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wagone
07-10-2007, 12:58 PM
Greetings,

Anyone out there know what the front Avanti ride height should be? Say from the ground to the center of the inner a-arm shafts (at the front of the shafts--say the center of the bolt head) or whatever measurement is appropriate as long as it is definable. I'm trying to determine how much sag my springs have undergone. It is funny to me that the shop manual gives the minimum clearance on the rear "suspension" as 7 1/2 inches to the center of the carrier (when with the correct tires and inflation pressure that is a given), but makes no mention as to ride height at front nor from suspension or frame to ground at front or rear. Conversely, if no known figures are available could someone measure their's at the front with a rebuilt front suspension. Need to include tire size as well. I have 205-70 series tires which I think are about one inch shorter than the original 6.70 tires. Thanks.

wagone and the Old R2 Avanti

64V-K7
07-10-2007, 04:41 PM
I have 60 series tires on the front of mine and it has a 7 1/2" clearance to the spring pocket on the lower arm

Bob Johnstone
http://www.studebaker-info.org/7168422/sig2.jpg

sbca96
07-10-2007, 05:21 PM
A couple different measurements on this thread, stock height can be
figured using the tire diameters :

http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8844

Tom

wagone
07-10-2007, 06:02 PM
Hey Bob,

Thanks for the reply, but measuring that close to the wheel (the spring pocket is only a couple inches in from the wheel) is not going to tell much about whether the springs are sagging. Measuring there will tell more about the diameter of the tires than sagging springs. Need to get on the frame or body and get a measurement.

wagone and the Old R2 Avanti

wagone
07-10-2007, 07:52 PM
My '63 has always seemed to have a severe rake with the back sitting up quite high relative to the front. And the top of the rear tires are FOUR inches below lip of the wheel opening in the body. However, as per Tom's measurement, the bottom of the front fender is 6 1/2 inches from the ground and the front of the x-member on my car is just about 4 7/8" (corrected-had said 5 7/8") from the ground. Same as his! To measure the wheel lip openings to ground is a little tricky as it is a must to use some sort of spirit level to ensure that the measurement is perpendicular to the ground--if not, a pretty large error can be introduced. The bottom line is that my front springs do not appear to be sagging--that is if Tom's tires are close to the same diameter as mine and his suspension is riding on stock or nearly so springs. What started my interest in ride height at this particular moment in time is the photos of Malcom Berry's car in the thread on the '57 sedan started by Bob Palma. I really like the lowered effect of Berry's car although it must be admitted that without a side shot it is difficult to judge the overall effect. Anyway, thanks for the measurements. And as someone mentioned it is difficult to get wheel well openings, tire and wheel diameter, and ride height to look right on an Avanti.

wagone and the Old R2 Avanti

Dick Steinkamp
07-10-2007, 08:22 PM
quote:Originally posted by wagone
And as someone mentioned it is difficult to get wheel well openings, tire and wheel diameter, and ride height to look right on an Avanti.


Agreed. Maybe nearly impossible. I think Malcom nailed it [:p] ! Sorry I don't have a pure side shot of his car. Maybe someone here has one.

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

sbca96
07-10-2007, 08:46 PM
The STYLIZED wheel openings on the Avanti become a nightmare when you
are trying to juggle wheel size, ride height, and offset. You have to
give up one to get another pretty much. While I am not familar with
Malcom's Avanti, I know that I dont have much to play with before my
tires would hit 'something'. The front suspension is untouched, the
rear I HAD to replace the springs because it was dragging its butt. I
used station wagon springs (because some nice member gave them to me
a few years ago when I was unemployeed) to get it back on the road. I
had to add 2 inch thick lowering blocks to bring it down to a height
that was acceptable. Funny, I thought the 4 leaf springs wouldnt be
strong enough, and added a helper spring to them .. this was the very
comical result [:I] :

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/Avantioldimages/too_high/Avanti2high10.jpg

