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View Full Version : Does buying up cheap junk Studebakers and parking them in a field till the day you die do any good?



64V19816
06-23-2012, 06:17 AM
Seriously....a lot of rust farms "ahm gonna fix em all up sumday"....while the cars turn into brown dust...who ya helping out???

Bo Markham
06-23-2012, 06:50 AM
Do you suppose that not everybody is wrapped around the all mighty dollar? Who says you gotta, "help somebody out" by selling your stuff to them. It's yours, you bought it with your hard earned money, and you can certainly do with it what ever you feel like. Seriously....you shouldn't get all keyed up over somebody else's stuff, or what they do with their stuff. I'm sure you have stuff that somebody else would like to have, but that doesn't mean you'd be inclined to sell your treasures just because somebody thinks you oughta sell it to them? Man life is to short to covet someone else's stuff. Be happy with what you have, then after the fella dies, see if you can buy some of his stuff at the estate auction that will be sure to follow.

rockinhawk
06-23-2012, 07:01 AM
I think we are all "Collectors" Some of us collect nicely restored cars and keep them in climate controlled garages. Some collect drivers and take turns useing them as regular cars. Some collect junk and put them in a field and watch them rust. some folks collect as many DOLLARS as they can and keep them in a bank account.

Whatever makes you happy.

DEEPNHOCK
06-23-2012, 07:17 AM
Hoarding takes on many shapes and objects of affection.
One of the ten commandments comes to mind...

thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

(Substitute Studebaker for ox, or ass:rolleyes:)




Seriously....a lot of rust farms "ahm gonna fix em all up sumday"....while the cars turn into brown dust...who ya helping out???

SN-60
06-23-2012, 08:59 AM
To; 64V19816,------- Well, the vehicle that's 'rusting away' could have been scrapped years ago and no longer exist...so I see it as a positive thing....But on the other hand, I have seen guys that have restorable cars
that they will not resell on the pretense they'll 'get to them' and never do, because of that attitude, We all get to watch said vehicles rot into the ground.

qsanford
06-23-2012, 09:07 AM
I think some collectors are afraid to sell their "gems" because of the unknown factor. While they own them, they have an element of control of their destiny. (Even if it to rust away) When they sell them, they realise that no matter what the buyer says their intentions are, they can do anything that they please to them.

studeluvr
06-23-2012, 10:05 AM
Being on the other end of the - I'll restore it when I retire story - After watching and inquiring about a 41 coupe in tall grass for many years my friend was successful in purchasing the Champion with 39,000 orginal miles on it but rusted pretty bad. So now its really modified and I got one heck of a nice drive train out of the deal. For years I sought a 57 Transtar that was next to a house in Sacramento until I was chased off by an ol' guy with a shovel screaming at me. Now house and truck are both condos. To me its like having kids maybe you shouldn't have more than you can afford. I didn't do well on both accounts myself.

Dick Steinkamp
06-23-2012, 10:34 AM
Seriously....you shouldn't get all keyed up over somebody else's stuff, or what they do with their stuff.

So true. There are so many ways for the hobby to give us pleasure, but many of us believe that OUR way is the ONLY way. Having a dream about "fixin' it up some day" is a legitimate way some enjoy old cars. So is collecting the parts to do one even if a wrench is never turned. So is owning one car your whole life...or owning 200. So is building a hot rod or a nut and bolt restoration that costs several times more to do than the value of the car. The old car hobby is a big tent. Like Bo says...get over it if someone doesn't do exactly what you do. They may be having even MORE fun than you are. :D

SN-60
06-23-2012, 12:04 PM
To: Dick Steinkamp,-----Nope, I definitely diasagree with You on this. If someone owns a vehicle they 'intend' to restore, best intentions, and a few years (You can't get the years back Dick) later they realize that
they never will restore it, they should sell it to the restorer (or maybe younger dreamer) who wants it. Years ago, I watched a REALLY, REALLY nice '55 President Speedster rust away because of a dreamer,...and I'll never
forget that. After He passed, that particular car slipped through the cracks and was scrapped for it's metal weight. Nope, that just doesn't make sense to old SN-60! Take care

JBOYLE
06-23-2012, 12:26 PM
People can do what they want and it takes all kinds in this hobby.
And so far, I've met most kinds...the die-hards, blow-hards, the dreamers, the braggarts, the "my way or the hiway", the "know it alls" all too willing to tell you what to think, the con men....

But the guy who parks cars in a field is saving them from an immediate scrapping.
Sadly, some will rust into nothingness and be lost forever.
But others will survive to drive again or donate parts for other restorations.

For every restorable car lost because the guy never gets around to doing it, probably another 3-4 cars (or parts) are saved.

Win some, lose some.

55champion
06-23-2012, 12:27 PM
I have a friend who for many years restored cars and built many Street Rods as well. He must have at least 10 old cars in his "Junk Yard" now. Three years ago he lost his health and is now on oxygen 24/7 and will never do another car. Many day now we spend just sitting in a chair by the Junk Yard and he enjoys just looking at the old cars and told me not long ago that "he could sell them but then what would he have left in life to do while he waits for death to take him". I never tried to buy another one from him after that conversation, let him enjoy this last year or so he has left.
By the way most of his "Junk Yard" is Mopar and seems to be well sought after these days..

gordr
06-23-2012, 12:43 PM
The "hoarders" are at least delaying the cars' ultimate fate. Quite a number of the cars I have here would probably already be re-bar in the Three Gorges Dam if I hadn't stepped up and bought them. And most of what I have would be for sale, at the right price, if the right person asked.

Bob Andrews
06-23-2012, 01:29 PM
To the OP-

I will confess to being one of those for whom you apparently feel disdain.

