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65cruiser
09-13-2006, 08:08 AM
For the last week or so, my ammeter has been doing a strange dance in the mornings. It'll jump from charge (first tic), to discharge (first tic). Also, the lights seems to be brighter, then dimmer[}:)]. It'll really do it bad when I first start out in the morning and becomes less noticable when I'm on the interstate. It'll finally settle down to the middle of the gauge or slightly on charge. It's much less noticable in the daytime when the headlights are off.

It's a 65 Cruiser with the 194 six. Within the last 6 months I've replaced both the alternator and the voltage regulator.

Is this a bad voltage regulator? I've checked all the connections and all are tight. I still have my old regulator and it was okay when I removed it, I just replaced it when I replaced the alternator.

________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/smstude.jpg

CHAMP
09-13-2006, 08:45 AM
Did you check the wires going to your ampmeter? It they are ok I would try the old regulator.

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

showbizkid
09-14-2006, 12:14 AM
If it was just the headlights, I'd finger the regulator, but the charge/discharge oscillation sure sounds like classic symptoms of an alternator going south. :(


[img=left]http://members.cox.net/clarknovak/lark.gif[/img=left]

Clark in San Diego
'63 Lark Standard
http://studeblogger.blogspot.com

65cruiser
09-14-2006, 07:04 AM
It's definitely worse with the headlights on, but of course that's the biggest drain. I don't notice the needed jiggling in the daytime.

I just replaced the alternator 6 months ago--sure hope it's not that again[}:)]


quote:Originally posted by showbizkid

If it was just the headlights, I'd finger the regulator, but the charge/discharge oscillation sure sounds like classic symptoms of an alternator going south. :(


[img=left]http://members.cox.net/clarknovak/lark.gif[/img=left]

Clark in San Diego
'63 Lark Standard
http://studeblogger.blogspot.com


________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/smstude.jpg

Scott
09-14-2006, 10:29 AM
I had something similar happen in my '64 Daytona when the lights were on, but I never really figured out what the issue was. My '66 Cruiser began having some erratic ammeter readings and I found two things going on. The first was that one of the wire connectors to the voltage regulator had so much metal fatigue that is was cracked and when I just moved it a little to inspect the wiring it broke right off! Fixing that helped some, but I also found that I had no ground wire hooked up to the alternator. It still worked, but I guess it wasn't really hooked up completely. Once that wire was re-attached to the alternator my ammeter acted normally with no more sudden jumps either way. I hope that helps.

65cruiser
09-14-2006, 11:11 AM
Thanks. I'm going to go over all the wiring thoroughly this afternoon again.


quote:Originally posted by Scott

I had something similar happen in my '64 Daytona when the lights were on, but I never really figured out what the issue was. My '66 Cruiser began having some erratic ammeter readings and I found two things going on. The first was that one of the wire connectors to the voltage regulator had so much metal fatigue that is was cracked and when I just moved it a little to inspect the wiring it broke right off! Fixing that helped some, but I also found that I had no ground wire hooked up to the alternator. It still worked, but I guess it wasn't really hooked up completely. Once that wire was re-attached to the alternator my ammeter acted normally with no more sudden jumps either way. I hope that helps.


________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/smstude.jpg

65cruiser
09-15-2006, 07:57 AM
Last night, I re-cleaned all the connections and made sure everything was tight. This morning the "dance" was over. Call it dumb luck, but I never really found anything wrong--which I don't like. None of the connections were dirty, I keep the underhood area spotless.

Anyway, I guess I'm good at this point. Thanks for all the tips![:o)]

________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/smstude.jpg

Scott
09-15-2006, 10:10 AM
Those electrical issues are always maddening. I'm glad you took the time to start with the simple things like connections first before going overboard. It's REALLY easy to get get sucked into doing all sorts of expensive things that weren't really needed.