Tom

53k
07-10-2007, 09:51 PM
quote:Originally posted by wagone

Greetings,

Anyone out there know what the front Avanti ride height should be? Say from the ground to the center of the inner a-arm shafts (at the front of the shafts--say the center of the bolt head) or whatever measurement is appropriate as long as it is definable. I'm trying to determine how much sag my springs have undergone. It is funny to me that the shop manual gives the minimum clearance on the rear "suspension" as 7 1/2 inches to the center of the carrier (when with the correct tires and inflation pressure that is a given), but makes no mention as to ride height at front nor from suspension or frame to ground at front or rear. Conversely, if no known figures are available could someone measure their's at the front with a rebuilt front suspension. Need to include tire size as well. I have 205-70 series tires which I think are about one inch shorter than the original 6.70 tires. Thanks.

I bought a 49,000-mile '64 R-2 several years ago and it sat very low in the front. The PO had put 265x60x15s on the rear and 235x60x15s on front (on Cragar mags). I took them off and installed 225x75x15s all around- still low in front. I had a set of original Avanti heavy duty front springs that were taken off a wrecked car in '65. I put them on thinking they would raise it. Gained height- zero. I also noticed that with the wheels pointed straight ahead, one tire was 3/4" further in to the wheel well than the other. The body had apparently been installed with that much offset as there was no indication that it had been off the car. I knew that the car had been wrecked in the right front and I could see where the framer horn had been straightened. I took the car to a body shop and a frame shop and both told me it was completely straight. I bought a set of spring spacers from Jon Myer, but didn't get them installed before I sold the car. So, I never found why it sat so low.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/R-4.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64L.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64P.jpg[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/53K.jpg[/img=right]Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

Laemmle
07-10-2007, 11:20 PM
Wagon,

I have an original report from Studebaker to the AMA which details everything about the car......tomorrow I will check the body and spring specs for you and report back.


quote:Originally posted by wagone

Greetings,

Anyone out there know what the front Avanti ride height should be? Say from the ground to the center of the inner a-arm shafts (at the front of the shafts--say the center of the bolt head) or whatever measurement is appropriate as long as it is definable. I'm trying to determine how much sag my springs have undergone. It is funny to me that the shop manual gives the minimum clearance on the rear "suspension" as 7 1/2 inches to the center of the carrier (when with the correct tires and inflation pressure that is a given), but makes no mention as to ride height at front nor from suspension or frame to ground at front or rear. Conversely, if no known figures are available could someone measure their's at the front with a rebuilt front suspension. Need to include tire size as well. I have 205-70 series tires which I think are about one inch shorter than the original 6.70 tires. Thanks.

wagone and the Old R2 Avanti

StudeRich
07-11-2007, 01:31 AM
AMA...Who the heck are they? American MEDICAL Assoc.[?][?][?] LOL !


quote:Originally posted by Laemmle

Wagon,
I have an original report from Studebaker to the AMA



StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

Laemmle
07-11-2007, 09:26 AM
Automobile Manufactures Association.


quote:Originally posted by StudeRich

AMA...Who the heck are they? American MEDICAL Assoc.[?][?][?] LOL !


quote:Originally posted by Laemmle

Wagon,
I have an original report from Studebaker to the AMA



StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

Laemmle
07-11-2007, 09:47 AM
OK,
This is what I found in the book:
Front bumper bottom to ground at normal section, min. height: 18.5 inches. Bottom of front door to ground, min dimension: 11.125 inches. Min road clearance and location: 5.75 inches (at chassis frame center "X" member). Body sill to ground-front... Measured vertically at foremost point of body sill (rocker panel) excluding flanges and front fender: 8.031 inches.

Hope this is of some help!

grobb284
07-11-2007, 11:45 AM
Malcom Berry did nail the Avanti with the lowered ride height.

The wheels and tire sizes he selected help with that look.

