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lube_sales
07-12-2007, 04:49 PM
I just purchased an Avanti from a nice old gent who told me the car was as good mechically as it is body wise. Well it seems he never drove it and just worked on the body, excellent job by the way.
The engine has been a night mare and I am at my wits end.
Here is what it is doing: It started out bucking when I was driving both on excereation and at constant speed. Now it is sputtering and losing power after it gets hot, to the point that after a half hour I car barely moves, as if it was flooding on starving for fuel, not sure which.

This is what I have done so far, Replaced the wrong fuel pump with an R2 pump from Stude Intern. The car had a smaller pump with an elec pump backing it up(now by passed) All fuel lines now 3/8 not 5/16 as last 1 was reduced too. The tank return line was not retricted and now is, homemade 40 thou restriction. Purchased a new electronic distr from Dave Thibault and installed. Carb was taken apart and proper R2 jets installed and 1 odd float replaced with proper float, other float was original. Grey smoke comes out of the exhaust.
Love the car hate the problems, we only have a few months of great weather and I am missing it.

Lost and frustrated
Ted

JDP
07-12-2007, 05:16 PM
Sounds like a head gasket, or cracked head or block. Are you losing any coolant ?

JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
59 3E truck
58 Starlight
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander

GTtim
07-12-2007, 05:31 PM
Are we talking clouds of smoke or a little bit? Have you checked the timing? Compression? Is the heat riser working properly, not installed backwards? When you say proper R2 jets were installed, was this done by someone familiar with sealed AFB carbs?

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

lube_sales
07-12-2007, 06:25 PM
The Jets were installed by a gent here with an R2 and they matched the Avanti parts book numbers. As for the timing yes it has been checked and set, no comprssion test done as yet. Smoke more than a little bit, not losing coolant, temp runs at 180 even. Not sure about heat riser.



quote:Originally posted by GTtim

Are we talking clouds of smoke or a little bit? Have you checked the timing? Compression? Is the heat riser working properly, not installed backwards? When you say proper R2 jets were installed, was this done by someone familiar with sealed AFB carbs?

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

lube_sales
07-12-2007, 06:46 PM
I just checked and the coolant is low, filled top resevoir but will not be able to tell if the level drops until I run it again.


quote:Originally posted by JDP

Sounds like a head gasket, or cracked head or block. Are you losing any coolant ?

JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
59 3E truck
58 Starlight
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander

bige
07-12-2007, 07:38 PM
Did you replace points and condenser? Also, does it have the later style R2 air cleaner housing with the rectangular opening? if so, if your car has an underhood pad it could be choking the air flow if it is a little loose and gets sucked into the air opening.

Ernie R

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg

whacker
07-12-2007, 08:20 PM
White smoke is almost always coolant. Pull the spark plugs one at a time and look at the end. If one of them is wet, and cleaner than the others, that cylinder has a leak from the coolant somewhere. If two adjacent plugs are in that condition, you most likely have a head gasket blown between them, or a cracked head. A compression check would be the next step, the actual pressure isn't that important, as long as the numbers are within 10%-15% of each other. If one or two of them are lower by more than that, those are probably your problem cylinders. Don't run it in this condition, you will only make it worse. Drain your oil and see if it has a milky look to it. Most anything but a cracked block can be fixed, a cracked block can be fixed also, but it is still easier to replace it. SASCO has NOS heads, head gaskets and other engine gaskets are cheap and available.

bige
07-12-2007, 08:31 PM
I didn't catch the electronic distributor... but even though leaking coolant will cause a lot of smoke and isn't a good condition to drive with I've never see it cause a car to die unless the car is getting so hot that the motor is on the verge of seizing. A crack or a bad head gasket usually effects no more than two cylinders. Bad idle, poor acceleration but bucking to the point of not moving?

Is the blower on the car?

ErnieR

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg

JDP
07-12-2007, 09:09 PM
Could be hydraulic lock or simply superheated steam causing the misfire.

JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
59 3E truck
58 Starlight
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander

lube_sales
07-12-2007, 09:28 PM
I pulled the plugs and changed them, they were all wet and black, put in new ones and did not make a difference. My wife who followed me home yesterday after the work was done, told me white smoke but today when I ask her she tells me the smoke was more dark gray and mostly out of the drivers side. I do have a manifold leak on the drivers side.There is no coolant in the oil, but the oil is turning dark very quickly, I believe it is fuel contaminated.
Please keep the thoughts and questions coming, it is really helping me work throught this. Have a freind coming over tommorrow with a compression guage and a R2 carb that is working very well on his R2 Lark, will switch and see if that makes a differance. Any other thoughts?

lube_sales
07-12-2007, 09:42 PM
The blower is on the car, when the car is cool it idles well and has power, as the car is driven it starts to stamer and lose power as if it were constantly flooding. These are just quess's.
Thanks Ted


quote:Originally posted by bige

I didn't catch the electronic distributor... but even though leaking coolant will cause a lot of smoke and isn't a good condition to drive with I've never see it cause a car to die unless the car is getting so hot that the motor is on the verge of seizing. A crack or a bad head gasket usually effects no more than two cylinders. Bad idle, poor acceleration but bucking to the point of not moving?

Is the blower on the car?

ErnieR

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg

StudeRich
07-12-2007, 09:51 PM
My thought is; it is probably NOT the Carb. If it was bad, you would have Black/Brown smoke from both pipes and it does not explain the left side problems. More likely the compression test will show low cylinders on the left, meaning warped or cracked head, bad gasket, poorly torqued head bolts, and loss of coolant etc.

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

lube_sales
07-12-2007, 09:53 PM
What would make all the plugs wet and black?

GTtim
07-12-2007, 10:05 PM
Has it been doing this ever since the carb was rebuilt? If so, that is where I would look. Floats set too high, metering rods not dropping to the economy position or something like that.

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

bige
07-12-2007, 10:12 PM
Too much fuel or not enough air. Choke may be closing off or carb is flooding. Can't see with the bonnet on. You could try taking the blower belts off and running the car sans the bonnet and watch for symptoms.

Hydraulic lock will stop you but it wouldn't go away by itself.

Maybe the choke therm is mounted such that it's causing the choke to close rather than open when the car warms up. You need to see what's going on in the carb throat when the car starts to act up.

Raw gas will burn almost black smoke but as it washes the oil off the cylinder walls it can be blue gray, water is white and billowy with a strong smell of hot coolant. Water in the cylinders will clean a plug or turn it white. You may be seeing more smoke out of the driver's side simply becase of a slow acting or sticky heat riser. I don't think you have a gasket or warpage issue, at least I'm pulling for you that you don't.

ErnieR

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg

GTtim
07-12-2007, 10:21 PM
quote:Originally posted by GTtim

Has it been doing this ever since the carb was rebuilt? If so, that is where I would look. Floats set too high, metering rods not dropping to the economy position or something like that.
Check the heat riser, they've been known to be installed backwards.

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk


Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

lube_sales
07-13-2007, 10:13 AM
Yes, This has been happening ever since the carb work. Will check this out. Thank You


quote:Originally posted by GTtim

Has it been doing this ever since the carb was rebuilt? If so, that is where I would look. Floats set too high, metering rods not dropping to the economy position or something like that.

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

lube_sales
07-13-2007, 10:16 AM
Great, Thanks Again, will look at trying these things today will keep you informed. Again Thanks for the help.


quote:Originally posted by bige

Too much fuel or not enough air. Choke may be closing off or carb is flooding. Can't see with the bonnet on. You could try taking the blower belts off and running the car sans the bonnet and watch for symptoms.

Hydraulic lock will stop you but it wouldn't go away by itself.

Maybe the choke therm is mounted such that it's causing the choke to close rather than open when the car warms up. You need to see what's going on in the carb throat when the car starts to act up.

Raw gas will burn almost black smoke but as it washes the oil off the cylinder walls it can be blue gray, water is white and billowy with a strong smell of hot coolant. Water in the cylinders will clean a plug or turn it white. You may be seeing more smoke out of the driver's side simply becase of a slow acting or sticky heat riser. I don't think you have a gasket or warpage issue, at least I'm pulling for you that you don't.

