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JRoberts
07-16-2007, 11:31 PM
My son aquired a really nice old Edmunds dual carb intake a few years ago. His plan was (is?) to put two Stromberg WW's on it and hook these to two Superchargers. His question is will those carbs work with a Studebaker type supercharger (He has been designing a belt driven set up as per Mustangs etc, but for dual superchargers). I think his big question is will they be able to handle the fuel needed for the set up?

This whole set up is for his '58 Silver Hawk that is sitting patiently at my house.

Note that I am not the mechanic here so I may not have worded things just right but he asked me to put this question on the forum and I think I have put the jist of what he wants to know down here.
Thanks for the help,
Joe Roberts

JDP
07-16-2007, 11:47 PM
I happen to have a a vintage aluminum tee to split the hose from the blower. You'll have to seal the carbs or use two pressure boxes though.

JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
59 3E truck
58 Starlight
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander

silverhawk1958
07-17-2007, 08:18 AM
I am the son and I figured I should go ahead and register to answer any questions anyone has about the setup. I have a 289 full flow block with R crank Dished pistons etc. I was going to use the dual 2bbl intake with two stromberg WW carbs. I have a collection of jets for these but I am worried that they will not flow enough to be able to handle the dual superchargers. I hope to run dual paxton sn93s with upwards of 15 pounds of boost.

I have the pressure boxes for the carbs but I am wondering if it would be easier (safer) to run one really large 4bbl or two smaller 4 bbl to make sure I don't go lean with that kind of boost.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

Matt R.

S2DSteve
07-17-2007, 12:06 PM
You need to talk to Karl Sparks. He's been running dual Paxtons into dual 4's for a couple decades now. Ron Hall's record setting Bonneville Avanti of a few years ago ran 2 Paxtons into a pressure box. Check the "monster engine" thread for a current "over the top" version. An appropriate size 4bbl in a pressure box is probably the most practical/efficient way to go. Otherwise you'll need to use the special/rare/expensive sealed carbs, or figure out how to get 2 carbs inside a box. Good luck with your project and keep us updated.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u57/S2DSteve/Convert010-1.jpg

Steve Hudson
The Dalles, Oregon
1949 "GMOBaker" 1-T Dually
1953 Commander Convertible
1954 Champion Coupe
1960 Hawk

silverhawk1958
07-17-2007, 12:26 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking that a single large 4bbl in a box will be much easier to tune than dual anythings.

As far as the twin 2bbls they actually fit inside the original Studebaker pressure boxes and sit on the manifold without too much of a problem. I would have to cut and re-weld the intake tube for the rear box to get it at enough of an angle so that a charge pipe would fit around it.

anybody else have an idea if the twin 2 barrels could keep up?

Matt

Dick Steinkamp
07-17-2007, 12:31 PM
I'm no supercharger expert, but I'd say 15 pounds of boost would be deadly to that motor...unless you are cross bolting mains adding head bolts and doing a bunch of other fancy and expensive things to make it strong enough to handle that sort of boost. Stude motors are tough, but 15 pounds is into the compression engine category. [:0] Fuel would be over $5/gallon to run something like that and available only at major race tracks.

Also, if you truly are building a full on race motor, you will need a lot more carburetor than 2 WW's. Karl is running about three times the carb flow as what you are considering and is probably no where near 15 pounds of boost.

There is "the cool factor", however [8D]. Having a blower feeding two WW's would look darn right cool for sure! (you can't hide them in a pressure box, however, or the "cool factor" is substantially reduced)

If you want to build a super high horsepower Stude motor, it can be done...probably something north of $25,000. If you want it to just look super cool, you could even consider your 2 WW set up and a "dummy" SC.



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

1956 Hawk
07-17-2007, 12:57 PM
Matt, two Stromburg carbs are going to give you less CFM than a Carter or Edelbrock carb. On my Hawk I originally had a 57 Golden Hawk setup. I switched to a 600 CFM Edelbrock and cut over two seconds off my 0-60 time. I then tried a 800 CFM Edelbrock, but found no measurable difference in power. This is with 5-7lbs of boost.
What are your plans for your Hawk? Except for looks, I think you will be better off with a single carb in the 600-800 CFM range.
David

http://thumb2.webshots.net/t/58/158/2/53/30/2596253300089385702FxImoa_th.jpghttp://thumb2.webshots.net/t/54/154/6/1/46/2168601460089385702KmSKeM_th.jpg

PackardV8
07-17-2007, 01:50 PM
Greetings, Joe,

Decide on your goal. If it is maximum racetrack horsepower, spend the money on porting the heads, then on a more modern supercharger, such as a Vortec or Procharger blowing through a single 4-bbl on an R3-type intake.