For many years I collected and stored unloved old cars. I would hook up my tow dolly and travel hundreds of miles at the drop of a hat to save a derelict car from the crusher. I once towed a '78 Lincoln from the UP of MI- backwards- through Canada- to save it from becoming a demo car. I hauled a rusted '62 Cruiser from IL for the TT rear end and a few other things. Towed a Lark body with no floors or engine/trans. from SC. I got a rep as a rescuer of cars no one else would get off their couch for. Why?

Reasons already articulated. One, I had a place to keep them safe from the crusher. To me, that was worthwhile. The other was, I liked having them. I know most don't get that, but it's how I am. So the cars were saved, at least for a while, and one thing you overlooked: it wasn't hurting anyone. Never mind that it was more than most would do.

I plan to sell the property, so this Spring almost everything left, something like 45 cars. Of the parts cars and borderline restorables, I was able to sell 12. The rest went to scrap. They exist now only in my iPhone photos as each rode a truck out of there. Many times, tears were shed, and I have to make a concerted effort not to think about the individual cars that were lost. My beauty and I decided it was the best thing to do for our future, although she tried to talk me out of it, knowing it would hurt me.

So, back to your inquiry. Not all of us are toothless hicks saying 'ahm' and having unreasonable plans. As Bo and Dick said especially well, everyone has their own way of enjoying the hobby, and showing their love for these inanimate objects. I am excited as I move to the next phase of my life in this hobby, but it will be a long time before I really get over losing the cars... and get past the urge to run off on a mission to save another car that many claim to care about and say 'should be saved', yet never step up to do it themselves.

I like to think I 'helped out' the cars for some years, even the ones that in the end were scrapped anyway. They would have been gone years ago; and some did do a part to help other cars. In the end, that's really all I can hang my hat on.

Whether anyone likes it or not, it's going to have to be good enough.

unclemiltie
06-23-2012, 02:22 PM
Thanks to those whom have saved the cars even as they sank back into the earth. Some of us may find a few parts to keep one of ours on the road once your treasures are sold at auction. While I do not have a field of cars, I have gotten some good parts from such fields over the years.

stupak
06-23-2012, 02:22 PM
I don't necessarily approve of the 'hoarding attitude' and I can understand each ones reason for doing what they do...BUT...when you think about it, how many junk yards started this way? How many parts, and even whole cars, have you gotten from a junk yard and put to use in your hobby? If they all would have been scrapped when their time was up, where would a lot of us, and our cars, be today? I know of several LARGE yards that have disappeared here in Eastern PA over the years. I remember every one of those yards with a tear in my eye. stupak

SN-60
06-23-2012, 02:42 PM
To: stupak,------- Someone operating an auto dismantling yard, and buying and selling complete cars and/or parts from those cars, isn't really like someone who has even one old car 'sitting out back'
who can't or wont ever restore it, but at the same time wont sell it (or parts from it) to others. I too miss the old time auto graveyards that are fast disappearing.
(I do 'get' the person who keeps an old car 'sitting out back' as a parts source for a similar model He/She may be operating.)

StudeRich
06-23-2012, 02:45 PM
I for one, am very sorry for your loss Bob.

I can't imagine having to lose 45 Cars, I just happen to have that many but they are all Studebakers.

studeclunker
06-23-2012, 03:05 PM
I have to agree with both sides of this discussion. Still, hoarding is a form of greed. I'm not talking about people like both of our Bobs here as what they do helps other people and the autos involved. I'm talking about people (for example) like the old man we have here in Redding. He collected literally hundreds of cars and left them to rot. The old fellow also had truck trailers stuffed with parts that likewise were left to rot. Why? Just because he could. The greed enters when these people refuse to sell either cars or parts thereof just because they're theirs, as this fellow did. Whilst these people have the right to behave like this, don't ask me to tolerate, condone, or admire this kind of greed. Waste sickens me in any form. Greedy waste particularly sickens me.:(

That's my two cents, for what little it's worth.;)

Flashback
06-23-2012, 03:29 PM
I took the attitude (many years ago), that I would letum rust away if I couldn't get a reasonable price for either the car or parts. I too, was one that, on occasion, would just go out and sit in my "junk yard". My Dad opened a salvage yard in 1947. I made my first contribution in 1958, when I was 14. Somewhere around 62, we were "partners". I worked a regular job and part timed the yard til 1980. I took over and ran it til 97.
At that time I decided to close and clean up. I had 488 vehicles at that time. 55 of them were 55 thru 57 Chevies. The oldest one on the yard was a 38 Dodge COE. I had a terrible time letting a lot of them go. Average scrap price was about two hundred dollars then. There were so many fifty dollar offers that I got sick. When the chrusher came, I had to stop selling, and then I was told what a bad person I was. This is the type thing that happens to many people who have two to twenty sitting. Many people "low ball" them on price, and they get to the point they won't even talk. Mine is all cleand up now. But, this morning I sat down in the edge of the woods and looke at an old 53 Chevy hubcap, a Comet deck lid. and a 53 Stude deck lid, that I ptomised myself I would finish digging out and throw in the scrap pile. OR WILL I ? LOL LOL LOL

31Streetrod
06-23-2012, 04:02 PM
The only thing this thread has accomplished is to vilify a man who just recently died and who quite possibly had OCD (google it if you don't know what it is) which is a condition that was beyond his control and has also give a forum to one who for the umpteenth time has articulated how he has walked on water. Let it die fellows! A member of his family has been on this forum in another thread.

Bo Markham
06-23-2012, 04:03 PM
To; 64V19816,------- Well, the vehicle that's 'rusting away' could have been scrapped years ago and no longer exist...so I see it as a positive thing....But on the other hand, I have seen guys that have restorable cars
that they will not resell on the pretense they'll 'get to them' and never do, because of that attitude, We all get to watch said vehicles rot into the ground.

Well, if watching that particular channel bothers you that much, change channels and watch something else. Pretense, or no. It belongs to them to do with as they please. Would you pass laws to compell people to sell even if they don't want to? What would you do when someone comes to your door and insists that you sell them something of yours that you don't want to sell. Put the shoe on the other foot.