ErnieR

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg

ROADRACELARK
07-13-2007, 10:58 AM
Ted,

Call your friend bringing the compression guage over and find out if he can also bring a cylinder leak down tester along also. The compression guage will tell you which cylinder/s is/are at fault, and the leak down tester will tell you what the problem is with each cylinder. Very valuable diagnostic tool. As mentioned before, don't forget to check that heat-riser valve on the right exhaust manifold. Unless you live in a very cold climate, most people take them out. Hope this helps.:)

Dan Miller
Atlanta, GA

[img=left]http://static.flickr.com/57/228744729_7aff5f0118_m.jpg[/img=left]
Road Racers turn left AND right.

lube_sales
07-13-2007, 11:05 AM
OK, Not sure my buddy has this item but will check. Also will check Heat riser, have electronic choke on now, so really do not need it and I will not be driving car in our winters any way.
Again Thanks Ted


quote:Originally posted by ROADRACELARK

Ted,

Call your friend bringing the compression guage over and find out if he can also bring a cylinder leak down tester along also. The compression guage will tell you which cylinder/s is/are at fault, and the leak down tester will tell you what the problem is with each cylinder. Very valuable diagnostic tool. As mentioned before, don't forget to check that heat-riser valve on the right exhaust manifold. Unless you live in a very cold climate, most people take them out. Hope this helps.:)

Dan Miller
Atlanta, GA

[img=left]http://static.flickr.com/57/228744729_7aff5f0118_m.jpg[/img=left]
Road Racers turn left AND right.

gordr
07-13-2007, 11:16 AM
Sounds like carb trouble to me; the wet, black plugs being the definitive clue.

A couple of things to check:
1. Put a vacuum gage on the engine, and see what kind of vacuum it pulls at idle and at mid-RPMS. Maybe not enough vacuum to pull down the metering rods?

2. Fuel pump pressure could be getting high enough to simply force the fuel inlet needle valve off its seat, and cause flooding.

3. Float level set "by the book"? Try setting it about 1/16" LOWER. Today's fuel is a touch less dense than what was sold in the '60s, so floats tend to float deeper in it. Means the fuel has to rise a little higher in the bowl to close the valve if the original setting is used, hence the suggestion to lower it.

4. Consider a brand new carb, or a proper rebuild from a reputable vendor. Metal parts in the carbs do wear, and a simple cleaning and re-gasketing job won't necessarily make them "right".

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

lube_sales
07-13-2007, 12:39 PM
Great Thanks Gord, I think we met at 3 hills one year Would you be around to take a phone call today when we are working on the car? Ken should be here about 1pm and maybe you can give us some further guidence.
Thanks Ted Dirksen


quote:Originally posted by gordr

Sounds like carb trouble to me; the wet, black plugs being the definitive clue.

A couple of things to check:
1. Put a vacuum gage on the engine, and see what kind of vacuum it pulls at idle and at mid-RPMS. Maybe not enough vacuum to pull down the metering rods?

2. Fuel pump pressure could be getting high enough to simply force the fuel inlet needle valve off its seat, and cause flooding.

3. Float level set "by the book"? Try setting it about 1/16" LOWER. Today's fuel is a touch less dense than what was sold in the '60s, so floats tend to float deeper in it. Means the fuel has to rise a little higher in the bowl to close the valve if the original setting is used, hence the suggestion to lower it.

4. Consider a brand new carb, or a proper rebuild from a reputable vendor. Metal parts in the carbs do wear, and a simple cleaning and re-gasketing job won't necessarily make them "right".

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

lube_sales
07-13-2007, 03:42 PM
Could anyone tell Is there a more mondern Carb I can purchase and use in place of the Carter AFB that will work w/o much effort to install on my R2?

bige
07-13-2007, 04:44 PM
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/krate029.jpg

I can walk you through building an Edelbrock bottom/AFB top so you can use the original bonnet. I've been running mine for years now.

ErnieR

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg

John Kirchhoff
07-13-2007, 05:09 PM
Were it me, I'd make sure the choke is opening up completely when it's warmed up. If you wonder, warm the engine up some and then prop the choke plate open with a clothes pin, wire it open or such and see if it drives any better. I'd remove the carb bonnet and try it with no supercharger or air cleaner to get in the way. Unless you've peered into things, you don't know what's in there. Once had a V twin Suzuki that idled fine but ran on one when reved up. The cause? Mud daubers had built a big house in one of the carb intake tracts!

Remember that with carbs, one running too rich runs better when cold and one running too lean runs better when the engine is hot. If you fire it up cold and it will accellerate decently the first minute or so would suggest too rich. When it's hot, if it idles or runs ok with no load but falls flat on it's face when under load would suggest too lean. If it runs lousy hot or cold, loaded or no load would make me think it's something other than fuel delivery. That doesn't mean it isn't in the carb, fuel pump etc, but rather the actual delivery of fuel into the manifold. Symptoms associated with running rich at a constant throttle opening will disappear momentarily when you stomp the throttle if you've disabled the accelerator pump. The sudden drop in vacume reduces the amount of fuel delivered and is why acellerator pumps are used. It's kind of hard to describe, but a too rich miss is more of a soft stumble while too lean is more sharp. Kind of like comparing the way air is released from a whoopee cushion or popping a balloon with a pin. One blubbers while the other pops.