65cruiser
09-15-2006, 02:42 PM
Yes, but what concerns me is that I already did that once[}:)]. GOKs what I missed the first time.


quote:Originally posted by Scott

Those electrical issues are always maddening. I'm glad you took the time to start with the simple things like connections first before going overboard. It's REALLY easy to get get sucked into doing all sorts of expensive things that weren't really needed.


________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/smstude.jpg

Scott
09-15-2006, 04:11 PM
It's also possible that while you were cleaning tings you bumped a wire with an intermittent ground or short and temporarily fixed the problem. Of course THAT thought won't make you sleep better at night! Sorry...

rockne10
09-15-2006, 09:52 PM
97.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot so, for what it's worth, 90% of electrical problems can be attributed to bad grounds and will often only require tightening the elusive screw or nut. Clean, tight connections are our friends.

Brad Johnson
Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
33 Rockne 10
51 Commander Starlight
53 Commander Starlight
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/rockne10/51x2.jpg
previously: 63 Cruiser, 62 Regal VI, 60 VI convertible, 50 LandCruiser

65cruiser
12-06-2006, 08:42 AM
The problem returned[}:)]. I've again checked all the connections, but this time the symptons are a bit different. In the morning when driving with the lights on the ammeter stays about center or just left of center (discharge). However when I stop for a traffic light, it's definitely on the discharge side. Once the engine speed increases, the needle comes up. In the afternoon driving with no lights, it's slightly to the right of center so it appears to be charging.

It's as if the alternator is charging, just not enough[}:)]. Also, once or twice, I've seen the lights go bright and the needle jump far right (like a really fast charge--but only happens for a minute.

Alternator (again)?[}:)][B)][8]:(:(

________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/smstude.jpg

55pres
12-06-2006, 09:11 AM
I think it might be helpful if you can get some voltage readings out of it and see what it is really doing.

1955 President

Location: Central PA
Job: Student @ Penn State
Love of Studebakers?: High

showbizkid
12-06-2006, 04:39 PM
Where exactly do you place that breaker, Mike? And what value?


[img=left]http://members.cox.net/clarknovak/lark.gif[/img=left]

Clark in San Diego
'63 F2/Lark Standard
http://studeblogger.blogspot.com

65cruiser
12-06-2006, 04:45 PM
Tell me about this regulator.


quote:Originally posted by hotwheels63r2

When a 63-66 does this expect a meltdown. I'd pull that off of there faster than you could say rebuild.

A good rebuild and electronic voltage regulator will fix it. Sounds like the points are sticking in the regulator, or the windings are crossed causing 'max output' .
If left unchecked plan on replacing them anyway along with a wire harness if it decides it wants to 'peg'.. I add a breaker in line to protect the wire harness in my cars. If the meter is more on the NEG side, you have lost more than 1 diode.

Sometimes the electronic regulator will fix it all. No points to 'stick' A less than 20 dollar fix and in stock.


________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/smstude.jpg

John Kirchhoff
12-06-2006, 05:01 PM
First make sure the fan belt is tight and not worn real narrow. The second thing I'd do would be to put the old regulator on. If it still acts strange, that rules out the regulator.

I don't know how "rebuilt" the alternator was, but to me it sounds like worn brushes are a possibility. If the rebuild was done right, they should have been replaced but who knows. If it's the brushes, eventually it won't charge at all but occasionally will do as it's supposed to, usually full tilt momentarily since the battery's run down but then will cut out. Sometimes when it's not charging you can thump the alternator with a wrench or hammer (not like you're trying to kill it though) and it'll charge for a bit. The shock helps the brushes make contact with the rotor.

If you happen to have a volt meter, see what the voltage is when it's charging. If it never gets above about 11.5 volts, it's likely a diode on one of the windings. Even better would be to run a jumper wire from the positive post of the battery (or other hot connection) to the field connection, the one the regulator goes to. It also should have a "F" nearby. Make sure to not touch the hot wire to the alternator case because you'll make a startling spark. With the jumper wire in place and at a fast idle, it should charge 13-15 volts and at a higher engine speed probably 15-18 volts. When you touch the jumper wire to the field connection (or vice versa), you should be able to hear the engine slow down a bit and or the belt go so squeaking some since the load has increased. If you can't get anymore than say 11.5-12 volts regardless of engine speed, it's likely a diode. 12-13 volts and the brushes may not be making firm contact. 15-18 and the alternator is fine. If all that checks out good, I'd go back to looking for a bad connection, broken wire, etc.