Bo Markham
06-23-2012, 04:14 PM
The only thing this thread has accomplished is to vilify a man who just recently died and who quite possibly had OCD (google it if you don't know what it is) which is a condition that was beyond his control and has also give a forum to one who for the umpteenth time has articulated how he has walked on water. Let it die fellows! A member of his family has been on this forum in another thread.

Who ever the gentleman was, I certainly don't think of him as a vilian. OCD, or not, he had the right to own what he wanted and to do so without any outside interference from anyone. I applaud the gentleman for being the unique individual that he was. There is no compelling reason why he, or anyone else has to sell anything to anyone, just because they think they are entitled to something belonging to someone else. This notion that everybody is entilted to what an individual has worked hard all their life for is part of the problem we have today. Not just in the hobby realm, but every where.

Bo Markham
06-23-2012, 04:33 PM
To the OP-

I will confess to being one of those for whom you apparently feel disdain.

For many years I collected and stored unloved old cars. Reasons already articulated. One, I had a place to keep them safe from the crusher. To me, that was worthwhile. The other was, I liked having them. I know most don't get that, but it's how I am. So the cars were saved, at least for a while, and one thing you overlooked: it wasn't hurting anyone. Never mind that it was more than most would do.

Whether anyone likes it or not, it's going to have to be good enough.

Bob, What you have articulated above is me in a nut shell. The only difference I can really see between the two of us is that I lost my collection due to greed of another kind! Someone wanted my property to build $200,000.00 houses on and the city wanted the increased tax revenue. My property was condemned, taken and given to a private developer. I had just enough time to give some away, crush some and bring a few with me when I packed up and left Texas. The really sad part of the whole thing, the property had a natural artisan spring on it that kept 1/3 of the property in natural wetland (supposedly protected by EPA against any kind of development). The first thing the developer did was fill the spring with concrete. Today, there are 300 of the nicest homes you could want on the property. The streets and yards of about 1/3 of them flood every time it rains. City over looked any provision for water run off, removal, or retention.

Andy R.
06-23-2012, 04:37 PM
Aren't we all dreamers, here?
The only difference is some are living the dream while others (noted in the OP) are content to dream the dream.

It's no different from me accumulating old speed parts (sculpture) with the dream of someday putting them on a C-E Woody I'd love to build someday before I rust away completely.

SN-60
06-23-2012, 05:59 PM
To: bomarkham,----OK, let's try another example of what I'm trying to get across to You. An example not related to automobiles. I have a '55 "double strike" Lincoln Penny. This coin is somewhat rare, and I own it.
If I put that penny on an anvil, took a 4LB hammer and smashed it into a small copper blob, would that be allright with You? I know I have the 'right' to smash that coin, but would it really make 'sense'? (no pun)
Not to get 'too deep' here, but are We really OWNERS of or CARETAKERS of the past? Think about it!

63 R2 Hawk
06-23-2012, 06:17 PM
My late wife's 80 something year old mother had a 1957 Cadillac El Dorado Brougham, a 1955 Chevy Bel Air "Golden Anniversary" model and a 1964 Impala sitting in her driveway for years in Littleton, Colorado. Hardly a day went by that someone didn't ring the doorbell to try and buy one (or all) of them. Her philosphy was that as long as those cars were there, she *could* get in one and drive one "if she wanted to". None had been started in years and she was on oxygen but she clung to that delusion, I guess it made her feel better.....

TX Rebel
06-23-2012, 06:24 PM
To me the purpose of the hobby is the preservation of cars (& other artifacts) that are no longer being produced. That pursuit takes many forms and all can be respected, as long as the object is the preservation of the items, not wanton and wasteful destruction. Few reasonable people respect waste. Hunting for food is very acceptable, but a hunter who hunts purely for the enjoyment of killing is not respected, nor is a fisherman who catches good game fish and discards them in stinking piles on the shore. All they are doing is destroying game that others could be utilizing and polluting the environment..That is comparable to buying a well-preserved and usable historic building or home and demolishing it to make room for a convenience store or gas station. There are some in the car biz who represent this type of mentality and they are not respected as fellow hobbyists. We are into preservation & enjoyment-not destruction & waste. If you die without donating your organs to those who desperately need them, you are in the same category.
I have a large collection of parts & builder cars and they sit year after year not because I enjoy watching them dissolve away in this miserable Gulf coast climate but simply because it is not easy to sell a car that would cost more to build than it will be worth when done. Some of these cars get parted out because that is the only way to avoid completely wasting them. Anyone who resents the idea of a buildable car sitting here in the elements is more than welcome to come and buy it! www.studebakersite.com

Corvanti
06-23-2012, 07:33 PM
while i do think every Stude should be used to be rebuilt or used for parts to rebuild another, we still(?) have some private property rights. in this case for the "pursuit of happiness", whatever that may be, including hoarding items that may be wanted by other folks.

are we to point of: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" ?

that's all i better say!

Mods delete if needed...

StudeMichael
06-23-2012, 08:03 PM
Perhaps the hoarders have a place if the alternative is those cars would have ended up in the junk yard many years ago. You may not get the cars or parts while they are alive but lets face it, nobody lives for ever and at lease the cars will still be here.