What about the coil? Does it appear to be leaking any oil? Bad coils will sometimes work fine when cold but loose their get up and go when hot. Did you run it any before you installed the electronic ignition? If you still have the old distributor, you might reinstall it and see what happens. The insulating material used internally in the magnetic pickups used in electronic ignitions sometimes breaks down when hot. I've had them work fine when cold and not at all when hot, other times run badly when hot and other times come and go with no rhyme or reason. Since the problem has gotten worse and seems worse when hot and went from bucking (intermittent miss)to now power, I wouldn't discount the ignition.

lube_sales
07-13-2007, 07:48 PM
OK GUys here's the poop on the cars so far. I did a compresion test on the engine it goes as follows: Drivers side #1 100 #2 100 #3 85 #7 95 Passenger Side #2 135 #4 135 #6 110 #8 100
Does not look good. Pulled the plugs again after driving it home yesterday (new Plugs) dry and carbon build up on all 8 plugs. Was ready to pull the intake manifold off when it was decided I needed more than a carb job. Question the Serial number on the engine is RSJ 330 is this correct? It looks right if I look at the parts book. But I can not find the heads in my book serial # 1557582 any one know if these are correct. Again Thanks for all your help I will keep all of this information to determine my next move.
Ted

bige
07-13-2007, 08:42 PM
While your compression seems a little askew I can't believe it would keep the car from running. You could pull two plug wires and dead two cylinders and still drive the car. Did you ever check the valve lash? Pull heads as a last resort.

I'll defer to the group on this...are warped heads and bad head gaskets a common occurence on 289 V8's? I don't have enough Stude experience but plenty of brand 'X' from years in the gas station business. There were very few instances where I saw blown headgaskets and fewer instances of warped heads on anything that was not run dry and overheated. V8's with a couple of burned valves would cruise just fine and only experience a shudder on acceleration and rough idle. Cars that smoked to a point you would get pulled over would run all day polluting as they go.

I just can't see the symptoms you experience caused by internal engine problems. Not saying you might not have a couple of weak cylinders but that's not going to cause you to shudder and stop running.

Was this car sitting idle for awhile? Your low compression and smoke could be from some rings that need to unstick themselves or reseat. Whan I had my heads off during my restoration the car smoked for weeks out of the right bank. After I put a few hundred miles on it stopped. The car had been sitting without running for years.

Don't pull the heads until you've exhausted carb and ignition.

ErnieR

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg

JDP
07-13-2007, 09:02 PM
Both the engine # and head casting number are correct for a R2..

JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
59 3E truck
58 Starlight
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander

N8N
07-13-2007, 09:06 PM
how 'bout the supercharger? ATF will burn white/grey and very smoky. Check the oil level in the blower and keep an eye on it. Might need a blower reseal/rebuild. Vacuum will tend to pull it into the engine at low RPM.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

sbca96
07-13-2007, 09:39 PM
A couple points I didnt see mentioned:

An R2 carb MUST use a special rebuilt kit, as the carb is pressurized
and wont last with the standard sealing kit. If the carb was in a R3
box, you wouldnt have to worry.

Drivers side #1 100 #3 100 #5 85 #7 95
Passenger Side #2 135 #4 135 #6 110 #8 100

That compression is LOW, I mean .. low! I see a breach in #5, that is
working its way to #7. I would expect a decent condition R2 to have
over 135 psi, and nothing lower than 125. I suspect the start of a
blown head gasket (not that common on Stude V8s w/18 bolts per head).
I also suspect improperly adjusted valves, which have burned. I think
you are looking at pulling the heads and rebuilding them. I would do
a good check of the cylinder walls while the heads are off.

You might try re-adjusting the valves, to see if they are too tight. I
REALLY dont like that 85 psi, even stone cold I would get 135 or more
doing a compression test on a basic Stude V8 and high (100k+) miles.

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

PackardV8
07-13-2007, 11:01 PM
FWIW, the book says an R2 should have 160 - 170 psi cranking compression. Agree with Tom, its gotta come apart and if you are lucky, the problem will all be in the heads and gaskets. But again, I've never been that lucky.

thnx, jv.