His Wagonaire is just as nice. If you ever see them in person, take time to look them over. The R2 factory experimental air cleaner on the wagon was a rare find.[8D]

wagone
07-11-2007, 03:36 PM
Lammie,

Thanks for your factory measurements. Now if I can just understand exactly what the description of each measurement means I'll know more than I did before. For instance, I don't know what is meant by the center of the X member and it being the low point. The middle or center of X member is not going to be the low point...........unless the frame originally sat DEAD level and the rake was all the result of how the body was attached to the frame. And was there a difference in how the Avanti frame sat relative to the ground as compared to the Lark with the same frame? Also, I don't know what is meant in the last measurement by "excluding the flanges and front fender." Flanges is probably referring to the frame flanges but what is excluding the front fender referring to--unless the measurement is taken at bottom of rocker at some point BEHIND the front fender (front edge of door, perhaps?).

wagone and the Old R2 Avanti

Laemmle
07-11-2007, 05:30 PM
PM me your fax number and I will fax the entire page to you! it has drawings.


quote:Originally posted by wagone

Lammie,

Thanks for your factory measurements. Now if I can just understand exactly what the description of each measurement means I'll know more than I did before. For instance, I don't know what is meant by the center of the X member and it being the low point. The middle or center of X member is not going to be the low point...........unless the frame originally sat DEAD level and the rake was all the result of how the body was attached to the frame. And was there a difference in how the Avanti frame sat relative to the ground as compared to the Lark with the same frame? Also, I don't know what is meant in the last measurement by "excluding the flanges and front fender." Flanges is probably referring to the frame flanges but what is excluding the front fender referring to--unless the measurement is taken at bottom of rocker at some point BEHIND the front fender (front edge of door, perhaps?).

wagone and the Old R2 Avanti

Laemmle
07-14-2007, 10:09 AM
Page e-mailed to you...very easy to understand!

wagone
07-14-2007, 10:29 AM
Laemmie,

E-mailed or faxed? I e-mailed you a fax number yesterday. Please clarify. Thanks.

wagone

Laemmle
07-14-2007, 12:18 PM
I attempted to e-mail the page to you.....it bounced back to me as undeliverable. Please provide a correct e-mail address.

sbca96
07-14-2007, 02:51 PM
For a car that seems to have an impressive following, it sure is not
easy to find a picture of. I wonder if I have even seen it. I wonder
how driveable it is at the "lowered" height, if I drop mine much more
then I will have trouble with speed bumps. I guess if you tuck up the
exhaust well enough (I have a few clamps hanging on my crappy example
on the car now) you can just drag the frame over bumps slowly.....

Anyone have a link, or contact info? I would like to drop my Avanti
about .5 to 1 inch all around, but Eaton Spring can not provide me a
"stock" height starting point to measure from, which I could detirmine
where it will end up. Since the car has had 40+ years to sag, I could
get "lowering" springs that will sit right where it is now![B)]

Tom


quote:Originally posted by grobb284

Malcom Berry did nail the Avanti with the lowered ride height.
The wheels and tire sizes he selected help with that look.

wagone
07-14-2007, 03:23 PM
Laemmie,
My apologies, I did have an incorrect e-mail address in my profile. I've just now changed it. Please try again. And thanks for the patience.

wagone and the Old R2 Avanti

wagone
07-14-2007, 03:33 PM
Tom,

I too am concerned about getting new springs hoping to set the ride height correctly and finding out after all that work that the "new" height is the same as the "old." My Avanti sits in the front at 16 1/2 inches from the bottom of the bumper center piece to the ground. Laemmie has stated that in his "spec" sheet it shows 18 1/2 inches. If I raise mine two inches it looks awfully high in front. A one inch raise at the front bumper to 17 1/2 inches is the highest and still have it look decent. If I jack it up that one inch then the height to the wheel well opening increases about 3/16 to a 1/4 inch and then is just about the 27 11/16 inch which, I believe, you said yours was. But I wouldn't want to install new springs (ok, my king pins could stand a rework) and have it be the same height to ground it is now! QUANDRY; but Laemmie's sheet may shed some light.

wagone and the Old R2 Avanti

PackardV8
07-14-2007, 04:27 PM
FWIW, measuring to the center section of an Avanti front bumper is not good science for comparing ride height. Those who have worked on the bumpers know there is so much slack in the mounting bolt holes and the whole bumper assembly is like a piece of spaghetti as far as rigidity. It could move up or down an inch or two depending on where it was tightened.