65cruiser
12-06-2006, 05:34 PM
John,

Thanks for all that info. I'll check it out and get back.

________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/smstude.jpg

tstclr
12-06-2006, 09:17 PM
Kudo's to John and 63R2 (sorry, don't know your name) for the excellent diagnostic posts! I'm going to do some of these tests on my 64 as my headlights flicker quite a bit at idle.
Speaking of good posts, I have a handy .txt file called "studebakernotes". I cut and paste these handy tips to have as future reference.
Todd


63 Lark 2dr Sedan
64 Daytona 4dr Sedan

John Kirchhoff
12-06-2006, 09:40 PM
I forgot to tell you earlier, but when you run the jumper to the field connection, the ammeter should show full tilt charge, or at least as high as it ever gets.

If you want to install a circuit breaker or fuse to protect the wiring system in case of a shorted out generator or alternator, you need to put it in the heavy output wire as close to the alternator as possible. Since the Prestolites were good for only 40 amps or so, a 45 amp breaker as suggested by hotwheels would be sufficient to handle the maximum output of the alternator. I think such a fuse is actually more appropriate for a generator system instead of an alternator. If the output diodes on an alternator fizzle out, you find out the next morning when your battery is dead after all the juice drained to the ground through the alternator (it will be undamaged otherwise i.e, no meltdowns). Fried stators normally don't short to the ground either, which is about the only way you're going to melt your wiring. In fact I just replaced one last week, she was pretty toasty but I'd run the tractor for about a month a before I got time to rebuild it. Stuck points on a generator will definately melt the wiring and start a fire. Been there, done that several times. The problem with putting such a safety device on the firewall or under the dash is there's still plenty of wire between there and the generator or regulator. If the generator shorts out or the points stick, the portion of the wiring harness between the breaker and the short can still melt itself before the breaker trips. If you've ever poured a stream of gasoline on the ground and then lit one end and watched it travel the whole length, that's exactly how shorted wiring systems burn up.

I think having another breaker close to the hot side of the solenoid is a good idea, but I think 70 amps is too far big. Should a short develop say, under the dash, every wire between there and the breaker would be melted and on fire before the breaker tripped. Once the fire's going, a tripped breaker doesn't stop the fire. I added up the electrical load and if you had every single light on, radio, cigarette lighter, heater and defrost fan, ignition, you name it, I think you'd be hard pressed to use 40 amps. Figure 10% above that and the 45 amp would be more than adequate. Better yet would be to have the one big breaker and then all other systems on their own fuse like modern cars.

If it is the alternator with the problems, instead of paying someone big bucks to rebuild it again, holler and I can explain how to test and replace diodes, brushes and so on. It's really quite easy, if I can do it, any one can.

John Kirchhoff
12-06-2006, 11:11 PM
Ouch! hotwheels, sounds like you've had a few mishaps also. Once had the points stick in a voltage regulator that had the polarity reversed shortly before we bought the tractor. After the engine was shut off, the juice ran back to the generator and tried to turn it into an electric motor. The problem was the fan belt kept the generator from rotating and suddenly there was white smoke and flames everywhere. That got the entire wiring harness and armature but fortunately I got the battery cable off before the whole works went up in flames. Had it had your circuit breaker, the damage probably wouldn't have been nearly as bad. Great idea you have there.

showbizkid
12-07-2006, 08:38 AM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

If it is the alternator with the problems, instead of paying someone big bucks to rebuild it again, holler and I can explain how to test and replace diodes, brushes and so on. It's really quite easy, if I can do it, any one can.