PackardV8

JDP
07-13-2007, 11:13 PM
The good news is that a valve job with modern seals is a good idea on even a decent running car. You'll be amazed at difference it makes on a otherwise decent engine.

JDP/Maryland
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
64 GT R2
63 GT R2
63 Lark 2 door
59 3E truck
58 Starlight
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander

Chicken Hawk
07-14-2007, 08:59 AM
Another thing to check if you get into the carb is the floats. They can develop tiny holes and get gas in them letting them sink and fuel level gets too high.

wagone
07-14-2007, 10:19 AM
I feel I need clarification on the engine number. The prefix is RSJ? I thought they were RS prefix. What does the J signify? Or could the number actually be RS 1330? And the non-Avanti supercharged engine was JTS--or so I thought? Or was the J engine an inservice factory replacement block in the Avanti?[?][?][?]

wagone and the Old RS Block Avanti

GTtim
07-14-2007, 09:47 PM
I didn't really pay attention to the engine number, but I assume it is part of the date code for a '64 model year engine.

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

wagone
07-14-2007, 10:41 PM
I assumed (there's that word again) that it was a '63 and completely forgot about the date coding on the later cars. I should have known better since JDP said that it was right for the car.

wagone and the Old R2 Avanti

lube_sales
07-15-2007, 10:49 AM
Another Quick Question, In the past I have purchased Intake Gaskets and Cross over blocks from a gent named Jeff Rice ???? (Deep in hock)I tryed his e-mail address and it bounced back. How can I find him or some one else to sell me these items?
Thanks Ted

Anyone know how I can find Jeff?

lube_sales
07-15-2007, 11:10 AM
The car is a 64, I am a bit confused now, are the #'s correct? I am sure I read them right, I am told that it is important to have them correct when ordering engine and head rebuild parts.

bige
07-15-2007, 12:53 PM
My 64 R2 has engine number RSJ325 on the block and the original invoice; and the head #'s are correct as JDP said.

ErnieR

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg

N8N
07-15-2007, 02:10 PM
dumb question, but did you block the throttle open when doing the compression test? not doing so can cause low readings but the comparison between cylinders is still more or less valid.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

GTtim
07-15-2007, 03:55 PM
quote:Originally posted by lube_sales

The car is a 64, I am a bit confused now, are the #'s correct? I am sure I read them right, I am told that it is important to have them correct when ordering engine and head rebuild parts.

The engine number RS J 3 30 just means that your engine, a supercharged Avanti type (RS) was built in the month of August (J) (I think), 1963 (3), on the 30th day (30). Some other engines could have the same number.

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

Mike
07-15-2007, 04:13 PM
Maybe a little elaboration on the engine and head #'s will help.
After July of 1963, the engine # was no longer a unique serial #. It became a date of manufacture code #. All engines of the same type, made on the same day, would have the same #.
RSJ330:
"RS" indicates a supercharged engine made for an Avanti, an "R2".
"J" indicates the month of September.
"3" indicates 1963.
"30" is the 30th day of the month.
The # cast into the heads at the center exhaust port is called the "casting #". Casting # 1557582 is part # 1557580; which is the 9:1 head that was standard for an "R2".
Mike M.

sbca96
07-15-2007, 06:16 PM
I have read that, and remember trying it both open and closed and did
not notice any difference in the readings.[?]

Tom


quote:Originally posted by N8N

dumb question, but did you block the throttle open when doing the compression test? not doing so can cause low readings but the comparison between cylinders is still more or less valid.

lube_sales
07-16-2007, 10:02 AM
Yes we did only after we did 1/2 the engine and had to start over. Not a dumb question. Thanks


quote:Originally posted by N8N

dumb question, but did you block the throttle open when doing the compression test? not doing so can cause low readings but the comparison between cylinders is still more or less valid.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

lube_sales
07-16-2007, 10:04 AM
Thanks for the clarification


quote:Originally posted by Mike

Maybe a little elaboration on the engine and head #'s will help.
After July of 1963, the engine # was no longer a unique serial #. It became a date of manufacture code #. All engines of the same type, made on the same day, would have the same #.
RSJ330:
"RS" indicates a supercharged engine made for an Avanti, an "R2".
"J" indicates the month of September.
"3" indicates 1963.
"30" is the 30th day of the month.
The # cast into the heads at the center exhaust port is called the "casting #". Casting # 1557582 is part # 1557580; which is the 9:1 head that was standard for an "R2".
Mike M.