Brakes: 50 Champion Front Disks

[Stratohammer]

Just finished the caliper and rotor installation today. I modified the bracket from a kit for a later model and it all fit up really nice. It will still be a couple months before this thing hits the road. I am replacing the master cylinder with a Wilwood tandem cylinder unit with remote reservoirs. I'll end up with a more modern split system and it will be easier to keep an eye on the fluid level.

I'm still thinking about what to do with the rear brakes. I'd like to just retain the intent of the current setup, which is 9X2 drums with 5 lug hubs. The problem is that one drum assy fits properly and one doesn't. If someone can identify what the heck these parts are, I'd appreciate it. Hint: I really just care about the right rear drum. The left side is the one that doesn't fit. These brakes have the earlier self-adjusting mechanism with a plug that sticks through the shoe.

If anyone is interested in all the parts that came off the front, I'll gladly box them up and send them to the first person who raises their hand, yells "Me!" and pays the freight. I haven't measured anything, but the drums look decent, the shoes still have some meat on them and all the parts appear to be present and accounted for. The wheel cylinders are a bit past the sketchy point, though.

Mike

[1962larksedan]

Are you sure your Champion is indeed a 1950 model? Why I ask is that year and model used 4 lug wheels and you car is evidently a 1951 or later 5 lugger with coil springs.

[Edsel G. Tattooer]

What model Wilwood tandem cylinder unit with remote reservoirs are you using I would like to looking to doing the same thing On my car. Pm me if you wish.

[rusty nut garage]

your brake bias front to rear is going to be real intresting. The early brakes were non self engergizing. If it were me I'd go to the trouble of upgrading the rear to 54 later V-8 brakes

Just finished the caliper and rotor installation today. I modified the bracket from a kit for a later model and it all fit up really nice. It will still be a couple months before this thing hits the road. I am replacing the master cylinder with a Wilwood tandem cylinder unit with remote reservoirs. I'll end up with a more modern split system and it will be easier to keep an eye on the fluid level.

I'm still thinking about what to do with the rear brakes. I'd like to just retain the intent of the current setup, which is 9X2 drums with 5 lug hubs. The problem is that one drum assy fits properly and one doesn't. If someone can identify what the heck these parts are, I'd appreciate it. Hint: I really just care about the right rear drum. The left side is the one that doesn't fit. These brakes have the earlier self-adjusting mechanism with a plug that sticks through the shoe.

If anyone is interested in all the parts that came off the front, I'll gladly box them up and send them to the first person who raises their hand, yells "Me!" and pays the freight. I haven't measured anything, but the drums look decent, the shoes still have some meat on them and all the parts appear to be present and accounted for. The wheel cylinders are a bit past the sketchy point, though.

Mike

[royvaldez]

Can you share the details on your build.

[Stratohammer]

1962 - Your question drove me to check the S/N and it is in the 1950 range. The front axle nuts had been modified with a deeper cotter key slot to accommodate the hubs. I don't quite understand the setup in the rear, though. It's my understanding that the axles on cars with 4 lug hubs have a smaller taper than those with 5 lug hubs. Both axles on this car have the same size taper, about 0.922" at the small end. One of the drums fits properly and the other doesn't.

Edsel - The master cylinder is Wilwood P/N 260-7563.

Rusty - Excellent point. I'm still in head-scratching mode on this part of the project.

Roy - Check for a PM

Mike

[ROADRACELARK]

Another option, instead of "filing the cotter key slots" deeper, just add another flat washer, problem solved.

Dan Miller
Auburn, GA

[Stratohammer]

Dan,

With the rotors installed, the nut now fits as originally intended. I suppose that whoever installed the 5 lug hubs modified the nuts since the later hub is a little longer. Now I'm on the hunt for some unsullied nuts.

Mike

[RadioRoy]

Rusty's comments has me thinking - maybe a dangerous thing to do, but here goes.

Since the disc brake fronts require much more hydraulic pressure than the old drums used to, it seems to me that the rear drum brakes you use should be the older, NON self-energizing types from 51-53.

