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gstine
07-15-2007, 01:51 PM
I just received my production order from the National Museum yesterday for my 50 Champion Deluxe Sedan (9G-W3). The primary reason I had requested the PO was to determine the original color(s) of my car; my supposition was that the color and/or trim would be obvious. Unfortunately, the record indicates the paint number, but not the color name. Here is what is on the PO:

Paint No. and Color: P 2263 CON (or is it COM? - it isn't clear)
Trim No: 7484 OG MO-1

I've looked at the 2/01 issue of TW, which featured the specs of the 50 Champ, but no luck. Then I checked the DuPont and Ditzler paint charts, but the numbers don't match. Finally, I noticed that there was a similarity in format with some Rinshed-Mason paint codes that I've found for other Stude years/models. I've even checked under my glovebox for the paint card, but no luck there, either.

The car looks like it was painted (poorly) with some shade of blue at some point, as that the color on the firewall and other areas. Currently, the car is painted with grey primer. My guess for the paint color was Aero Blue until yesterday; my car rolled out of South Bend on 2/10/50 and Aero Blue was introduced 3/1/50. Next best guess could be Concord Blue, but I want to be sure that the blue isn't covering another color before proceeding.

Can anyone help?

Thanks!

Swifster
07-15-2007, 02:39 PM
Well, I struck out with my books. The 'COM' part is interesting. I wonder if this was a custom commercial color for a company car(?). Just guessing. My PO matches the color codes listed in the literature I have so I'd have to assume the information for the '50 would be correct too (no guarantees :)).

A 1950 Champion Deluxe would fall into the realm of a company car, so that's my guess. Does any of this 'cheap' paint fade into another color on the firewall?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Valrico, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/1965_Studebaker_Commander_front198x.jpg

gstine
07-15-2007, 08:26 PM
I'd already checked under the glovebox, but the card/code wasn't present. Based on Tom's input, I also checked around panel seams, under rubber, behind light plates, etc. yielding conflicting results: in some places (behind tail light fixtures), the dark blue appears, in others (behind weather seal rubber around the doors), a 'rust' or copper color shows. The reason I've doubted the blue as the 'true' color is that in some places, like the hood hinges, there is blue overspray onto natural metal on the hinges. However, the more reliable test was when I removed some of the rubber holding one of the windshield windows in place (this is hardened and needs to be replaced anyway, so no harm done), a dark dark blue appears - I think that this may be the original color due to the condition of the windshield rubber. Interestingly, this blue is not the same as that which is found across the rest of the car, including the firewall. Unfortunately, I think that the only way I'm going to be able to solve this mystery will be to determine what color is indicated by "P 2263 CON".

dpson
07-15-2007, 08:45 PM
I checked a copy of the Studebaker 1947 to 1954 factory "Paint Chart" and the paint code on your production order isn't close to any of the passenger car listings for 1950. They all in the 8000 range; for example, 8293 is "Concord Blue body with either Concord Blue or Aero Blue wheels with red pin stripes" and 8303 is "Midnight Blue body with Concord Blue wheels and red pin stripes", etc. What is interesting is the colors for the 2R series trucks are listed by "Combination Numbers" that begin with "P" code. The closest I could find to yours is P-2243; "Midnight Blue body & fenders with Cherokee Red wheels with a Tusk Ivory pin stripe". It has been said that Studebaker would go out of it's way to make a sale and perhaps the buyer wanted a particular color combination that wasn't standard for a passenger car and was allowed to order a truck paint combination.

Dan Peterson
Montpelier, VT
1960 Lark V-8 Convertible
1960 Lark V-8 Convertible (parts car)
1962 Lark V-8 Regal Convertible

bams50
07-15-2007, 08:46 PM
I can offer no help, but I'm rooting for this guy- he sure did his homework trying to figure it out![:0]

Welcome and good luck- with the great folks here I'm sure someone will be able to figure this out!

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

Dwain G.
07-16-2007, 12:14 AM
The "P-2263" sounds very much like the color "combination" numbers they used on the 2R trucks to identify body paint and corresponding wheel color. I don't see 2263 listed, but I do see 2243 which is Midnight Blue with Cherokee Red wheels.
What else does your build order say? Do the numbers match your car?

http://home.comcast.net/~jdwain/63.63.jpg
Dwain G.

gstine
07-16-2007, 01:42 AM
Yes, thank God, all the other numbers match.

gstine
07-16-2007, 02:39 PM
So the paint color remains a mystery - I've now got an inquiry into the National Museum to see if anything turns up there - but does anyone have any ideas on the Trim Number? Again the trim is listed on the PO as:

7484 OG MO-1

Continued thanks to all of you "Stude Sleuths" out there!!

studegary
07-16-2007, 10:27 PM
I believe that you have a car that originally had a commercial paint color. The car was probably either part of a fleet or a special order. I would guess that the build order shows it as being a sold unit, rather than built for stock. I suggest checking with Andy at the SNM and explain your dilemma. He can probably shed light on the paint color and if the car was part of a group of cars or cars & trucks that were painted the same color for a fleet.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)

Swifster
07-16-2007, 10:40 PM
I think it would be extremely interesting to have found a fleet vehicle. Personally, if this were the case I'd also try to find out about the company if possible. I've always found the 'sluething' to be just as interesting as the car and rebuild itself. I hope it was bought by a company that's still in business.