DEEPNHOCK
06-23-2012, 08:22 PM
Best reply yet.
I wrote several pithy responses, but tossed them out.
This says it very well.
But having respect for liberty also means respecting one's right to do what you consider to be stupid.
While you might not respect a person for, say, not donating their organs, you cannot compel them to do so.
It is still their right to make that personal decision.
This hobby is to have fun. This is a club to have fun with cars.
Preservationists preserve things.
But... This is still a compelling conversation...
Jeffhttp://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/images/icons/icon6.png

hob·by
noun, plural hob·bies.
1. an activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main occupation






To me the purpose of the hobby is the preservation of cars (& other artifacts) that are no longer being produced. That pursuit takes many forms and all can be respected, as long as the object is the preservation of the items, not wanton and wasteful destruction. Few reasonable people respect waste. Hunting for food is very acceptable, but a hunter who hunts purely for the enjoyment of killing is not respected, nor is a fisherman who catches good game fish and discards them in stinking piles on the shore. All they are doing is destroying game that others could be utilizing and polluting the environment..That is comparable to buying a well-preserved and usable historic building or home and demolishing it to make room for a convenience store or gas station. There are some in the car biz who represent this type of mentality and they are not respected as fellow hobbyists. We are into preservation & enjoyment-not destruction & waste. If you die without donating your organs to those who desperately need them, you are in the same category.
I have a large collection of parts & builder cars and they sit year after year not because I enjoy watching them dissolve away in this miserable Gulf coast climate but simply because it is not easy to sell a car that would cost more to build than it will be worth when done. Some of these cars get parted out because that is the only way to avoid completely wasting them. Anyone who resents the idea of a buildable car sitting here in the elements is more than welcome to come and buy it! www.studebakersite.com (http://www.studebakersite.com)

rusty65
06-23-2012, 08:38 PM
Wow! Another 'hot button' topic here.
@ Bob Andrews,Corvanti and TXRebel, your replies were spot-on!
A few sayings come to mind here:
"Your money, your ride."
and in another light:
"It is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all."

8E45E
06-23-2012, 08:40 PM
You may not get the cars or parts while they are alive but lets face it, nobody lives for ever and at lease the cars will still be here.

The only 'advice' I'll make on that is if a particular vehicle does capture one's interest, it is not a bad idea to follow up on it regularly! One does not have to knock on the door each time, but look for signs of changes on the property, such as the vehicles starting to disappear, or a 'for sale' sign on it. If someone delays a return visit too long, one could be in for a nasty surprise, with all the vehicles having gone for scrap.

Craig

Bo Markham
06-23-2012, 08:46 PM
To: bomarkham,----OK, let's try another example of what I'm trying to get across to You. An example not related to automobiles. I have a '55 "double strike" Lincoln Penny. This coin is somewhat rare, and I own it.
If I put that penny on an anvil, took a 4LB hammer and smashed it into a small copper blob, would that be allright with You? I know I have the 'right' to smash that coin, but would it really make 'sense'? (no pun)
Not to get 'too deep' here, but are We really OWNERS of or CARETAKERS of the past? Think about it!

No, you don't get it and it has nothing to do with being some supposed caretaker of the past. What you do with what you have is your business, and nobody has the right, from any point of view, to tell you what you can and can't do with what you have. I happen to be an avid coin collector and have many rare and valuable coins in my collection. If you want to pound your rare penny into pulp that is your business and I could care less. Your action isn't hurting me, or anyone else so go ahead. While I think your action is probably foolish on your part, it is none of my business. Of course, if you pound yours into pulp mine becomes that much more rare and valuable. Now on the other hand, if I decide to pound mine into pulp that certainly is none of anyone's business, either. Nobody is entitiled to tell anybody else what to do with anything the individual has worked and paid for with the sweat of their own brow.

Bo Markham
06-23-2012, 09:07 PM
To me the purpose of the hobby is the preservation of cars (& other artifacts) that are no longer being produced. That pursuit takes many forms and all can be respected, as long as the object is the preservation of the items, not wanton and wasteful destruction. Few reasonable people respect waste. Hunting for food is very acceptable, but a hunter who hunts purely for the enjoyment of killing is not respected, nor is a fisherman who catches good game fish and discards them in stinking piles on the shore. All they are doing is destroying game that others could be utilizing and polluting the environment..That is comparable to buying a well-preserved and usable historic building or home and demolishing it to make room for a convenience store or gas station. There are some in the car biz who represent this type of mentality and they are not respected as fellow hobbyists. We are into preservation & enjoyment-not destruction & waste. If you die without donating your organs to those who desperately need them, you are in the same category.
I have a large collection of parts & builder cars and they sit year after year not because I enjoy watching them dissolve away in this miserable Gulf coast climate but simply because it is not easy to sell a car that would cost more to build than it will be worth when done. Some of these cars get parted out because that is the only way to avoid completely wasting them. Anyone who resents the idea of a buildable car sitting here in the elements is more than welcome to come and buy it! www.studebakersite.com

Barry,

Very well said. The only problem is that most of those that resent the idea of all those cars sitting there and really think you should sell the stuff to them, are often the ones that think you ought to sell that Packard 400 hardtop to them for $500.00, or that Packard Hawk for $750.00. Still though, nobody has the right to tell you what you can and can't do with the stuff you have, any more than they have the right to tell that low life fisherman he has to eat what he catches, or the guy that wants to build a parking lot where once stood a grand old Victorian era house.

JRoberts
06-23-2012, 09:10 PM
Geeze...I've been gone for a week and look at what the first thread I come to is......again:(

I wonder if the idea that people have the right to do what they want with their stuff will ever get across to some folks. :confused:

55s
06-23-2012, 09:17 PM
Here's what I think:

(1) You guys that are lusting after other person's parts should be very thankful for the hoarders here because Studebaker parts are still really cheap relative to other makes. They are often too cheap to take off! (i.e. the sweat of taking them off is less than the $$$ offered by the CASOs here)

(2) It is true that even a pretty decent Studebaker would cost more to restore than it is worth

(3) Even if you have a rusty old car, it is easy to close your eyes a bit and imagine what it looked like when it was new!

Kurt
06-23-2012, 09:35 PM
To: bomarkham,----OK, let's try another example of what I'm trying to get across to You. An example not related to automobiles. I have a '55 "double strike" Lincoln Penny. This coin is somewhat rare, and I own it.
If I put that penny on an anvil, took a 4LB hammer and smashed it into a small copper blob, would that be allright with You? I know I have the 'right' to smash that coin, but would it really make 'sense'? (no pun)
Not to get 'too deep' here, but are We really OWNERS of or CARETAKERS of the past? Think about it!

