Engine: Solid Lifters Ticking on 289 V8

[carussell]

Since this is my first Studebaker, just how much "ticking" is acceptable from a 289 V8 with solid lifters? I had never heard mine before with the exhaust system and mufflers in place, so this now concerns me somewhat.
Oil pressure is 30-40 when idling and increases upon acceleration, so that is not an issue.
What is the best method for adjustment?

[SN-60]

To: carussell,--- Yes, a bit of subtle 'clicking' from the valve train is OK, that's indication You have some clearance there which, as You know, needs to be there. No clearance=No valves!

[55 56 PREZ 4D]

"If their quite when the engine is cold their too tight.
If their noisy then the engine is hot their too loose."
A LITTLE bit loose is better than too tight. clickety-click

[studebaker-R2-4-me]

After reading your post I stumbled upon "Clark's" Studeblogger on how to adjust valves. Here is a REALLY good write up on adjusting valves for someone who has not done it before.

http://studeblogger.blogspot.ca/2011_06_01_archive.html

Good luck with adjusting the valves. It's rather easy once you've jumped in and started to wrench.

Allen

[Mike Van Veghten]

If there's a question, dig into the problem.
Just adjust the valves.

And despite above comments, "accuratly" adjusted valves "will" be smooth and quiet.
BUT...also as said, I adjust the intake carefully using book numbers, and I adjust the exhaust a little on the loose side. By loose, I mean an additional loose .001". This will make a slight rocker/valve noise.

Why, because the effect of the lack of lead in the fuel does not cushion the valve hitting the seat any longer. The intake is only slightly effected, but the exhaust is effected much more. Thus, seat ressesion is much higher on the exhaust side. When the exh. gets quiet....time to adjust...!

Mike

[55 56 PREZ 4D]

Mike:
Which "above comments" said valves couldn't be quite ?
Are you saying that for someone who hasn't adjusted valves before or is unsure of how "tight " or "accurate" to adjust them, that they should work toward having "no" noise ?
There is a distinct chance of getting them too "tight".
It seems that until someone is quite experienced or confident "a little loose" clickety-click NOT clackety-clack would be the safe way to go. And would not affect performance in an average car.
Hi-performance NOT included.
With all your experience, even you go for a slight noise.

[carussell]

If there's a question, dig into the problem.
Just adjust the valves.

And despite above comments, "accuratly" adjusted valves "will" be smooth and quiet.
BUT...also as said, I adjust the intake carefully using book numbers, and I adjust the exhaust a little on the loose side. By loose, I mean an additional loose .001". This will make a slight rocker/valve noise.

Why, because the effect of the lack of lead in the fuel does not cushion the valve hitting the seat any longer. The intake is only slightly effected, but the exhaust is effected much more. Thus, seat ressesion is much higher on the exhaust side. When the exh. gets quiet....time to adjust...!

Mike

If I may interject, isn't the lack of ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate) in oil the reason for lifter/cam wear and resulting noise over time, not the lack of lead in fuel? I know that hardened seats are necessary on older automotive heads, but would not deterioration there actually cause the valve stem to essentially "elongate", in effect, requiring loosening and not tightening of the valve lash? As the seat wears, the valve will actually nest further into the head, causing the stem to protrude further, upwards, towards the rocker arm...yes or no? That may be what you are saying already, so I believe a "looser" setting would be acceptable (as you suggest) for exhaust valve lash. But that becomes an issue of being too quiet as opposed to being too noisy.

[Mike Van Veghten]

55 56 -
This is where my comments came from.

Yes, a bit of subtle 'clicking' from the valve train is OK, that's indication You have some clearance there which, as You know, needs to be there. No clearance=No valves!

Clearance (valve to rocker) yes, clicking...not a requirement. Properly done, by the Stude manual, will be nice and quiet. Yea...if you really listen or use a stethoscope, you should hear a nice smooth, VERY light clatter, but no obvious clicking.



carussell -

If I may interject, isn't the lack of ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate) in oil the reason for lifter/cam wear and resulting noise over time, not the lack of lead in fuel?

No......it isn't..!
If oil is present at the valve to head seats...you have more problems than just loose valves..! You need new stem seals and or new piston rings.
Plus, this ZDDP thing has gotton so blown out of proportin it's ridiculous.. This is also all over the net..!
I've used Castrol GTX and Lucas oil stabilizer in my "daily driver" 259 Lark since I bought it over ten years ago which I've put over 90,000 miles on so far with NO cam/lifter related problems...!!
BUT....the exhaust rockers need to be adjusted three times for every one time for the intake rockers..
THIS...is a lead (or lack of..!) problem. Look it up...this is a known problem for heads with "soft" seats. It's not a secret, been known for years. This is why, that (before alum. heads), the factories induction hardened the exhaust (only) seats.

Mike

[Dick Steinkamp]

I agree with Mike. Valves properly set on a Stude V8 are quiet. It may FEEL safer to have them making a little noise because then you think the valves are closing completely...but you'd have to insure you are hearing all 16 clatter and not 15 or 14 with one or two set too tight...probably impossible to tell the diff.

A down side of having them set loose relative to the spec is that the valves won't be opening as far or staying open as long which will hurt performance and mileage.