John, I'd love to hear this. The Prestolite alternator from my Lark looks a little crusty, and I'd like to rebuild it for safety's sake before my engine goes back in.


[img=left]http://members.cox.net/clarknovak/lark.gif[/img=left]

Clark in San Diego
'63 F2/Lark Standard
http://studeblogger.blogspot.com

John Kirchhoff
12-07-2006, 02:16 PM
Since hotwheels has the basic repair parts, there's really no reason anyone with a couple of wrenches and screwdrivers can't repair their alternator. If it needs any parts beyond what hotwheels has, you're probably better off tossing the thing and either getting a different one or adapting a different brand to do the job.

I'll try to get something on here shortly covering the basics. hotwheels seems very knowledgable, so between him and me, we should be able to help just about anyone out there. A few weeks ago I added a tachometer terminal to a Prestolite for alternator driven tachs and will be doing the same to a Delco for my tractor as soon as the weather warms a bit and the snow melts. So we can also help modernize old alternators if needed.

studeclunker
12-08-2006, 04:29 AM
If I might be so bold as to suggest, checking your lighting wires where they pass through the front mask?

Start at the wiring harness plug. check where they exit the engine compartment, in fact, unplug them and check to see if the wire is cracked,or missing insulation anywhere. It's easier to check this with it unplugged. A small flat-head screwdriver can help with a stubborn plug. The point where the wire exits the engine compartment can be a major wear point. Especially if the rubber plugs (grommets?) that the wire passes through the body are worn out or missing.

The reason I suggest this, is that I've been there.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpghttp://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/red54wagon-1.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

John Kirchhoff
12-10-2006, 02:36 PM
Clark said something about wanting to do what sounds like a little preventive maintenence on his alternator. Jeeze Clark, I thought you were supposed to run'em until they either quit charging or locked up and left you stranded in the middle of nowhere.

Well here goes for doing a little "fix it before it busts" that shouldn't take much more than an hour. Most externally regulated (the oldies) alternators are overhauled or traded in because of worn brushes or junked because of bad bearings. Shorted windings and bad diodes do happen, but actually not that frequently. I've had a few over the years, but out of maybe six I think, one was a bad diode on a pickup truck, four were diodes and one winding on combines and one winding on a traactor. I believe the main cause of the farm equipment failures was overheating since a lot of trash (leaves, dust, ect) get sucked into the back and reduce the air flow. Fortunately that's not as big a deal on autos although enough dirt and oil fumes could cut the air flow some.

Prestolites aren't as easy to overhaul as a Delco, but it's still no big deal. Get the pully in a vice and remove the 15/16" nut and washer. The pulley and fan are keyed on and it might or might not require a puller to get off depending upon how much exposure to the weather it's had. Keep track of the order of spacers, fan, pulley offset, etc during disassembly. Remove the four little bolts and pull the two halves apart, it may require alternately tapping the mounting lugs. The front half will probably come off with the shaft and rotor sticking to it and the back half will have the field coil sticking to it. Before coming apart, the field coil is identified as the narrow piece of iron between the aluminum front and rear outer shells. If for some reason the field coil wants to come with the front half, you'll need to break it loose from the front half with a little chisel or such. If you keep on pulling and you'll damage the wires from the field coil to the diodes in the rear half. Pull the two halves apart vertically and keep the bottom half on the bottom. There's two little coil springs behind the brushes that can fall out if your're not careful. The brushes are the two little rectangle shaped pieces of carbon attached to a little copper wire. New they're something like a half inch long and if the old ones are around 1/4", they need to be replaced. To replace them, you'll need to cut the old brushes off and solder the new ones to the wires that are left. It's a good idea to clamp a small pair of vice grips to the old wire to not only hold it in place, but to keep the soldering iron heat from going places you don't want it to. I'd rather have the new brush wires longer than orginal for ease of soldering, just be sure to tuck them out of the way when you reassemble the alternator. Don't let the field one touch other metal though. In the back of the rear shell there's a little needle bearing that's probably pretty dry looking. If the alternator's really cruddy inside when you take the two halves apart, stick a little piece of shop towel into the bearing and clean the dirt out with a stiff parts cleaning brush (careful of the brushes) and blow it out. I like to use carb cleaner to wash dirt and old grease out of the bearing. After ir dries, grease the bearing. The front half will have a ball bearing and is under considerably more stress since that's the end that takes much of the load from the belt tension. If the shaft doesn't come out of the bearing, tap the threaded end of the shaft with a PLASTIC hammer, nothing else! Anything else, even a brass hammer and you'll barf up the threads. If that doesn't work, use a small puller and hook the arms to the inside area near the bearing, not the outside of the housing. You can always slip a small nut between the end of the puller shaft and the rotor shaft to keep the point from gouging the rotor shaft. Remove the three little screws and plate to expose the inside of the bearing. Clean it out and regrease it also. You can smear the grease