I don't know about Bo, but yes, if you want to take a hammer to your penny, it is YOUR penny that you bought with YOUR money, and in my opinion it is YOUR right to do whatever you want with your property as long as it is not against the law. Now do I agree with that.... Not really. To me it is a shame to watch vehicles rot away, or destroy things that have value or historical significance.

r1lark
06-23-2012, 09:54 PM
There is no compelling reason why he, or anyone else has to sell anything to anyone, just because they think they are entitled to something belonging to someone else. This notion that everybody is entilted to what an individual has worked hard all their life for is part of the problem we have today. Not just in the hobby realm, but every where.

Right on, Bo!

SN-60
06-23-2012, 11:08 PM
To: bomarkham,------This is really very simple....Your confusing someone's 'RIGHTS', which of course should never be trampled upon, with right and wrong!.......'RUST IN PEACE'!!!

Studedude
06-23-2012, 11:13 PM
Does buying up cheap junk Studebakers and parking them in a field till the day you die do any good?/Yes, absolutely, undeniably, and, without question! :cool::!:

SN-60
06-23-2012, 11:45 PM
To: Studedude,---If You have the time, read posts #'s 27 & 30 on My 'COUNTING '55 PRESIDENT SPEEDSTERS' thread (under General Discussion). Pictures say a thousand words, and if this doesn't help You to 'see'
what I'm saying....I give up! ( Mr. bomarkham..I suggest You also look at this.)

JBOYLE
06-23-2012, 11:46 PM
Everytime we restore a car we extend its life and that's good.
Once a car goes to the scrapper, it's gone for good. Unlike Mustangs and F-150s, they aren't making any more Studebakers.

If I didn't pay to restore my car, eventually it would have made it way down the automotive food chain, perhaps ending up as a parts car or worse.

So yes, buying an old Studebaker and letting it sit gives it a chance for redemption. And a chance is better tha no chance at all.

Chris_Dresbach
06-23-2012, 11:47 PM
I think we are all "Collectors" Some of us collect nicely restored cars and keep them in climate controlled garages. Some collect drivers and take turns useing them as regular cars. Some collect junk and put them in a field and watch them rust. some folks collect as many DOLLARS as they can and keep them in a bank account.

Whatever makes you happy.

Some, like my dad and I, like to think we are a combination of #2 and #3. We both have our show cars (choke caugh) and we both have our beaters, and both have at least one "pile" out back. I have my hoard, er collection, of stuff and if somebody approched me for a part or something they really needed to finish a car, I'd sell it or trade it. For me though, it's not about the money. I'm a collector and have a deep connection to the stuff because of where it and I are from.

StudeDave57
06-24-2012, 12:06 AM
So yes, buying an old Studebaker and letting it sit gives it a chance for redemption.
And a chance is better then no chance at all.
That about sums up my thoughts. :!!: :cool:

TX Rebel
06-24-2012, 12:26 AM
Barry,

Very well said. The only problem is that most of those that resent the idea of all those cars sitting there and really think you should sell the stuff to them, are often the ones that think you ought to sell that Packard 400 hardtop to them for $500.00, or that Packard Hawk for $750.00. Still though, nobody has the right to tell you what you can and can't do with the stuff you have, any more than they have the right to tell that low life fisherman he has to eat what he catches, or the guy that wants to build a parking lot where once stood a grand old Victorian era house.

Yes, we still have some semblance of property rights here, and you can't tell someone what to do with their property in a free country. If you have an extra couple of hundred thou laying around and want to fill your pool with Dom Perignon champagne, it may be utterly stupid, but it is your choice. I would not own a pool because the money could be spent more responsibly and ethically on building housing for & feeding poor people in poor countries. OK, maybe I'd would really spent the $$ on a couple of nice Studes & an insulated garage for them TBH. It could be fairly said that investing in saving things when people are starving and dying is worse than destroying things. Maybe it is rare and interesting things that should be preserved, and that for which there is no need or demand will not be saved, be it people or rusty, uninteresting cars.
People who behave dishonorably must endure the disrespect of responsible members of society, though.

Studedude
06-24-2012, 12:36 AM
To: Studedude,---If You have the time, read posts #'s 27 & 30 on My 'COUNTING '55 PRESIDENT SPEEDSTERS' thread (under General Discussion). Pictures say a thousand words, and if this doesn't help You to 'see'
what I'm saying....I give up! ( Mr. bomarkham..I suggest You also look at this.)
Why should I invest time in your attempt to justify your stance, while you refuse to invest time in understanding where those that don't agree with you are coming from?

Please, don't ever give up on something you believe in!

OTOH, don't expect others that see things differently than you to give up on how they believe, either.

I'm not saying you are wrong.

What I am saying is that you are no more right (or wrong) than those that disagree with you.

You live your life to your standards, and I shall live my life to my standards, while allowing others to live their lives to their standards, thank you ever so very frickin' much!

I reckon, while doing so, i should pray for Your approval.

SN-60
06-24-2012, 12:43 AM
To; Studedude,-----OK!....We agree to disagree.............Cheers!

Studedude
06-24-2012, 12:51 AM
To; Studedude,-----OK!....We agree to disagree.............Cheers!
:):D;):cool::woot::!::!!::lol:

Bo Markham
06-24-2012, 08:10 AM
To: bomarkham,------This is really very simple....Your confusing someone's 'RIGHTS', which of course should never be trampled upon, with right and wrong!.......'RUST IN PEACE'!!!