I'm thinking that, if self energizing rears from 54 and up are used in the rear, then the rears will be applied much more forcefully than the new disk brake fronts with the same hydraulic pressure.

You may have to install a proportioning valve, no matter what rears you use.

[rusty nut garage]

Could be, the studebaker factory disc equipped cars used a non self energizing in the rear. However they were the 11x2 1/4. The self energizing is a far superior brake regardless of pressure needed etc. Brake reengineerins is a slippery slope that we hobbyist undertake. One has his work cut out for him to make them work correctly.

Rusty's comments has me thinking - maybe a dangerous thing to do, but here goes.

Since the disc brake fronts require much more hydraulic pressure than the old drums used to, it seems to me that the rear drum brakes you use should be the older, NON self-energizing types from 51-53.

I'm thinking that, if self energizing rears from 54 and up are used in the rear, then the rears will be applied much more forcefully than the new disk brake fronts with the same hydraulic pressure.

You may have to install a proportioning valve, no matter what rears you use.

[ROADRACELARK]

Mike,

Manual proportioning valves are readily available. I installed one on the race car to allow me to "dial on or off" rear brakes as needed as the brakes get hot. Granted, you won't encounter the heat conditions I did, but with passengers, items in the trunk, will require you to have "more rear brake" than an empty car. Easily installed and made accessible to adjust. Hope this helps.

Dan Miller
Auburn, GA

[Stratohammer]

Roy and Rusty -

Good points. Self energizing brakes have been the standard for a long time now, whether at all four corners or just in back. It's interesting to me to learn that Studebaker used non-self energizing in conjunction with front disks. I assume this was early in the process of incorporating disk brakes. Am I correct in this assumption?

Rusty, your point about taking on the engineering responsibility as a hobbyist is sage advice and well taken. In my youth, I knew that I could design about anything I worked on to operate better and be more reliable. While in some cases I was right, in many others I was way off. I've learned that humility is a graceful trait, and that brash assurance in one's ability to always do everything right (and the best way) is turf that belongs to the uninitiated.

This car is my youngest daughter's first and she won't be set loose in it unless I am very happy with the brakes. I'm considering three rear brake configurations - the original 9X2 setup, later self energizing drums (Studebaker or otherwise), or a disk setup. I've decided to add a booster, regardless of final configuration. A proportioning valve has always been part of the plan.

Mike

[Stratohammer]

Thanks, Dan!

[1962larksedan]

1962 - Your question drove me to check the S/N and it is in the 1950 range. The front axle nuts had been modified with a deeper cotter key slot to accommodate the hubs. I don't quite understand the setup in the rear, though. It's my understanding that the axles on cars with 4 lug hubs have a smaller taper than those with 5 lug hubs. Both axles on this car have the same size taper, about 0.922" at the small end. One of the drums fits properly and the other doesn't.

Edsel - The master cylinder is Wilwood P/N 260-7563.

Rusty - Excellent point. I'm still in head-scratching mode on this part of the project.

Roy - Check for a PM

Mike

Maybe someone in the past swapped in a 1951+ rear end? What you described concerning the front spindle nuts would explain the 5 lug hubs on a 1950 Champion.

[deco_droid]

Roy and Rusty -

Good points. Self energizing brakes have been the standard for a long time now, whether at all four corners or just in back. It's interesting to me to learn that Studebaker used non-self energizing in conjunction with front disks. I assume this was early in the process of incorporating disk brakes. Am I correct in this assumption?

Rusty, your point about taking on the engineering responsibility as a hobbyist is sage advice and well taken. In my youth, I knew that I could design about anything I worked on to operate better and be more reliable. While in some cases I was right, in many others I was way off. I've learned that humility is a graceful trait, and that brash assurance in one's ability to always do everything right (and the best way) is turf that belongs to the uninitiated.

This car is my youngest daughter's first and she won't be set loose in it unless I am very happy with the brakes. I'm considering three rear brake configurations - the original 9X2 setup, later self energizing drums (Studebaker or otherwise), or a disk setup. I've decided to add a booster, regardless of final configuration. A proportioning valve has always been part of the plan.

Mike

Wow! What a cool first car. I hope your daughter appreciates it!