65cruiser
12-11-2006, 05:37 PM
Okay, I've had some time to play with this. First I checked the fan belt--it's good and not too much play.

Then I checked voltage on the battery. It's right around 12 volts with the engine not running. I started the engine and I'm seeing between 13-15 volts. But, it doesn't make any difference how fast the engine is running. I put the jumper on the F terminal of the regulator and it made no difference whatsoever. The ammeter does show a charge and the faster the engine, the more the needle moves to the + side. However, turn on the headlights and it goes to discharge.

Then, I put the old regulator on. Now there's no charging whatsoever. That regulator went in the trash bin.

So, if I've deduced this correctly, it appears my alternator is charging, just not enough?

Here's my ammeter when the car running at around 1500 rpm, with no load on the alternator:

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/amp1.JPG

Here's the ammeter with the headlights on around 1500 rpm:

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/amp2.JPG

Now, here's the ammeter at idle, headlights on:

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/amp3.JPG

In situation #3, the turn signals barely operate. Obviously it's worse if the windshield wipers or heater blower are running.

Bad alternator?


quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

First make sure the fan belt is tight and not worn real narrow. The second thing I'd do would be to put the old regulator on. If it still acts strange, that rules out the regulator.

I don't know how "rebuilt" the alternator was, but to me it sounds like worn brushes are a possibility. If the rebuild was done right, they should have been replaced but who knows. If it's the brushes, eventually it won't charge at all but occasionally will do as it's supposed to, usually full tilt momentarily since the battery's run down but then will cut out. Sometimes when it's not charging you can thump the alternator with a wrench or hammer (not like you're trying to kill it though) and it'll charge for a bit. The shock helps the brushes make contact with the rotor.

If you happen to have a volt meter, see what the voltage is when it's charging. If it never gets above about 11.5 volts, it's likely a diode on one of the windings. Even better would be to run a jumper wire from the positive post of the battery (or other hot connection) to the field connection, the one the regulator goes to. It also should have a "F" nearby. Make sure to not touch the hot wire to the alternator case because you'll make a startling spark. With the jumper wire in place and at a fast idle, it should charge 13-15 volts and at a higher engine speed probably 15-18 volts. When you touch the jumper wire to the field connection (or vice versa), you should be able to hear the engine slow down a bit and or the belt go so squeaking some since the load has increased. If you can't get anymore than say 11.5-12 volts regardless of engine speed, it's likely a diode. 12-13 volts and the brushes may not be making firm contact. 15-18 and the alternator is fine. If all that checks out good, I'd go back to looking for a bad connection, broken wire, etc.