No, you just don't get it. You would try and tell another what to do based on your moral conception of what's right and what's wrong. That's your hang up man and that's wrong. You haven't the right to force your precepts on anybody. As long as a person isn't harming another living creature, or breaking either a man made law, or one from higher on up, that individual should be able to pursue life, liberty and happiness in any manner of choice. I don't recall any commandment, or Earthly law that says thou shall not own more than one Studebaker, nor one that says thou shall sell your rusty old cars to another because it's the right thing to do. No, you have dreams, go make your dreams, but not at anyone else's expense.

pdrnec
06-24-2012, 09:24 AM
All I'll say as someone who once collected more than he could restore is this: if these 'hoarders' suddenly decided to share their wealth on this forum it would generate a series of long threads either nitpicking the individual cars to death or expressing wishes that lotteries could be won to enable a purchase - and then they'd go off to the scrap yard for want of a buyer. That then would generate another year's worth of 'what a shame' threads.

There are a few individuals here who can be counted on to step up (and they know who they are) but there is also a stunning amount of lip service to the 'preservation of the marque' that so many espouse. Also no shortage of opinion on what everyone else should do towards that end.

Just my $.02

SN-60
06-24-2012, 09:28 AM
To; bomarkham,------ Using Your thought process, the "Mona Lisa' should have been enjoyed by it's original owner, then left out in the weather to rot! Who cares about the millions upon millions of people
who have enjoyed it over the last 400+ years--they're not important!... WAKE UP SIR!!!! Studedude and I agreed to disagree....suggest We do the same, and I have no further comment on this subject.
Take care

bob40
06-24-2012, 09:43 AM
To: bomarkham,------This is really very simple....Your confusing someone's 'RIGHTS', which of course should never be trampled upon, with right and wrong!.......'RUST IN PEACE'!!!
And you have taken upon yourself to decide what is right or wrong? Should we all be typing in these responses with your name being capitalized?

Bo Markham
06-24-2012, 10:22 AM
To; bomarkham,------ Using Your thought process, the "Mona Lisa' should have been enjoyed by it's original owner, then left out in the weather to rot! Who cares about the millions upon millions of people
who have enjoyed it over the last 400+ years--they're not important!... WAKE UP SIR!!!! Studedude and I agreed to disagree....suggest We do the same, and I have no further comment on this subject.
Take care

Had those millions and millions of people suffered grievous harm from it's demise, I would be the first to buy it and put it in a museum for them to draw sustenance from it. However, I don't believe any of those millions and millions of people would have suffered anything but perhaps trepidation. None would have starved to death, or fought a war over the supposed cultural and economic impact it's demise might have caused. No body would care that the man who painted it, or the man who first owned it died penniless and in want for a great many things of basic necessity. No, you confuse conforming to and catering to the masses to trying to control the God given freedoms of the individual. No, the masses are not entitled to that which the individual has created, or owns.

...

No! You can't have my rusty old Studebakers, they are mine. Find your own some where else!

Bo Markham
06-24-2012, 11:17 AM
To: Studedude,---If You have the time, read posts #'s 27 & 30 on My 'COUNTING '55 PRESIDENT SPEEDSTERS' thread (under General Discussion). Pictures say a thousand words, and if this doesn't help You to 'see'
what I'm saying....I give up! ( Mr. bomarkham..I suggest You also look at this.)

I know exactly what your saying. It has been expressed in many different ways, in many different places, by many different people. You feel you have the moral right to tell people what is right and wrong.

bezhawk
06-24-2012, 11:58 AM
Every source of used parts, be it complete cars, to a radio knob......has been by someone who cared enough to save said part(s) from being melted down.
Even if a current owner doesn't sell to you (too bad) the car is still here on this earth for someone to get use out of. (eventually).
Every effort is to be lauded wether or not they are eventually restored or not. Mother nature takes back what is hers' no matter what anyone thinks should be otherwise.

hausdok
06-24-2012, 01:01 PM
Hi to all,

I think I can understand both sides here but I agree that one has the right, whether it is a crime against historic significance or a crime against the hobby of car collecting, to let one's cars rot away if that is what one wants to do with them.

This same controversy goes on every day in communities across America when it comes to historic preservation of certain homes and properties, timberlands, wetlands, etc.. When it comes to timberlands and wetlands, though those properties are often private property the arm wavers who make the most noise seem to be able to get government agencies to jump in on both sides of the argument. You don't see that much with historic homes. However, if you look at historic preservation efforts in many states you will find that there are organizations - clubs if you will - where those who are interested in preserving historic homes and lands band together and pool their resources and buy those homes in order to save those places from developers. It even goes on at the national government level; however, we don't have it with cars, or coins or many other things that we humans seem to hold dear.

A few years ago I was looking at starting a school to teach my profession. I wanted it to be better than any other in the country; and, most of all, I wanted it to be a "real" school - not a two week shake 'n bake held in a conference room in a hotel somewhere. I scoured the country for old school buildings. I found a lot of them. Most were owned by folks who were hanging onto them in the hopes of making a killing on the sale. I can respect that, but some of those nice old buildings sadly got condemned by local authorities and ended up being plowed into the ground and were lost; others were sold and demolished and got replaced by new condos or commercial buildings and the owners made the killing they'd been planning to make.

A few tough are still around and won't be disappearing anytime soon because some folks who cared pooled resources and saw to it they were saved. Case in point, I found one high school about an hours drive from Atlanta that had 13,000sf of classrooms plus administrative space, plus an auditorium and a gymnasium. The local historical society had purchased the building from the city and was willing to sell the building to me for a dollar if I agreed to keep the exterior of the building looking the same. Sadly, for me anyway, the interior of the bulding needs about $2M dollars worth of renovations and it was too far away and would have cost too much for myself and those interested in partnering with me to afford, so we passed. It did eventually go to someone else who I understand is doing right by it and it turned out to be a win-win for the city and the folks who purchased it.

Check out your own states. Just google "historic north carilina preservation" or "historic louisiana preservation" or "historic texas preservation" and see what you come up with. You might discoverer websites where when you click on "real estate for sale" you can find some incredible bargains - bargains tied to certain conditions but in most cases conditions that are acceptable to those purchasing if they are also interested in preservation.