[carussell]

55 56 - carussell - No......it isn't..!
If oil is present at the valve to head seats...you have more problems than just loose valves..! You need new stem seals and or new piston rings.
Plus, this ZDDP thing has gotton so blown out of proportin it's ridiculous.. This is also all over the net..!
I've used Castrol GTX and Lucas oil stabilizer in my "daily driver" 259 Lark since I bought it over ten years ago which I've put over 90,000 miles on so far with NO cam/lifter related problems...!!
BUT....the exhaust rockers need to be adjusted three times for every one time for the intake rockers..
THIS...is a lead (or lack of..!) problem. Look it up...this is a known problem for heads with "soft" seats. It's not a secret, been known for years. This is why, that (before alum. heads), the factories induction hardened the exhaust (only) seats. Mike

I guess I missed the part where I suggested there was oil present at the valve to head seats. Please re-read my interjection as that statement is simply not there. In any event, the ZDDP concern is very legitimate on older vehicles utilizing non-roller lifter systems as is the concern with unleaded fuels and valve seats. You can "get by" if you choose and perhaps everything will be just rosy. It's still a free country; so choose wisely.

[Dick Steinkamp]

In any event, the ZDDP concern is very legitimate on older vehicles utilizing non-roller lifter systems

It's a very real concern to those companies that are making a killing selling ZDDP .

There is as much FACTUAL info in the internet that points to plenty of new anti scuff agents being in modern oils (even though ZDDP has been reduced), and the fact that modern oils have to be "backwards compatible", and that one of the tests of any new oil is with a sliding tappet camshaft engine, and that TOO MUCH ZDDP is worse than not enough as far a lifter and camshaft wear goes.

I think you take a big risk and expense "doctoring" oil with something that may actually be harmful if used in the wrong quantity.

Here's one article...

http://www.nonlintec.com/sprite/oils_and_zddp.pdf

"For ordinary use, oils simply do not need additional additives. Even the most ordinary motor oils have large amounts of additives as delivered, in concentrations chosen after considerable, sophisticated testing and research. In fact, additional additives can be detrimental; there are lots of horror stories of additives damaging engines, and the FTC has occasionally come down hard on oil-additive marketers. Whenever you see a claim that some additive (or any other substance, for that matter) has only positive effects and no downside, your BS detector should sound an ear-piercing alarm."

"A higher level of ZDDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling."

"In summary, I don’t think that the near-hysteria on this issue is justified. I do believe that some degree of consideration is necessary, if only to avoid oils having unusually low ZDDP concentrations and to take special care in break-in."

[Mike Van Veghten]

carussell -

Please read Dick's post above.
It clarifies my comment about the same matter

Plus, this ZDDP thing has gotton so blown out of proportin it's ridiculous.. This is also all over the net..!

I took your "seat" comment slightly out of context, but also read into it the rest of your comment.

Also -

I know that hardened seats are necessary on older automotive heads, but would not deterioration there actually cause the valve stem to essentially "elongate", in effect,

Now this would be interesting to see with the wimpy little springs Studes use...!
This would be a no. While in actually, stems WILL elongate to a degree that mear mortals cannot accuratly measure, plastic deformation (permanatly streatch) will not occure with Stude springs and at the rpm's that most Stude engines can reach.
Now if you mean will the "entire" valve has moved from its desired, as designed location in the head with seat deteriation/resession, then yes.
And as for being too quiet...!? Quiet is quiet. Rockers that need adjusting, doesn't need a reason, too tight or too loose, should be adjusted.

If one lets things go too long and doesn't "feel" the rough idle and realize the rockers need a good checking/adjusting...could end up with a costly cylinder head repair bill.

Mike

[SN-60]

To: carussell,------------ Despite all the very well intentioned advice above, remember :In a Studebaker V-8, always adjust valve lash with the engine thoroughly warmed up and running at low idle. If You end up with a bit of
valve 'clatter'.....go with it ...all is well! (No clearance=No valves)

[carussell]

...Now this would be interesting to see with the wimpy little springs Studes use...!
This would be a no. While in actually, stems WILL elongate to a degree that mear mortals cannot accuratly measure, plastic deformation (permanatly streatch) will not occure with Stude springs and at the rpm's that most Stude engines can reach.
Now if you mean will the "entire" valve has moved from its desired, as designed location in the head with seat deteriation/resession, then yes.
And as for being too quiet...!? Quiet is quiet. Rockers that need adjusting, doesn't need a reason, too tight or too loose, should be adjusted.

If one lets things go too long and doesn't "feel" the rough idle and realize the rockers need a good checking/adjusting...could end up with a costly cylinder head repair bill.

Mike

It appears you missed the statement, "As the seat wears, the valve will actually nest further into the head, causing the stem to protrude further, upwards, towards the rocker arm"; this is what I meant by "elongate" as - in effect - the valve stem will actually rise higher on the rocker side of the head (as the seat wears), pulled into a higher position by even the "wimpiest of springs". But, we are simply talking hypothetically.
I read the article suggested by Dick Steinkamp and - if read entirely - actually recommends a ZDDP additive, but in moderation. That is perhaps why something like 'ZDDP-Plus' may not be acceptable in all applications. Yes...quite often the snake-oil salesmen try to make a quick buck off the fear factor; it always happens. I am always a bit leary of articles published by competing sources as they always have an ax to grind. As a past failure analyst in the tech world, I have always been told a a good analyst could make a funeral look like a wedding.
As with most everything, to excess may be hazardous, in moderation everything is just fine. Kinda like women and alcohol (and perhaps cars).

[carussell]

To: carussell,------------ Despite all the very well intentioned advice above, remember :In a Studebaker V-8, always adjust valve lash with the engine thoroughly warmed up and running at low idle. If You end up with a bit of
valve 'clatter'.....go with it ...all is well! (No clearance=No valves)

I tend to agree with you. I thought about trying the cold adjust first, but it just seems a lot simpler to adjust if the engine is running at a low idle; all can be adjusted and then be done. The cold method becomes intensive and there is always doubt, "is that really TDC (aka UDC) or did I stop just short or go just beyond?"