Tires make a huge difference in frame height measurements. Comparing the OEM tires with the larger 15" radials, not to mention the huge 17, 18 and 19" which some are using, makes true comparisons difficult.

thnx, jv



PackardV8

sbca96
07-14-2007, 05:02 PM
Agreed, I think that the places a mesurement should be made, is frame
and wheel openings. This is needed to compare the spacers between the
frame and body .. which MIGHT be different between Avantis. I believe
I added the diameter of my aftermarket wheels AND a distance from the
center of the wheel to the ground - which IS the real number to be a
concern here. Keep in mind that even though a 75 series tire on a 15
inch rim, and a 45 series tire on a 17 inch rim could have different
overall diameters, they COULD have the same distance from the center
to ground due to the marshmellow-like sidewall flex the 75 series tire
has. The center to ground is the measurement that counts here.

Tom


quote:Originally posted by wagone
If I jack it up that one inch then the height to the wheel well opening increases about 3/16 to a 1/4 inch and then is just about the 27 11/16 inch which, I believe, you said yours was.


quote:Originally posted by PackardV8

FWIW, measuring to the center section of an Avanti front bumper is not good science for comparing ride height ...... Tires make a huge difference in frame height measurements. Comparing the OEM tires with the larger 15" radials, not to mention the huge 17, 18 and 19" which some are using, makes true comparisons difficult.

wagone
07-14-2007, 05:03 PM
True, true, true PackardV8. We're trying to reduce the myriad of differences which could (will) affect this. Somewhere there has to be a standard or reference point.....admittedly subjective. But ya gotta start somewhere.

wagone and the Old R2 Avanti

Dick Steinkamp
07-14-2007, 05:15 PM
It's just me, but I'd be putting it where it looks the best, not where it was originally (if it can even be determined where it was originally). All stock Studes seem to be nose high which (IMHO) is a pretty awkward stance. I remember seeing pictures of cars being photographed for Studebaker ads with the opposite side from the camera jacked up to lower the side nearest the camera. Even Studebaker didn't like how their cars sat stock [:0].

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

sbca96
07-14-2007, 05:23 PM
I have been pretty happy with this height;) :

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Cover_Picture_Day/L_Covershot2_011a.jpg

Tom

wagone
07-14-2007, 07:23 PM
Tom,
That's not the BEST picture to judge how the wheels fit their openings, but it does look about right (allowing for the photograph, the shadows and the angle of the shot). And what did you use: one or two inch lowering blocks in rear?[?][?][?][?]
wagone and the R2 Avanti

sbca96
07-14-2007, 09:07 PM
True .. this one seems to show the rake the best :

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Cobra_brake_breakin/cobra_brake_testdrive004a.jpg

I have to use 2 inch lowering blocks, BUT that was with Wagon springs.
The original Avanti springs were completely blown out with a reverse
arc, & fan-ed out leafs. They were shot. It kinda dragged its butt.
I am not happy using the blocks, unless I can eventually use the holes
I had put in them to mount a traction bar I am playing around with in
my head. I had two holes bored through the steel block from front to
rear to mount "something" to. Adding lowering blocks will increase a
leaf springs ability to wrap up adding to wheel hop.[V]

Tom

Laemmle
07-15-2007, 11:38 AM
Please send me via pm the e-mail..I need to send you the attachment from my e-mail


quote:Originally posted by wagone

Laemmie,
My apologies, I did have an incorrect e-mail address in my profile. I've just now changed it. Please try again. And thanks for the patience.

wagone and the Old R2 Avanti