It's possible for SDC chapters to do something similar on a smaller scale. There was the thread here where Mr. Kirby garnered so many cars that he loved and wanted to one day restore but he never had the opportunity, or the money I suppose, to do so. When those cars came up for sale it didn't look like there was a flood of folks here willing to pull coin out of their own pockets to preserve that collection but there were some who were lamenting about what a shame it was that they were so far away, or that he'd let them go to waste. It seems to me that a local chapter could have entered into an agreement with the Kirby family to remove whole cars from the property, could have moved them to another location and then could have parted them out or sold them and split the profits with the family.

Yeah, I know, the EPA said they couldn't be parted out. Fine, each car could have been transferred whole to a new owner, who would have been a member of the collective that wanted to save those cars, and then that person could have "donated" that car to the collective and the collective could have found a place to put them, dismanteled them, inventoried/stored the usable/salvabeable parts or cars, then sold the parts/cars to SDC members from around the country, given the Kirby family their agreed-upon cut and then used the rest of the profits to salvage other Studebakers in their region from the scrap heap.

If families are under the gun to remove cars and are selling them to a scrap yard, you know that the scrapper is not paying scale - he's paying less and tellling them he's doing them a favor. What if a chapter had a preservation fund that everyone donated to every month that would accumulate the way a condo's reserve fund accumulates? Then, if the chapter sees a car at risk the chapter can have a preservation committee meet with the owner(s) and show the owner how it will be possible to save the car - maybe not in one piece but at least from the smelter. The chapter could agree to initially pay whatever the prevailing scrap rate is for the car plus a percentage of the profits made from the sold parts. Club members would donate time and labor to moving/parting/storing/selling them. The cars would be saved from the smelter - at least until they'd been sensibly parted out - and the person passing and his family could feel better knowing that those cars finally contributed to continuation of the hobby.

When Harold LeMay died he owned more than 3500 vehicles spread out in hundreds of buildings. I know one old gentleman who sold LeMay 30 cars in various states of disrepair. He's 86 now and a dear friend of mine. He had cars stored all over Puget Sound in various places and knew that he'd never have anough time or money to preserve them all, so he kept a couple and LeMay got the rest. Fortunately, LeMay was wealthy enough that many of his vehicles did get restored. When he died, a concerned group of folks got together that didn't want to see that collection get scrapped so they decided to build a museum and got the City of Tacoma involved, In the end, they ended up with a beautiful new attraction for the city, in which they intend to rotate LeMay's collection at about 200 vehicles at a time, and earlier this month they had their grand opening. Many of Mr. LeMay's cars will be saved - not all, but many, and those that aren't are being sold to collectors. Obviously, it's possible, when people want to take the time to do more than talk, to do more to save cars like this.

The Lions Club, The Elks, The Eagles are all fraternal organizations of folks who share interests and do good things for their communities; why can't car clubs be the same way? Is being a car club member just about hanging around on forums or going to drive-ins to show of what's "your's" and talking about the hobby, or could it be something more such as activisim focused on preserving the club's marque? Couldn't a local SDC chapter, knowing that someone's collection is at risk work with an owner to ensure that if that owner passes his/her collection doesn't go to the scrap heap?

Bet they could....if they wanted to.

To the O.P., the next time you see a collection at risk, why don't you show the rest of us how to walk the walk.

TX Rebel
06-24-2012, 01:45 PM
The numerous wise comments from most of you have been interesting to read. Thank God we live in a place where we still have the freedom to own & preserve what we like and enjoy, even if it means that our neighbors will not like the same things we like & vice versa.

qsanford
06-24-2012, 02:19 PM
Hi to all,

I think I can understand both sides here but I agree that one has the right, whether it is a crime against historic significance or a crime against the hobby of car collecting, to let one's cars rot away if that is what one wants to do with them.

This same controversy goes on every day in communities across America when it comes to historic preservation of certain homes and properties, timberlands, wetlands, etc.. When it comes to timberlands and wetlands, though those properties are often private property the arm wavers who make the most noise seem to be able to get government agencies to jump in on both sides of the argument. You don't see that much with historic homes. However, if you look at historic preservation efforts in many states you will find that there are organizations - clubs if you will - where those who are interested in preserving historic homes and lands band together and pool their resources and buy those homes in order to save those places from developers. It even goes on at the national government level; however, we don't have it with cars, or coins or many other things that we humans seem to hold dear.

A few years ago I was looking at starting a school to teach my profession. I wanted it to be better than any other in the country; and, most of all, I wanted it to be a "real" school - not a two week shake 'n bake held in a conference room in a hotel somewhere. I scoured the country for old school buildings. I found a lot of them. Most were owned by folks who were hanging onto them in the hopes of making a killing on the sale. I can respect that, but some of those nice old buildings sadly got condemned by local authorities and ended up being plowed into the ground and were lost; others were sold and demolished and got replaced by new condos or commercial buildings and the owners made the killing they'd been planning to make.

A few tough are still around and won't be disappearing anytime soon because some folks who cared pooled resources and saw to it they were saved. Case in point, I found one high school about an hours drive from Atlanta that had 13,000sf of classrooms plus administrative space, plus an auditorium and a gymnasium. The local historical society had purchased the building from the city and was willing to sell the building to me for a dollar if I agreed to keep the exterior of the building looking the same. Sadly, for me anyway, the interior of the bulding needs about $2M dollars worth of renovations and it was too far away and would have cost too much for myself and those interested in partnering with me to afford, so we passed. It did eventually go to someone else who I understand is doing right by it and it turned out to be a win-win for the city and the folks who purchased it.

Check out your own states. Just google "historic north carilina preservation" or "historic louisiana preservation" or "historic texas preservation" and see what you come up with. You might discoverer websites where when you click on "real estate for sale" you can find some incredible bargains - bargains tied to certain conditions but in most cases conditions that are acceptable to those purchasing if they are also interested in preservation.