Having been in the insurance claims industry for over 20 years, I've had my share of company cars. With looking at more and more vintage cars, I'm looking at trying to find a vintage 'company car'. The thought was a '59-'64 Lark 4-door in white, blue interior and a 259/automatic power train.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Valrico, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/1965_Studebaker_Commander_front198x.jpg

gstine
07-16-2007, 10:41 PM
I believe Gary is absolutely correct! Taking another look at the build order, the destination is listed as "10 Wahpeton, ND" and there's a sales order number listed. I will follow up with Andy tomorrow. Whatever the outcome of that discussion, I'll close the loop here with everyone afterwards. Thanks!

gstine
07-17-2007, 06:10 PM
UPDATE: I've checked with both DuPont (1-800-3DUPONT) and Sherwin-Williams (1-800-SWULTRA) and neither can find a code close to mine. Their searches also check other likely suppliers, such as Ditzler (now PPG). My only hope now is Andy at the SNM Archives....

52 Ragtop
07-17-2007, 10:02 PM
I just looked at my paint chip "book" (I have most of the paint chips from 1937 up) P-2263 does not show up in my book. BUT, for 1952, P-2364-C shows up as Cuban Red, and P-2367-C is Tahoe Green,

I'm looking at a Ditzler color chart (PPG) and the P-2263-C number "May" be a Ditzler number. I do not have a Ditzler chart for 1950, but P-2438-C is also Tahoe Green but, for 1953 and IS a different shade of green then the 1952 color.
I have a PPG rep that is a friend of mine, I'll call him and see if he can help.

My 1950 and 1951 charts show an Aero Blue, and Maui Blue, but NO Concord Blue, UNTIL I look at the bottom of the 1952 colors, and it lists the Concord Blue P-2363-C for 1949-1951.

I wonder, "if" the 2263 should be a 2363? typo??

The production Order on my 52 ragtop states Built 4-4-32! Talk about ahead of it's time! <G>

Jim


Jim

gstine
07-23-2007, 11:37 AM
The mystery has been solved!

I spent much of the weekend scouring through my back issues of TW (I have '75 forward) with no luck. The only paint codes that match the format of "P 2263" are the combination colors for pickups, as noted previously in this thread.

I took some time to remove the chrome trim from around the grille last night, which revealed a very deep blue - I could see where the lighter blue (Aero Blue or Bahama Mist??) had bled under the trim when it was sprayed at a later date (more evidence of a poor repaint in the fact that chrome pieces were simply painted over, not removed!!!!). Evidence was mounting in support for Concord Blue, Midnight Blue original paint, but I still wondered if I was looking at a potential two-tone scheme.

Finally, I spoke with Andy Beckman at the SNM Archives this morning. He has confirmed that the color of my vehicle was originally CONCORD BLUE! The "P 2263" portion is the 'internal Studebaker paint code' - apparently all of which start with "P 2..." - and the "CON" is the abbreviated name for the color. There were no two-tones produced in '50. The internal color code for Concord Blue is P-2363-C, so the prize for best guess goes to Jim for suggesting that my PO contains a typo.

Incidentally, I asked Andy if there was a resource available that listed all of the internal codes, etc. He stated that SNM is working on an 'information packet' that will serve as a one stop shop for historical data. He didn't elaborate, so I don't know if this project will be all encompassing - all models/years - or if info packets will made available for each model or year. In any case, look for that in the coming months or next couple of years.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread to help me out!! Now, I'm off to the paint store.....

studegary
07-23-2007, 02:13 PM
I am glad that you have a solution/answer. I thought that Andy would be able to help you out. He is a good guy, but I am sure that he can't handle many requests like this. Of course you did the correct thing in ordering the build sheet before asking questions.

Did Studebaker make the typo or is that a transcription typo by the SNM? If it is an SNM error, they should provide you with a correct build sheet. I think that in some cases they photocopy the Studebaker sheet and in other cases the information is re-typed.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)

gstine
07-23-2007, 07:47 PM
The PO was a copy transferred from the microfiche record, so it was a 57-year-old mistake (how's that for folks that think mistakes made on the job today will never surface?). Andy suggested that since '50 was the largest production year, and the Champion was the most produced vehicle for Studebaker that year, it is common to find typos on PO's for that model year Champ.

With regards to Andy's ability to field all of the questions we may have for him, he was very kind and gracious in taking my call. Again, he's hoping that the information pack that he and the rest of the SNM staff are working on will be able to answer many of the questions like mine in the future. In the meantime, it is good to remember that it's always possible to travel to South Bend to do research yourself for a $25 research fee. I was ready to do this in the case that Andy didn't have the answer readily available. Given the help that Andy provided this morning, I may still do that simply to thank him in person!

Greg
Wildwood, MO
1950 Champion Deluxe

52 Ragtop
07-23-2007, 11:01 PM
I just got lucky on guessing it was a typo error! <G> But, remember my 52 ragtop was built 4-4-32!
Andy has helped me a few times on some "progects" especially when I was looking into doing the finned brake drums, he IS a great guy!

Jim