That old Edmunds intake and two Stromberg WWs may look tempting, but it will never make real horsepower. The ports on that intake were designed for the 232" small valve heads and won't flow sufficient air.

One thing which needs mentioning; the two WWs will flow enough air for fast street use when supercharged. Remember, Stude claimed 275hp with a single WW on 5-7 psi boost. Two of them at 15 psi would easily get you to 600 hp if the intake restriction were out of the way.

If you just want a trick look when you pop the hood at a Stude meet or a cruise night, by all means, go ahead. The twin Paxton, twin WW, twin polished GH airboxes, polished intake setup you describe will be off the top end of the bling chart. That it will also have more Stude DNA than an all-new setup is a positive for most of us.

thnx, jv.


PackardV8

silverhawk1958
07-17-2007, 03:47 PM
Thank you PackardV8, I will double check tonight after I get home but now that you mention that it makes since. I don't want to do all of the grinding to open up that intake and run into a chance of upsetting the strength of the casting. I think that I may go towards a single large 4bbl and pressure box, that will keep the stude parts but keep the tunning a lot easier.

As far as "looking cool" or a "bling factor" that is not what I am after although it doesn't hurt. 15psi on a 8.5:1 compression ratio with a centrifuge type supercharger should not destroy the motor. Those supercharges only see peak boost numbers at peak RPM although with the paxton ball design you can over spin them and hit boost a little early. With shot peened forged internals and conservative timing I think that should be OK without anything too fancy.


Matt

Dan White
07-17-2007, 03:51 PM
Lionel Stone I believe has a 2X2 Al repro manifold he sells, not sure of the port size. See his ad in TW.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

Dick Steinkamp
07-17-2007, 04:30 PM
quote:Originally posted by silverhawk1958
15psi on a 8.5:1 compression ratio with a centrifuge type supercharger should not destroy the motor.


((boost psi / 14.7) + 1) x motor compression = effective compression

You motor would be running over 17/1 effective compression (under boost). I'm sure there is technology available today to retard the spark, etc. to deal with this, but it just seems awfully close to a diesel, which generally is a lot beefier than even a Studebaker.

Again, I'm sure not an expert and if it can be done, go for it! It would certainly be a powerful motor [:p]

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Guido
07-17-2007, 05:35 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp
((boost psi / 14.7) + 1) x motor compression = effective compression

Dick,

You are getting mighty close to invading my territory! [:0]

Gary (AKA Decimal Dude)

http://thumb14.webshots.net/t/53/453/1/21/36/2964121360097493054pVJTFL_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/57/757/2/88/4/2023288040097493054SEKowB_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/18/19/8/37/21/2050837210097493054IYBJJL_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/59/559/1/43/57/2876143570097493054jKVhDw_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/22/22/0/2/68/2589002680097493054ftBuBw_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/28/28/8/30/30/2075830300097493054aSSlFv_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/59/459/2/23/86/2067223860097493054YoeGMx_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/28/28/5/18/33/2537518330097493054OgEKcN_th.jpg
Guido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful"

Studebaker horse drawn doctor’s buggy; Studebaker horse drawn “Izzer” buggy; 1946 M-16 fire truck; 1948 M-16 grain truck; 1949 2R17A fire truck; 1950 2R5 pickup; 1952 2R17A grain truck; 1952 Packard 200 4 door; 1955 E-38 grain truck; 1957 3E-40 flatbed; 1961 6E-28 grain truck; 1962 7E-13D 4x4 rack truck; 1962 7E-7 Champ pickup; 1962 GT Hawk 4 speed; 1963 8E-28 flatbed; 1964 Avanti R2 4 speed; 1964 Cruiser and various other "treasures" (including a 1959 IH B-120 4 wheel drive and numerous Oliver and Cockshutt tractors).

Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond, Goochland & Louisa, Va.

Dick Steinkamp
07-17-2007, 06:07 PM
quote:Originally posted by Guido

You are getting mighty close to invading my territory! [:0]

Gary (AKA Decimal Dude)



I purposely didn't say 17.17346939/1 in order to not step on your toes.

-Dick-
(former owner of the pistine Hawk)



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

DEEPNHOCK
07-17-2007, 08:54 PM
Anything is possible if you set your mind to it...
You'll need to either make a wacky adapter to get the air into the rear carb, or you'll need to make some offset carb mount plates to move each carb a bit to one side (right for the front and left for the rear). I tried to talk Sonny Josker into this, but he had other ideas[}:)]
Some idea pic's are at:
http://rides.webshots.com/album/263293310NXufNX
Jeff[8D]
http://thumb8.webshots.net/t/30/30/9/92/35/263299235dMRJeB_th.jpg
http://thumb8.webshots.net/t/18/18/9/99/61/263299961eIiPEL_th.jpg
http://thumb8.webshots.net/t/28/28/0/5/49/263300549aocWaE_th.jpg
http://thumb8.webshots.net/t/14/14/9/78/55/263297855vwkDww_th.jpg




quote:Originally posted by JRoberts

My son aquired a really nice old Edmunds dual carb intake a few years ago. His plan was (is?) to put two Stromberg WW's on it and hook these to two Superchargers. His question is will those carbs work with a Studebaker type supercharger (He has been designing a belt driven set up as per Mustangs etc, but for dual superchargers). I think his big question is will they be able to handle the fuel needed for the set up?