It's possible for SDC chapters to do something similar on a smaller scale. There was the thread here where Mr. Kirby garnered so many cars that he loved and wanted to one day restore but he never had the opportunity, or the money I suppose, to do so. When those cars came up for sale it didn't look like there was a flood of folks here willing to pull coin out of their own pockets to preserve that collection but there were some who were lamenting about what a shame it was that they were so far away, or that he'd let them go to waste. It seems to me that a local chapter could have entered into an agreement with the Kirby family to remove whole cars from the property, could have moved them to another location and then could have parted them out or sold them and split the profits with the family.

Yeah, I know, the EPA said they couldn't be parted out. Fine, each car could have been transferred whole to a new owner, who would have been a member of the collective that wanted to save those cars, and then that person could have "donated" that car to the collective and the collective could have found a place to put them, dismanteled them, inventoried/stored the usable/salvabeable parts or cars, then sold the parts/cars to SDC members from around the country, given the Kirby family their agreed-upon cut and then used the rest of the profits to salvage other Studebakers in their region from the scrap heap.

If families are under the gun to remove cars and are selling them to a scrap yard, you know that the scrapper is not paying scale - he's paying less and tellling them he's doing them a favor. What if a chapter had a preservation fund that everyone donated to every month that would accumulate the way a condo's reserve fund accumulates? Then, if the chapter sees a car at risk the chapter can have a preservation committee meet with the owner(s) and show the owner how it will be possible to save the car - maybe not in one piece but at least from the smelter. The chapter could agree to initially pay whatever the prevailing scrap rate is for the car plus a percentage of the profits made from the sold parts. Club members would donate time and labor to moving/parting/storing/selling them. The cars would be saved from the smelter - at least until they'd been sensibly parted out - and the person passing and his family could feel better knowing that those cars finally contributed to continuation of the hobby.

When Harold LeMay died he owned more than 3500 vehicles spread out in hundreds of buildings. I know one old gentleman who sold LeMay 30 cars in various states of disrepair. He's 86 now and a dear friend of mine. He had cars stored all over Puget Sound in various places and knew that he'd never have anough time or money to preserve them all, so he kept a couple and LeMay got the rest. Fortunately, LeMay was wealthy enough that many of his vehicles did get restored. When he died, a concerned group of folks got together that didn't want to see that collection get scrapped so they decided to build a museum and got the City of Tacoma involved, In the end, they ended up with a beautiful new attraction for the city, in which they intend to rotate LeMay's collection at about 200 vehicles at a time, and earlier this month they had their grand opening. Many of Mr. LeMay's cars will be saved - not all, but many, and those that aren't are being sold to collectors. Obviously, it's possible, when people want to take the time to do more than talk, to do more to save cars like this.

The Lions Club, The Elks, The Eagles are all fraternal organizations of folks who share interests and do good things for their communities; why can't car clubs be the same way? Is being a car club member just about hanging around on forums or going to drive-ins to show of what's "your's" and talking about the hobby, or could it be something more such as activisim focused on preserving the club's marque? Couldn't a local SDC chapter, knowing that someone's collection is at risk work with an owner to ensure that if that owner passes his/her collection doesn't go to the scrap heap?

Bet they could....if they wanted to.

To the O.P., the next time you see a collection at risk, why don't you show the rest of us how to walk the walk.

An excellent example of this type of organization is Indiana Landmarks. They will purchase threatened properties, Stabilize them, attach protective covenants to their Deeds, and then sell them at a reasonable price to people willing to restore them. Too bad we couldn't interest them in The Administration Building. They could save it and SDC could operate out of it!!

hausdok
06-24-2012, 03:32 PM
An excellent example of this type of organization is Indiana Landmarks. They will purchase threatened properties, Stabilize them, attach protective covenants to their Deeds, and then sell them at a reasonable price to people willing to restore them. Too bad we couldn't interest them in The Administration Building. They could save it and SDC could operate out of it!!The American Society of Home Inspectors, an organization of less than 7,000 folks, bought their own building in Chicago and paid off the mortgage by taking a few bucks out of every member's dues and putting it aside for that building.

5859
06-24-2012, 04:06 PM
All I have to say on this subject is this: When you have something you don't want to sell it drives some people crazy and they won't leave you alone or ever stop trying to buy it. When you decide to sell, often no one seems to want it anymore including the pests that wouldn't quit bothering you in the first place.

showbizkid
06-24-2012, 08:45 PM
Continue the discussion, but keep politics out of it, please.

mbstude
06-25-2012, 01:09 AM
All I have to say on this subject is this: When you have something you don't want to sell it drives some people crazy and they won't leave you alone or ever stop trying to buy it. When you decide to sell, often no one seems to want it anymore including the pests that wouldn't quit bothering you in the first place.

Exactly. A friend and I were discussing this thread on the phone this evening. I made a comment about how there are way more Studebakers on this earth than owners. Think about it.. If all of these hoards of cars became available, how many people would step up and restore one of them, much less 50?

I can remember being a kid (6 years old) and fighting over a toy with my little sister; only wanting it because she had it first. It seems that mentality doesn't always get left at childhood. <grin>

Bo Markham
06-25-2012, 06:48 AM
Matthew,

Sometimes, you are a very insightful you fella, when you want to be. I'd say your just about right on target. Some would indeed step up and buy the best of the hardtops, coupes and convertibles, but anything else would still be left to rot away, or perhaps be stripped of parts to complete the more desireable of the bunch. People just have to face reality, no one in their right mind would spend a fortune restoring a 6 cylinder sedan when they could spend that money on a trip to Vegas.

Johnnywiffer
06-25-2012, 09:31 AM
This one is pretty recent...however....http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?61001-Bob-Palma-s-MoPar-thread-reminded-me-of-the-time (http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?61001-Bob-Palma-s-MoPar-thread-reminded-me-of-the-time)....

John