________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/smstude.jpg

John Kirchhoff
12-11-2006, 09:59 PM
Ammeter needles can sometimes set a little cocked which makes things look odd sometimes. Since the voltage stays between 13-15 volts regardless of the engine speed, it sounds like the regulator is doing it's job. You said the jumper made no difference and at an idle that would be expected. You also say the needle goes to discharge with the lights on, is this with the jumper on or not? With the jumper on and a moderate engine speed, the ammeter shouldn't show discharge. The description you give on the third scenario with the direction lights barely blinking sounds more characteristic of a generator rather than an alternator. If it were mine, I'd suspect the brushes are worn. As they wear, the spring tension keeping them in contact with the slip rings becomes less. I've found that under a light load, the brushes will make good enough contact to keep up with demand. However, when you throw a big load at it, the spring tension is insufficient to keep the brushes making good contact. If you take the alternator apart to take a look at things, see how clean the slip rings are and the length of the brushes. If you aren't sure of their state of wear, one thing you can do is take the little coil springs behind them and stretch them out longer which will make them put more pressure on the slip rings. I'd measure them first and them stretch them out 1/4-3/8" longer. Put it back together (after greasing the bearings if needed) and see if that makes any difference. If it does, you know its the brushes. If that helps, you can replace them whenever you get around to it because they'll run that way for a good while. New brushes come with new springs, so don't worry about ruining the old ones by stretching them out. If stretching the springs out don't seem to help, it might be time to get an ammeter that's actually graduated in numbers. They make ones that have the dial on front and a U shaped trough on the back that you just lay against the big wire coming from the alternator. Put the jumper on it then and it should show around 40 amps, in fact I was fiddling with a Prestolite tonight on a test bed I made using it to test an electronic tach. I checked the amperage and it showed a full 40 amps when I used the old jumper trick and that was at a rpm that would be equal to 650-700 engine rpm. Good luck and don't be afraid to holler again. Oh, the photos were a great idea!

65cruiser
12-12-2006, 08:45 AM
John,

Thanks for all the info. I think I'm going to remove the alternator and have it rebuilt. I'm just not that comfortable opening that thing up and watching springs and brushes fly off into the dark reaches of my garage.[}:)] Besides, they'd probably go where there are spiders, cause if I was a spider that's where I'd be[xx(].

________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/smstude.jpg

John Kirchhoff
12-12-2006, 12:37 PM
Actually those springs won't go flying off because you can't pull the rotor out of shell quick enough for that to happen. By the time you get the rotor out, they'll in all likelyhood still be in the brush holder peeking out. The brushes will be out but they won't go anywhere because the wires hold them there. The only way you'll loose the springs is to hold the thing upside down and remove the rotor from the bottom while you dance a jig. If you can do that, you need to sell the Stude and join the circus. People would pay good money to see someone do that!

65cruiser
01-12-2007, 11:00 AM
Last night, I pulled the alternator out of the Cruiser and took it to a rebuild shop that I know does quality work. He bench tested it and verified the alternator was shot. He said it'll be a few days, but should be good as new.:D

While pulling the alternator, I noticed the radiator was leaking[}:)][xx(][V][V]:(. So, off it came and I wisked it off to the radiator shop this morning.

I like this radiator shop. It's Todd's Radiator in Louisville. When I walked into the shop with the radiator, he said "that looks like an old Studebaker radiator".:)

He's got my business.;)

________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/smstude.jpg

65cruiser
01-17-2007, 07:16 PM
Today, I received my rebuilt alternator. Cost $62.50 and I have my original alternator back. I repainted my repaired radiator (it had a small leak on the tank - cost $30.00). Installed the new alternator, new fan belt, then installed the radiator and started her up. No more dancing ammeter!:D:D:D:D Lights are brighter than before also.

Flushed the radiator, then refilled with antifreeze and took her for a spin. She's PERFECTO[:p]!

________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/smstude.jpg

Dick Steinkamp
01-17-2007, 07:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by 65cruiser
She's PERFECTO[:p]!


Congrats, Mark! Don't you just love it when a plan comes together [8D]



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

65cruiser
01-17-2007, 07:42 PM
Why yes I do and ain't she sweet!:)


quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp


quote:Originally posted by 65cruiser
She's PERFECTO[:p]!


Congrats, Mark! Don't you just love it when a plan comes together [8D]



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg



________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/smstude.jpg