inattentive driver who is texting or yelling at the kids in the back seat.

[RadioRoy]

I don't mean to hijack Edsel's thread, but on a related topic -- and maybe this is hard to gauge and subjective, but what would be considered "normal" brake pedal pressure necessary on a 50 Commander? My brakes seem to work fine, but man, I have to heavy foot it to keep the car in place sometimes -- say, at a stoplight on an incline. The pedal isn't spongy or anything, but I'm just wondering if applying a good deal of pressure is normal on these cars. Thanks...

It is subjective. Have you looked at your idle RPM and set that to factory specs, as listed in the shop manual? If you are idling too fast, that can require more pedal pressure. But do not compare any part of the driving experience to that of a modern car. All the feels and efforts are different. Try driving someone else's old car and see if there are similarities. 50 Commanders require more muscle than modern standards.

[deco_droid]

Roy, that is interesting -- and something I never would have thought, but I guess without a tach there must be some sort of gauge I would need to know the rpm, right? It seems "average" I guess, not fast, not sputtering to stay running.

My previous 66 Mustang didn't have power brakes but it did have front discs and the pedal pressure wasn't bad. That is the closest "old car" I have to compare the Stude against. Maybe my legs just need a workout.

[RadioRoy]

You should have a tach/dwell meter in your tool box for doing tune ups, along with a timing light. And, of course you have the shop manual so you can look up the idle speed. Actually, a MOTORS manual is really good too, and easy to find. Chiltons is not as good as MOTORS, in my opinion.

A 66 Mustang is worlds more advanced in feel and ease of operation than a 50 Commander. No comparison, although it's only (only?) 16 years newer.

[Frank DuVal]

Deco, several things:
1. IIRC, you just recently acquired this car. If the brake system has not been flushed regularly, it is probably full of the deposits DOT 3 leaves in systems after years of use. These deposits cause the pistons in the wheel cylinders to seize, producing a very hard pedal with little braking action.

2. Your automatic 50 has an anticreep solenoid in the rear brake line. If this circuit is working, the car will not creep in drive with the throttle at idle. The rear brakes are held on until the throttle is depressed above idle. There are only a few parts to this system, check them out.

I just replaced the hydraulics on my 50 Commander (rebuilt wheel cylinders, all else new, even rubber and now cunifer metal lines) filled it with DOT 5 and the brakes are very nice. I still have to wire the throttle switch for the anticreep circuit.

[RadioRoy]

Frank, You make good points.

It will be interesting to see how the DOT 5 works out for you. When I converted several of my cars 20 years ago, the DOT 5 leaked past the rebuilt cylinders. The new cylinders held it just fine, but any that I had reworked leaked.

[Frank DuVal]

I do not anticipate a problem, as I have been using DOT 5 in all my rebuilds since about 1978. That's a lot of customer and my own cars! Only cars that do not get DOT 5 are modern daily drivers and ABS equiped vehicles.

[deco_droid]

Deco, several things:
1. IIRC, you just recently acquired this car. If the brake system has not been flushed regularly, it is probably full of the deposits DOT 3 leaves in systems after years of use. These deposits cause the pistons in the wheel cylinders to seize, producing a very hard pedal with little braking action.

2. Your automatic 50 has an anticreep solenoid in the rear brake line. If this circuit is working, the car will not creep in drive with the throttle at idle. The rear brakes are held on until the throttle is depressed above idle. There are only a few parts to this system, check them out.

I just replaced the hydraulics on my 50 Commander (rebuilt wheel cylinders, all else new, even rubber and now cunifer metal lines) filled it with DOT 5 and the brakes are very nice. I still have to wire the throttle switch for the anticreep circuit.

Thanks for the information. As I said, I did not know what felt right or wrong with respect to the brakes on this car, so I may need to flush out all the old fluid and start over. If it still takes a lot of pressure, I guess that's just something to get used to. As far as the anti-creep system. I did notice the brakes holding the car at idle the first few times I drove it, but recently I haven't noticed it holding the car so I may have to look into that as well.