This whole set up is for his '58 Silver Hawk that is sitting patiently at my house.

Note that I am not the mechanic here so I may not have worded things just right but he asked me to put this question on the forum and I think I have put the jist of what he wants to know down here.
Thanks for the help,
Joe Roberts

JDP
07-17-2007, 09:00 PM
As to effective compression, Ted Harbit is running boosts in the plus 20 pound range and has not hurt his engine.

JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
59 3E truck
58 Starlight
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander

Karl
07-18-2007, 12:09 AM
I made 15lbs the stock 2" exhaust. 8-9 with 3'' exahust
Put 15 lbs to stock rods.
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/twnchgr/AVANTISTUFF0002.jpgthis will happen.;)
The twin air boxs will have more WOW. But they wil be hard to plumb.unless you know some who can work with your air boxs. The single 4 well be easier.
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/twnchgr/avanti2003updateTwinpower.jpg

63 Twin Supercharged Avanti
64 Avanti R3w/NOS
88LSC Avanti 350 Supercharged w/NOS

PackardV8
07-18-2007, 12:42 AM
Hi, Karl,

Interesting picture. What failed first, bolts or the I-beam? Any idea what RPM was at failure?

FWIW, I have never broken a Stude rod with too much boost below 6,000 RPMS, but have broken way too many NA trying to turn too much over 7,000 RPM.

thnx, jv

PackardV8

Karl
07-18-2007, 02:22 PM
It was a missed 1-2 gear shift at 6000+. With out a Rev-limiter,lol;) The bolts didnt fail on these. Had already fixed that problem. Replaced old bolts with ARP bb ch__y.And your right.All of the failure had been High rpm related. But nothing much above 6500.lol

63 Twin Supercharged Avanti
64 Avanti R3w/NOS
88LSC Avanti 350 Supercharged w/NOS

DEEPNHOCK
07-18-2007, 11:35 PM
Looks like those recent pictures of 35' squid off the Japanese coast.
Few have ever seen such a site, and fewer want to!
jEFF[8D]



quote:Originally posted by Karl

I made 15lbs the stock 2" exhaust. 8-9 with 3'' exahust
Put 15 lbs to stock rods.
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/twnchgr/AVANTISTUFF0002.jpgthis will happen.;)
The twin air boxs will have more WOW. But they wil be hard to plumb.unless you know some who can work with your air boxs. The single 4 well be easier.
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/twnchgr/avanti2003updateTwinpower.jpg

63 Twin Supercharged Avanti
64 Avanti R3w/NOS
88LSC Avanti 350 Supercharged w/NOS

Karl
07-19-2007, 12:33 AM
Some more of its ugly friends...
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/twnchgr/1998-1.jpg
Notice big end of rod and piston side by side. Makes ugly noises when this happens;)

63 Twin Supercharged Avanti
64 Avanti R3w/NOS
88LSC Avanti 350 Supercharged w/NOS

PlainBrownR2
07-19-2007, 03:49 AM
Very few times have I ever seen a what is supposed to be a pretty hard Studebaker camshaft and/or crankshaft disintegrate like that. Even though its some real carnage, in situations like those, you just gotta stand back for a moment and say "Whoaaa, gotta do it again" :).Now I know Karl had to be doing something serious to pull that last picture off.:) [:0)];)
I would probably recommend one big carb than two smaller carbs. Ease of tunability more than anything, because it may take a little bit of time to synchronize dual carbs to run together. I would also consider if the carbs may overrun the engine. You can go too big with carbs. The best one I heard with that was a buddy who wanted dual carbs on a dual carb manifold on an older style Ch*vy. I think it was a 283. Would look cool he said. Well he put it on and the poor car would not run well below 40 mph. After 40 mph of course it ran great. He finally gave up and put a normal single four barrel carb and manifold back on it.


1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
1950 Studebaker 2R5 with 170 turbocharged
[img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00003.jpg?t=1171152673[/img=left]
[img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00009.jpg?t=1171153019[/img=right]
[img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00002.jpg?t=1171153180[/img=left]
[img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00005.jpg?t=1171153370[/img=right]

silverhawk1958
07-19-2007, 03:28 PM
Thanks for all the input guys. I think I will be going with the single 4bbl in a pressure box for ease of tunning and safety.